ENoblewrestling

As for the other parts of the quote-  I think that this statement is very dispariging toward Carrols coaches.  If anyone can tell me how it isn't I want to know.  For me to say that ________________(insert coach) could go to Carroll and it would be a winner is a very low blow towards Carrol's coaches, if it isn't please let me know how.  They do a great job, and have great wrestlers and a very stong program.  I don't see why if a new coach came in then all of a sudden no one could compete with them.  

Secondly very few put in the off season work that Y2 does, so dont go telling me that is a reason that he shouldn't have to listen to what I am saying. I think he does a good job, I think I do a good job.  So why can't we have resonable discussion about things? We both put in alot of time, and love the sport.  We may have differing opinions on classing the indivual side, but that doesn't mean we can't have discussion.  

Buscowrestling, you are a fairly new coach in the area, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you put Whitko's coach at Carroll or Homestead for 3-5 years, there is little chance Garrett and Whitko would compete with them.  If you could clone him, put him at Carroll and Whitko at the exact same time, Carroll would DOMINATE!!!  If you don't believe that, you have much to learn.  You are in a good situation at Busco because of the other coaches you work with outside of the wrestling program.  They are phenomenal coaches and avid wrestling supporters, maybe that is part of why you like it there.  When you put in the time that Y2 does in the off season with your kids, then he will probably listen to your points.

Quote from Ace2212

I want to respond to a couple of things here.  First off I agree with Ace on the point that those around our wrestling program (AD, Football, Track coaches) support wrestling and that does help us.  We also work with them by lifting the BFS program that in my opinion helps all of our Athletes.  I am fine with my guys doing mulltiple sports.  IMO it is acctually benificial.  Our team had 27 wrestlers this year.  Between 17-20 of them are three sport Atheletes.  I think this is good for them and makes them better than just offseason wrestling.  Track makes them better atheletes, football makes them stronger and more mentally tough, and then wrestling continues this process.  We have kids lifting the same program all year, training all year, and to me this is an advantage for our wrestling program.  At the same time we have more and more kids doing off season work and going to RTC's, so if they are willing to make the sacrifice they can and will have success.  Its up to the kids, they can do three sports and still put in the extra time for wrestling.

I see the potential I see it here to.  I think that there is a lot more potential at those schools there I agree with that.  

certainly not.  Hope i didn't give the impression that anyone ever would do something that silly.

 

Would you take the Carroll job if offered?

Im all about getting a full time teaching job that is what's most important to me.  If I were full time at Busco I can honestly say I wouldn't.  I want to win sectionals and regionals too, but I like Busco, and I dont see why with hard work we can't be where those giants like Whitko and Garrett are now.

I didn't give you any maybes.  But you can take the maybes away from y2's post and those would all be reasons why homestead is a better program.  Homestead also fills all their weight classes.

So do a lot of schools Blufftons size,  they've done it before.

Yorktown gives hope that one out of 10 years you can do something special and that is if all the chips fall into the right places.  If one of their studs goes down to injury during the season or one flunks off the team they aren't at team state.

So then what about next year,  A lot of people have Yorktown being riht back were they were tis year.

So are you saying if a Dekalb, or Carroll, or Snider came open, a big school near Garrett you'd look into it?

Sorry thats how I interpreted your statements.

No one said Bluffton could never compete with Homestead?  Not sure where you got that.  Only said that Razo would probably coach at Homestead rather than Bluffton if he wanted to have team success.

You brought up the Angola and Busco thing.  I said in an earlier post:

Karl I am for classing the team portion, but in terms of were the thread was going the discussion was turning into one that was about how Bluffton could not compete with Homestead I just thought I wouldgive an example were a similar school had.

Which is why I brought the smaller schools up.  I do agree that classin would give smaller schools a better chance, Yorktown though does show that small schools could be right there for it all.

I completly agree but what if you were a teacher/ coach at Whitko, and castle offered you the head coaching job with no teaching.  Is the five hour job really something your gonna do just for coaching pay and a better chance at success?

Karl I am for classing the team portion, but in terms of were the thread was going the discussion was turning into one that was about how Bluffton could not compete with Homestead I just thought I wouldgive an example were a similar school had.

First of all by all accounts shouldn't Angola have a better program than us?  They are a 4A school we are 1A? By you guyss accounts we should be flattered that you even mentioned us i the same breathe with a school that size. Secondly since ive been at Busco we are 1-1 with Angola.  Angola was pretty good last year, so honestly I dont know.  Indivdually I think we have had more semi-staters than them over the same period, and I would say Hamilton and Furar had similar success so its a good argument for both sides.

So what about the Whitko, Homestead question?

I dont think he is arguing that on a whole as a team Bluffton is equal with Homestead, I think he is saying that on an individual basis Homestead and Bluffton have had about the same success.  Why don't we look at Whitko instead of Bluffton.  Similar sizes, similar demographics.  Whitko was able to beat Homestead at team Regionals.  So if they are not equal what speacial power did Whitko have to beat them?  How were they able to do it when a team like Bluffont couldn't with all of their disadvantages.

Why can't Bluffton have enough wrestlers for a middle school team?  There are plenty of small schools with full MS rosters? I agree the Homestead middle schools do have more possibilities than does Bluffton, not gonna argue that one, but if we look back at the past 15 year Bluffton has had more conference titles, state champions and Im pretty sure state placers than Homestead.  How could it be?  

Not a problem.  Just making sure im being interpreted correctly

That was my original post that started this whole thred.  I havent modified the contents exept to try to catch my bad spelling.  How does that post show that I feel that no one has ever jumped ship for success and money?

[font=Verdana]One of the arguments that I hear for class wrestling is that the good coaches leave small schools and go to bigger schools for more success.  I am not saying that this does not happen, but I am just wondering situations were it has occurred.  Again im just trying to get some discussion going, I am not saying it does not happen, I can think of Randy Kerby as an example going from Bluffton to Columbia City.  What I do feel is that it doesn't happen very often.

I think coaching changes occur more often than not do to teaching oppurtunities than for coaching success.  I may be mistaken but I just dont think that these moves happen that often.

I also found this interesting.  This is a link to the football coaching changes from 07-08.  I do not notice alot of the coaches going from small schools to big schools on this list.

http://ifca.zebras.net/ifca/candler/foot2008/coaching_changes.htm

One final thing that I think we could discuss under this topic is the idea of elite coaches, and where they came from.  Did they start at a small school?  Did they start at the bigger school?  what kind of success would they or did they at a small school?  Just trying to cause soome disscussion, so dont jump my case if im wrong on this, i just cant think off of the top of many head  coaches going to big schools after having success at small schools.[/font]

Hey I went to track practice come back and there is all of this about what people interpreted from my post.  How about interpreting this;  some coaches have left their small school for reasons of success, and to get more coaching pay.  Tell me how that is interpreted because I have said it the entire time.

First off I am a suppoter of the team portion being classed.  Secondly I am not trying to debunk class wrestling.  I started this post as a look in to why coaches left their schools, and if most people agree that it is for wrestling success which I do not believe to be the case in all of the situations brought foward, so how that is me saying that "no one has ever left a small school for a big school for success" is beyond me.  

Secondly I am a class team supporter but to say that small schools cannot have success right now is not true.  Am I suppossed to look at Whitko and Garrett who won our sectional and somehow feel that my small school could never do the same?  Garrett beat us heads up this year and Whitko would have to, but im not just going to say that small schools canont have success at the sectional level.  Secondly how can we say that small schools cannot ever win when the state runner ups were a small school?

Dan how can you interpret some one saying "i'm sure this has happened"  To mean "it has never happenened." 

Big Dan show me any point were I tried to imply that no coach has ever tried to improve their situation financially or to have more success.  I have never once said or implied this.  I have said or implied that I do not think that it is the only reason that coaches change schools.  I have even given examples of such situations were it possibly has occured.  I have stated in nearly each post that I do not know the reasons, and I have also stated that each of these coaches may very well have left for financial or wrestling success.  I do not know there stories.  Even in the opening post of this topic I stated that I was sure that coaches changing for success had happened before.  So a quote that says that I am trying to say that coaches never leave for financial success and wrestling success in completly false, because I have stated that it has happened, I just dont believe that it happens each time.  Dan that word "never"  is the key which makes it seem  as though I am completly oblivious and close minded to the possibility of it happening which again I am not.

As far as your assement that all coaches at small schools are not driven (see how I did that), I disagree totally and would say that they are possibly more driven by the fact that they try to get more with less.  At Busco we wrestle several four and five A schools.  We dont complain about it, we are driven and try to beat them.  And we work hard to do it.  So I think your statement that small school coaches are not driven, and that if we were we would look to go to bigger schools is completely short sighted.  Also what if a guy has been at a small school, and has taught there for years is he suppossed to up and leave his school and teaching job for a coaching only job at a big school?  Come on man you sound like an idiot when you make these statements.

I believe buscowrestling is trying to say that coaches don't move positions to improve financially and improve their chances for success.

At what point in the discussion did I ever say this?  Several times in this disscussion I have stated that I may be wrong, or even given examples when a coach has went to a bigger school from a smaller school.  I have never once said that it has never happened as the quote above says.  I do feel that these are possible reasons for changes, but not the only ones.  If by improve financially you mean get a teaching job then I completly agree.  If you are ensuing that a coach leaves the school they are at because the coaching pay only is different then I totally disagree.  I also believe that while the chance for success is important to these coaches ,it is also obvious that in most of these situations location has been a factor.  I am simply putting up my opinion as that an opinion,  yet at the same time others opionions are treated as facts.  Twice in the discussion your arguments have shown holes, once with Coach Harper looking for a teaching postion and us not knowing if there were teaching openings at Marian or St. Joe,  and once with Coach Struck saying he wouldn't have left Greencastle.  Again I am not saying it never happens,  I just feel that teaching jobs and location play bigger roles than the possibility of coaching success, but i may be wrong.

Hey your probably right,  I just know that I personally would put a lot of emphasis on getting back to the area where I was from.  Thats me, it may not have played a big role in his decision.  There are a lot of varibles that neither of us know in this situation or the others, but like I said I may be wrong.

Why?  I would say that St.  Joe, and Marian despite being down have the potential to be as good if not better than BC.  Plus they are private so each student should count as like 1.5 kids, so acctually they would have a lot more students (im being sarcastic about the last part).  I imagine the argument would be that he wouldn't because of the fact that Mishawaka, and Penn are in their sectional, or that the private schools dont pay as much, but still BC is a good 2 hours from Penn I know that I would have taken the oppurtunity to get back to home even if it meant taking a job at Marian, or St. Joe,  both orf which are jobs I would put at minimum on par with BC.

Thats cool I still think that just wanting to get back home could have been a possible reason that Harper went to Penn, but who knows.

Then why would you leave Northrop to go to Garrett?  By the way its a good drive from BC to Penn maybe he is close with his family.