LpBrown90

I'm really kind of shocked nobody mentioned Lance Ellis. He belongs on that list.

Awesome. Thank you! I guess I didn't look hard enough :-[

Maybe I missed it, but were the results ever posted?

I've known a couple Michigan state champs and an Illinois state champ. They called themselves state champs, not "state champ in their division or class."

You can call yourself anything want, reality is totally different thing. Every kid I have talked to here has told me that  they wished they had one class. They just can't do anything about it .  It's just the best they can do. and if you lived in either place you would hear different stories.

What do the school administers call those kids that win individual championships in Michigan? I am curious how they are recognized by their schools, newspapers, friends and family.  Are they considered state champions or just a tournament champion?

They are called "State Champions in there division or class" Not a  "State Champion" .  Believe me the topic gets brought up more than you think. Whether a kid gets beat by a another  kid during the year but don't have to wrestle him at state. That is garbage and truly hard to follow. You would have a more legitimate State Champion doing BCS Way. ATLEAST you would have one champion. If Indiana ever does this, I would  not come watch anymore.

Do kids toss their medals in the trash after they win or are they proud of their accomplishments?  

 

Are kids learning about hard work, dedication, sportsmanship and all that other fun stuff in a classed system?

 

No they don't, but lets use some good old commen sense here. In a class system you are "Not A State Champion", You are basically just a winner of another big tournament. Great accomplishment? Yes! State Champion in youre weight class" No". I don't have a problem with a class system for a team format but Individual state it is really hard to follow and quite dumb.

Just like all those Ohio, Michigan and Illinois kids are disgraced by their accomplishments.  Go find someone from a classed state and ask them what they placed in their state tournament.  See if they mention what class it was.

A class system in an Individual sport is pointless. I live and coach in Michigan now, and you are right not to many kids will mention what class they are, but everyone I talk too wishes there class system was more like Indiana.

A college dual, a big 10 dual, at a high school!!!!  That is such a joke, no wonder Indiana wrestling has zero respect!!  It's insane to have the defending national champions, a team that averages 10,000 in attendance and has set the NCAA record for attendance on several occassions to be put in a high school gym.   What will be funny is that the dual will be a quick and easy bloodbath  Purdue will be lucky to win a match! 

 

 

 

It's really to bad that you look at this as a bad thing but nobody says you have to go. I'm sure the attendance will be quite good. I think Purdue should be improved and Indiana has quite a bit of respect as far as I know. ???

MacDaddy- Penn had 300 kids in their elementary program last year!!  Numbers are out of this world out at Penn- Harper does a good job of spreading the word.

Awesome. I didn't know it was that high. Harper is a great coach and great guy. Good luck Penn

Class wrestling is horrible for the sport and anyone who advocates it is a democrat who just wants to be given everything in life and never have to work for it.  If you are for class wrestling move to Canada and become a sissy Canadian for all I care.

AMEN I can agree 100% on that..

this topic may be the new class wrestling topic!!!   :-X

I hope that never happens in Indiana. The only way you are going to make some happy(and more even) on this topic is if wrestlers are only allowed to wrestle against someone the same age and weight.  :

The one thing that I do not like is that we have one weight class that is almost exclusively for underclassmen.  We shouldn't have to do that to keep this sport going.  

 

Do you have a problem with having some of the heavier weights being dominated by upperclassmen?  285 is pretty much exclusively for upperclassmen.  Very few freshmen and sophomores weigh close to that much. They may be heavies but they are not near the weight.

 

I think we all know there are a LOT of underclassmen in the heavier weights, but good enough to be varisty at a bigger school and good enough to make it to state? Not usually. I've known a lot of bigger kids that come out freshman year, get tired of getting beat on and just quit. In my opinion 103 being dominated by underclassmen helps curve that and makes them better wrestlers when they get older and get to the middle weights. Just my opinion and feeling, who knows if there's data to support it.

I agree with what you are saying.  I see exactly what you are describing all the time.

 

This is where it gets hairy.  Those bigger kids as freshmen come in and are JV, while their counterparts at the lighter weights are varsity.  They both could very well be equal in ability, yet one does not have the same level of competition for a varsity spot or even in varsity matches.  To me that deters the bigger kids from sticking it out.  These bigger kids aren't world beaters, but they are solid enough wrestlers that will contribute as a junior and senior.

 

When I was a freshman and a varsity wrestler it was cool to walk around with my letter jacket on.  It was the coolest thing in the world, but I earned that letter because I was blessed with being small, not because of my athletic ability.  There were numerous kids in the school that gave me a hard time because of it.  There were two athletes in my class that earned varsity letters as freshmen.  It was me and another kid that was a gifted runner and lettered in cross country.  Comparing us two as far as athletic ability was laughable.  

 

I'm not saying it is like this at every school, but this is becoming more and more the norm with the new weight regulations and other factors(kids starting school later, etc).  We should not be a sport that hands out awards based on size instead of athletic ability.  

I am now starting to get a little bit of where you are coming from. I think it is too bad that people look or looked at it that way. Wrestling is the fairest sport that there is possible based on weight classes alone. I never had to deal with that and I think that someone accomplishents speaks for themselves. That's the major reason alot of kids choose this sport that are not tall enough or big enough for basketball or football(lets be honest) . I understand now that you are only trying to be fair and it might be fairer with the weight change but I see it being mostly the same with less forfeits.

Facts are Facts, but the  real facts are in the wrestling room. You bring up the facts of  the underclassmen being catered to by the lighter weights but the lighter weights is where the real wrestling at. I have followed this sport since I left it in college  and coach up in Michigan . The facts I have seen all through high school and beyound is the upper weight classes  may be more dominated juniors and seniors but the talent and skill  level is not even really close. Just because you wrestle JV till you are a junior or senior means nothing. Skill neutralizes strength in almost any sport. My freinds and I

still go to the State tournament every year and always leave when they start getting to the heavier weights because it's basically two guys tying up until one of them goes down. Its sloppier until they go onto college and develop a little bit more to which most  probably will choose football.  The facts are in the talent not in youre stats. If you believe in all youre stats then you are just  blind.

So the only weight classes that you find exciting are 103, 112 and some of 119?  At 125lbs+ the upperclassmen to underclasssmen ratio is 4 to 1.  

 

Since you say that no real wrestling happens in the upper weights, why are  you discrediting their accomplishments?  I, nor any of the other "haters," have never stated that there is not "real" wrestling going on at any weight.

No, I  enjoy the heaviers a little bit better now up to 171 but mostly only up to 160. I think alot of the heavier weights classes are undeveloped  on their  skill.(that is what I watch) . I practice alot with the heavier weights now because I weigh close to 170lbs.  And yes there was alot of bashing on the 103lbs.  State Champion credentials and Freshman coming that probably chose the sport by size. All I'm saying is I like the move to 106 based on forfeits alone. The truth is not always in the facts but it  is in the ROOM AND ON THE MAT..

Facts are Facts, but the  real facts are in the wrestling room. You bring up the facts of  the underclassmen being catered to by the lighter weights but the lighter weights is where the real wrestling at. I have followed this sport since I left it in college  and coach up in Michigan . The facts I have seen all through high school and beyound is the upper weight classes  may be more dominated juniors and seniors but the talent and skill  level is not even really close. Just because you wrestle JV till you are a junior or senior means nothing. Skill neutralizes strength in almost any sport. My freinds and I

still go to the State tournament every year and always leave when they start getting to the heavier weights because it's basically two guys tying up until one of them goes down. Its sloppier until they go onto college and develop a little bit more to which most  probably will choose football.  The facts are in the talent not in youre stats. If you believe in all youre stats then you are just  blind.

There is nothing wrong when elite and good underclassmen are in the line-up.  We have a unique sport where size doesn't always make you better, but its technique, conditioning, heart, etc.  

 

The problem I see is that it doesn't take a good wrestler to make varsity at the lower weights.  Many times it just takes being  the right size and showing up to the practice room.  If coaches have to lower themselves to getting kids out because of a varsity letter, then we aren't doing the sport any good.  My recruiting pitch to a 105lbs freshman shouldn't be, "you'll get a varsity letter," it should be, "you get to kick some butt, be a part of a great team, have a cool coach:), and have fun with some great teammates."  

 

The stats are good to show trends and mark red flags.  There were 65 freshmen in the state last year that qualified for semi-state.  That equals out to about 7%, which I could honestly say 7% of the freshmen in the state are good to elite wrestlers.  The problem lies in that 29 of those 65 state qualifiers were at 103lbs.  I really can't fathom that almost half of the best wrestlers in the state in the class of 2012 are at the same weight class.  That does not make sense to me.  

 

Your next question would be about the elite Olympic level wrestlers at lighter weights.  Well, where do we get those types of wrestlers at the higher weights?  They start out at middle and upper weights and take some lumps when they start out because the older and wiser upperclassmen are a little better.  That has not killed the sport at the upper weights because the freshmen have to wrestle juniors and seniors and take some losses from them.  

 

Raising the lowest weight to 106 or 107lbs will only help the sport by making more kid eligible for the weight class.  More kids means more competition and will also mean more older kids will be able to wrestle that weight.  Wrestling has endured two other weight changes of the lowest weights and survived.  The sport didn't die back in 1969 when they raised 95lbs to 98lbs.  Nothing drastic happened either in 1988 when they eliminated 98lbs for 103lbs either.  

I would have to say that the only thing I agree with you on is youre last paragraph. How were there 29 qualifieres at 103lbs at state when only 16 qualify? Even if you meant semi-state that is a great accomplishment for freshman in one class system state. I ACTUALLY KIND OF LIKE THE MOVE TO 106 but knocking the lighter weights again is absurd. I remember being able to kick the crap out heavier weights all through high school and wrestled 98lbs through 135.  I am sorry but Nobody told me when  I started in this sport when I was 5 and had to beat out a senior for varsity as a freshman(and wrestled every year around) that it didn't really mean anything because I was a lighter weight. If I would have known that I would have stuck with the other sports I was good in. You are making an easy move into a sore subject  and  I guess some of us are better of talking to a peice of PAPER.

 

You all know I am not in favor of the moving.  What is bothering me now are these posts people toss in there from time to time talking about transfering and getting scholarships that will get them these great educations and great jobs, or else they will be in a factory.

 

*First of all, some of the best guys I know work in factories, there is nothing wrong with this.

 

*Second, this is not basketball, no one is making or breaking their life depending on if they get a scholarship for wrestling, as nearly all are to tiny schools for partial money. This keeps being put out there like there are all these guys getting these wonderful college tuitions paid for. (It isn't happenin')

*If you were good enough to get some college money at one school, you'll be good enough at the other.

 

*...And several people have made a great point - despite all these comments no one can come up with ONE EXAMPLE of this ever occuring!!!

You have stated some very good points. When did this start happening? I am fully against this, but the sad part is that the  people who do this and agree with it will do it anyway. I don't ever remember this being an issue back in the day but maybe it was. I just know how I feel when it comes loyalty and High School athletics and those will be the people I will root for.

If you switch for athletic reasons then you should not be cheered for in my opinion! Call me whatever you want, but there is a small school called Pioneer who send wrestlers to state and even to college to wrestle, and they only have 20 or so kids each year (that would be a good  year.) You can not blame it on practice partners or coaches. If you want it you can earn it no matter where you are. Switching for athletic reasons is a cop out!

:oRight on brother, couldn't agree with you more. Ultimately good coaches can help you but in an individual sport they can't compete for you(that's where your own hard work has to pays off).  That's what's wrong with this senerio these good kids need to lead by example and not flee and maybe there program will excell. That all  comes down to loyalty. I think Union COUNTY is another example! How many kids are there even in that school. Theyve produced champions as well. Penn High School is another great program with a great head coach that has never had an individual state champion yet but has had numerous state place winners who has lost some of there wrestlers to mishawaka. Where's the loyalty?

you would hope that  "pride and honor" would come into play at some point.

;)Agreed, It is really too young for atheletes to be doing this. They really need to crack down on it . There

are plenty of camps and things wrestlers can do in the off season to improve. If they can't figure that out, that is there

own problem. Suck it up!!

 

What if your son or daughter was in elementary school and was having trouble understanding/learning from their teacher.  You tried talking to her and she told you that your son or daughter just wasn't catching on to her way of teaching.  But you know another teacher at another school in town would be a good fit for your child. Do you ask for a transfer or just tell your child to suck it up?

You are talking about something that is totally different. We are talking about kids switching schools  for athletics(which I used to think was more important then classes) for better partners in wrestling. That is garbage a great wrestler is going to be great wrestler by what you do and put into on youre own if you have to. You have camps all summer, tournaments to wrestle in and whatever else kind of work you can put in on youre own. I had the same coach when I started when I was young until I was a junior in high school and disliked my coach very much my senior year but thats what you have to deal with. I would go home after practice and work out and run on my own because I was not always happy with the partners/workouts at practice. I never thought about switching schools. I just really think people are going over the top when they start recruiting and switching schools for athletics. If you are doing it for the right reasons early on for academics or better living and working surroundings that is different but if you are  switching  schools based soley atheletics. I'm sorry but I have are hard time rooting for ya! The other only reason I feel it is  o.k. is if parents and freinds  decide at an early age to send there kids to the same school based on there early friendship. Anything other than that I think is sad by the coaches and parents. You are basically Bandwagoners

you would hope that  "pride and honor" would come into play at some point.

;)Agreed, It is really too young for atheletes to be doing this. They really need to crack down on it . There

are plenty of camps and things wrestlers can do in the off season to improve. If they can't figure that out, that is there

own problem. Suck it up!!

Why is moving the weight class up 4 lbs seen as discrediting?

I don't think it does all. If anything it will probably make it even  better. I always said all along I'm and neither

for against the move. I am just really shocked at all the hating on how it is now, on past champions and what they did after and so on. I will always enjoy the lighter weight classes regardless and everyone has there own opionions. I still remember being in 7th grade and watching Ellis beat seniors at 98lbs. Now, I know things have changed alot, but to not  give any credit because somebody won state at 103lbs. and maybe only placed a couple of other times is ridiculous. That is really  hating. IT IS BETTER TO BE THAN TO BE A NEVER HAVE BEEN  THAT is all I'M SAYING.   ;D

So stating facts is hating?  I am a big "hater" then.  When I add 1+1 and get 2, I'm a hater on that number 4 aren't I?

That's not what I am saying!  You have alot of facts to back up on  how you feel ,and that is fine. I simply stating that a little more credit ought to be given no matter what. I'm just really  suprised I should say on how some discredit this weight class all together and I am not talking about you.  I think there are alot more wrestlers who carry on their careers on into college and further because they were lighter weights, then those who  wrestle because they like it at the heavier weights and then choose football as there number 1 in college.

Why is moving the weight class up 4 lbs seen as discrediting?

I don't think it does all. If anything it will probably make it even  better. I always said all along I'm and neither

for against the move. I am just really shocked at all the hating on how it is now, on past champions and what they did after and so on. I will always enjoy the lighter weight classes regardless and everyone has there own opionions. I still remember being in 7th grade and watching Ellis beat seniors at 98lbs. Now, I know things have changed alot, but to not  give any credit because somebody won state at 103lbs. and maybe only placed a couple of other times is ridiculous. That is really  hating. IT IS BETTER TO BE THAN TO BE A NEVER HAVE BEEN  THAT is all I'M SAYING.  ;D

I'll break this down better for you.

 

In the past 9 years(2000-2008) there have been 48 state champions that were non-seniors.

 

Of the 48 this is how they fared the next year.

31 repeated as champs

3 were 2nd the next year

7 were 3rd place the next year

1 was 4th place

1 was 7th place

3 were state qualifiers

1 Did not wrestle(Wesley English)

1 I could not find(Jeremy Van Alstyne)

 

The only weight class were a champ failed to place the next year was.... 103lbs, and it happened three times!

That's the way it goes! There is still should be no reason to discredit a kid because of size, let alone a state champion at any weight class. That is too bad, because like I said before there is alot more wrestling going on in the

lighter weight classes than there is  higher  football/wrestling weight classes that nobody is mentiong. I would much rather be 103lb state champ than upper weight class winner anyday. You always got time to grow

I am done with this discussion . I think when anyone says" that any kid of the street off the street can be competitive" is completley wrong, because this sport takes hard work(year around work). I think any decision they make will work out just fine, I just don't don't understand some people's reasoning. This is not about age wrestling or size. If eliminates ff's. Great!!! The only thing I hope is that Indiana never goes to a class system. I live and help coach in Michigan and I have the hardest time following  and understanding there class system. It's just not the same.

I agree alot with your points especially if it eliminates more forfeits, that is only good for the sport. All I have ever said is  103 lb weight class to me is exciting to watch who cares if they are mostly underclassmen. If I remember correctly

at either 189 or 215 STATE  last year there were no returning state place winners so which is worse?

No returning state placewinners means the weight class was senior dominated the year before.  It is harder for a freshman-junior to qualify and place at weights that are 152lbs+. 

While that might be true, it also could be that alot of the heavier weights begin later. I wish there was a way

of figuring that out. Wrestling is an outlet because of the lighter  weight classes that's why I started when I was 5 and continued on into college because I was smaller. Now, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying I would be willing to bet that alot of the lighter weights probably begin a little earlier. That being said I am all for the change to 106 based on forfeits alone not on age.

You keep wanting to point out a few freshmen that are good.  I'm glad there are young kids that are great wrestlers, but if you can't see the light in that juniors and seniors are generally the better wrestlers then I really can't go any further.  My team this year will be stock full of about 8 seniors, guess what, that means we will have a good team.  A couple years ago it was the exact opposite and while we had a good season it is nothing like we are expecting this year.  I surely hope our kids are better wrestlers as seniors than they were as freshmen. 

 

The kids that you keep pointing out that are great wrestlers as freshmen will not be hurt by a weight class change.  Good wrestlers are good wrestlers no matter the weight class.  I have never heard a kid state that he was a good wrestler because of the weight class and not conditioning, technique, heart, etc.   

 

As far as the Olympic level that you are so worried about, have you forgotten where we get the 66kg+ wrestlers?  Yes, ate place winnerthey start out at higher weights and some even have to take lumps as freshmen and sophomores until they mature and become great wrestlers.  Why can't that happen at the lower weights?  Why is it alright for my 130lbs freshman who is a very good wrestler be forced to ride the pine while a classmate of his is drug off the street and gets a varsity letter because of his SIZE and not his ability?

 

The 15-19 year old range you talk about is something that can be argued to death.  In Indiana the youngest kids will be 14.25 years old to 14.46 years old from the beginning of the season to the end of the season.  If you figure the average kid to be in the middle that means they start out the season at 14.75 years old and end it at 14.96 years old.  So saying kids are 15 years old during the wrestling season is right in line with the age restrictions. 

 

I agree alot with your points especially if it eliminates more forfeits, that is only good for the sport. All I have ever said is  103 lb weight class to me is exciting to watch who cares if they are mostly underclassmen. If I remember correctly

at either 189 or 215 STATE  last year there were no returning state place winners so which is worse?