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Class Wrestling - Participation


Westforkwhite

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Does Johnny JV who makes the varsity spot via injury have an equal chance of qualifying/placing as Joe Lee? Does a swimmer have an equal chance just because they entered the race?

If they are in the race or on the mat, they have a shot at winning.

 

Everyone has to win the same amount of matches to be a state qualifier/placer/champion. 

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If they are in the race or on the mat, they have a shot at winning.

 

Everyone has to win the same amount of matches to be a state qualifier/placer/champion.

but that wasn't your question/statement. You insinuated there should be an equal chance to make/place at state, and I disagree for the multitude of factors that make those wrestlers different (and of course their probability as male students at the school are near equal to their 3A counterparts)

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This is the normal culmination of the class wrestling argument.  The class proponents use the solution to dictate and justify the needs (should be the other way around)

 

I definitely believe that small schools are at a disadvantage. As you said Joe, if you try to get small school kids to specialize then there will be a revolt.  Well, if that is true, then unless the small school kid is blessed with freakish physical gifts, they are never going to be able to perform at the level that an athletic kid who goes to year round academy training is able to do.  As the overstated saying goes "It is what it is..."  Small schools are at a disadvantage unless they choose to take the specialization route

 

Does this mean that we should create a class so that these disadvantaged young people can win a "championship"?  In my opinion, no it does not

 

Does this mean that the disadvantaged young people who may never reach the technical capabilities of year-round wrestlers specializing at large schools should somehow "deserve" more exposure to college coaches?  In my opinion, no it does not

 

Before we can agree on the solution, we need to agree upon the needs not vice versa

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This is the normal culmination of the class wrestling argument.  The class proponents use the solution to dictate and justify the needs (should be the other way around)

 

I definitely believe that small schools are at a disadvantage. As you said Joe, if you try to get small school kids to specialize then there will be a revolt.  Well, if that is true, then unless the small school kid is blessed with freakish physical gifts, they are never going to be able to perform at the level that an athletic kid who goes to year round academy training is able to do.  As the overstated saying goes "It is what it is..."  Small schools are at a disadvantage unless they choose to take the specialization route

 

Does this mean that we should create a class so that these disadvantaged young people can win a "championship"?  In my opinion, no it does not

 

Does this mean that the disadvantaged young people who may never reach the technical capabilities of year-round wrestlers specializing at large schools should somehow "deserve" more exposure to college coaches?  In my opinion, no it does not

 

Before we can agree on the solution, we need to agree upon the needs not vice versa

 

It sounds like your argument can be summarized by:

 

"Things aren't fair sometimes.  Deal with it."

 

Is that accurate?

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This is the normal culmination of the class wrestling argument.  The class proponents use the solution to dictate and justify the needs (should be the other way around)

 

I definitely believe that small schools are at a disadvantage. As you said Joe, if you try to get small school kids to specialize then there will be a revolt.  Well, if that is true, then unless the small school kid is blessed with freakish physical gifts, they are never going to be able to perform at the level that an athletic kid who goes to year round academy training is able to do.  As the overstated saying goes "It is what it is..."  Small schools are at a disadvantage unless they choose to take the specialization route

 

Does this mean that we should create a class so that these disadvantaged young people can win a "championship"?  In my opinion, no it does not

 

Does this mean that the disadvantaged young people who may never reach the technical capabilities of year-round wrestlers specializing at large schools should somehow "deserve" more exposure to college coaches?  In my opinion, no it does not

 

Before we can agree on the solution, we need to agree upon the needs not vice versa

So you are fine with the current state of small school programs? You are fine that they are basically there to be the whipping boys of the big schools?

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It sounds like your argument can be summarized by:

 

"Things aren't fair sometimes.  Deal with it."

 

Is that accurate?

 

I'm saying that if my son attends a small school and is interested in wrestling then I need to realistically consider my options

 

1. I encourage him to enjoy the small school environment -- one that allows kids to play 3 different sports where a student at a large school may not get that chance. I support the wrestling team in any way possible, and probably try to talk his buddies into trying it with him. I don't expect him to get a look by college wrestling coaches, or really college coaches for any sport (unless he is a freak athlete!). Our school's academic opportunities may also not be the same as BigTown HS down the highway -- they have fancy chemistry labs, new computer equipment, robotics, a huge theatre, etc.  I still encourage my kid to take advantage of what opportunities he has and try to excel in his studies anyways.

 

2. I want him to be a college wrestler (let me restate that -- HE wants to be a college wrestler, shouldn't matter what I want right?).  So, in addition to our 5-man wrestling team, in the offseason I take him to RWA or RoadRunner or MaurerCoughlin or wherever.  I buy wrestling DVDs so he can learn from others in the comfort of our home. We go to RTCs when they are available. Probably encourage him to wrestle freestyle/greco or any opportunity he gets. We are super excited when he beats kids that we consider better than he is - regardless of what size school they are from. He hopefully increases in his wrestling ability as the years go on and he advances through sectional, regional, ......

 

There's your choices. If you want to call it "things arent' fair deal with it" then go for it.  The second option is the same advice I would give to a kid at a large school that wants to get better also.

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I'm saying that if my son attends a small school and is interested in wrestling then I need to realistically consider my options

 

1. I encourage him to enjoy the small school environment -- one that allows kids to play 3 different sports where a student at a large school may not get that chance. I support the wrestling team in any way possible, and probably try to talk his buddies into trying it with him. I don't expect him to get a look by college wrestling coaches, or really college coaches for any sport (unless he is a freak athlete!). Our school's academic opportunities may also not be the same as BigTown HS down the highway -- they have fancy chemistry labs, new computer equipment, robotics, a huge theatre, etc.  I still encourage my kid to take advantage of what opportunities he has and try to excel in his studies anyways.

 

2. I want him to be a college wrestler (let me restate that -- HE wants to be a college wrestler, shouldn't matter what I want right?).  So, in addition to our 5-man wrestling team, in the offseason I take him to RWA or RoadRunner or MaurerCoughlin or wherever.  I buy wrestling DVDs so he can learn from others in the comfort of our home. We go to RTCs when they are available. Probably encourage him to wrestle freestyle/greco or any opportunity he gets. We are super excited when he beats kids that we consider better than he is - regardless of what size school they are from. He hopefully increases in his wrestling ability as the years go on and he advances through sectional, regional, ......

 

There's your choices. If you want to call it "things arent' fair deal with it" then go for it.  The second option is the same advice I would give to a kid at a large school that wants to get better also.

There is nothing specific that I "want to call it."  I am just trying to fully understand your perspective. 

 

What would you tell your son if he wants to be a collegiate wrestler, but his buddies also really want him to play football?  Say he's a top 5 1A running back and without him, they're average...with him, they're competing for a state title...One of these football guys might be just the practice partner he needs to get him over the hump...

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I'm saying that if my son attends a small school and is interested in wrestling then I need to realistically consider my options

 

1. I encourage him to enjoy the small school environment -- one that allows kids to play 3 different sports where a student at a large school may not get that chance. I support the wrestling team in any way possible, and probably try to talk his buddies into trying it with him. I don't expect him to get a look by college wrestling coaches, or really college coaches for any sport (unless he is a freak athlete!). Our school's academic opportunities may also not be the same as BigTown HS down the highway -- they have fancy chemistry labs, new computer equipment, robotics, a huge theatre, etc.  I still encourage my kid to take advantage of what opportunities he has and try to excel in his studies anyways.

 

2. I want him to be a college wrestler (let me restate that -- HE wants to be a college wrestler, shouldn't matter what I want right?).  So, in addition to our 5-man wrestling team, in the offseason I take him to RWA or RoadRunner or MaurerCoughlin or wherever.  I buy wrestling DVDs so he can learn from others in the comfort of our home. We go to RTCs when they are available. Probably encourage him to wrestle freestyle/greco or any opportunity he gets. We are super excited when he beats kids that we consider better than he is - regardless of what size school they are from. He hopefully increases in his wrestling ability as the years go on and he advances through sectional, regional, ......

 

There's your choices. If you want to call it "things arent' fair deal with it" then go for it.  The second option is the same advice I would give to a kid at a large school that wants to get better also.

Best post on this topic right here..

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So you are fine with the current state of small school programs? You are fine that they are basically there to be the whipping boys of the big schools?

What constitutes a small school? Because this year I'd say the champs and runners up came from across the board. I think there was a great balance. Daleville with 281 students had more kids in the finals than Carmel with 4,993 (no disrespect to Carmel, of course).

 

Warren Central, enrollment 3,722 - one runner-up

Portage, enrollment 2,555 - 1 runner-up

Brownsburg, enrollment 2,468 - two runners-up, 1 champ

Perry Meridian, enrollment 2,298 - one runner-up

Chesterton, enrollment 2,097 - 1 champ, two runners up

Columbus East, enrollment 1,548 - 1 champ

Munster, enrollment 1,504 - 1 runner-up

Hobart, enrollment 1,285 - 1 champ

Roncalli, enrollment 1,188 - 1 champ

Cathedral, enrollment 1,185 - 1 champ

New Palestine, enrollment 1,137 - 1 champ

South Bend Washington, enrollment 885 - 1 runner-up

Delta, enrollment 874 - 1 champ

Yorktown, enrollment 804 - 2 champs, 1 runner-up

Jimtown, enrollment 637 - 1 runner-up

Lawrenceburg, enrollment 624 - 1 champ

N. Montgomery, enrollment 619 - 1 runner-up

Mater Dei, enrollment 529 - 1 runner-up

Monrovia, enrollment 518 - 1 champ

Greentown, enrollment 495 - 1 champ

Shenandoah, enrollment 434 - 1 runner-up

Daleville, enrollment 281 - 1 champ

Edited by grappleapple
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What constitutes a small school? Because this year I'd say the champs and runners up came from across the board. I think there was a great balance. Daleville with 281 students had more kids in the finals than Carmel with 4,993 (no disrespect to Carmel, of course).

 

Warren Central, enrollment 3,722 - one runner-up

Portage, enrollment 2,555 - 1 runner-up

Brownsburg, enrollment 2,468 - two runners-up, 1 champ

Perry Meridian, enrollment 2,298 - one runner-up

Chesterton, enrollment 2,097 - 1 champ, two runners up

Columbus East, enrollment 1,548 - 1 champ

Munster, enrollment 1,504 - 1 runner-up

Hobart, enrollment 1,285 - 1 champ

Roncalli, enrollment 1,188 - 1 champ

Cathedral, enrollment 1,185 - 1 champ

New Palestine, enrollment 1,137 - 1 champ

South Bend Washington, enrollment 885 - 1 runner-up

Delta, enrollment 874 - 1 champ

Yorktown, enrollment 804 - 2 champs, 1 runner-up

Jimtown, enrollment 637 - 1 runner-up

Lawrenceburg, enrollment 624 - 1 champ

N. Montgomery, enrollment 619 - 1 runner-up

Mater Dei, enrollment 529 - 1 runner-up

Monrovia, enrollment 518 - 1 champ

Greentown, enrollment 495 - 1 champ

Shenandoah, enrollment 434 - 1 runner-up

Daleville, enrollment 281 - 1 champ

Does anyone have the data for enrollments?  I would be interested to see how the numbers look if you simply based it off total population of students, instead of classes... 

So if you took the total populations, divide by three, and then see were the state qualifiers and placers came from...

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The top 100 schools with wrestling have over 1000 students.

The middle 100 schools have between 500-1000 students

The bottom 100 schools have less than 500 students

 

If you split the state into half 700 students would be the cut-off

 

Placers since 2011 by class

Year--1A--2A--3A
2017---6--29--77
2016---8--23--81
2015---5--25--82
2014---1--27--84
2013---9--25--78
2012---8--25--79
2011---9--30--73
 
Year--1A--2A
2017--22--90
2016--20--92
2015--14--98
2014--11--101
2013--21--91
2012--22--90
2011--28--84
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There is nothing specific that I "want to call it."  I am just trying to fully understand your perspective. 

 

What would you tell your son if he wants to be a collegiate wrestler, but his buddies also really want him to play football?  Say he's a top 5 1A running back and without him, they're average...with him, they're competing for a state title...One of these football guys might be just the practice partner he needs to get him over the hump...

 

My response to my son would probably be that life is about choices.  Sometimes there are no good choices.  Sometimes there are 2 different good choices and you have to pick one of them. My sporting days are long gone, so as a parent I would say to my son when you finish high school, the best measure of success is sometimes that you have no regrets.  If you are in a sport that you don't enjoy at all, then maybe find one that you do enjoy.

 

In the case you mention above, it's a choice of personal gain versus "team" gain.  That's a difficult choice between 2 good paths.  I'd say pick one (have a conversation with your buddies if you pick going after the wrestling one) and then don't look back.  Hindsight is 20/20 but people who are constantly thinking "what if" are a dime a dozen. If you choose football, then relish the chance you have and the experiences you will have with your friends.  If you choose going the wrestling path alone, then enjoy that and try to support your football buddies in other ways.

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Does anyone have the data for enrollments?  I would be interested to see how the numbers look if you simply based it off total population of students, instead of classes... 

So if you took the total populations, divide by three, and then see were the state qualifiers and placers came from...

So if there are 30,000 students put 10,000 in 1A, 10,000 in 2A, etc?

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Schools

1A-193 under 904 students

2A-73 905-1805 Students

3A-39 above 1806 students

 

Average Placers since 2011

1A-33.6 Per School 0.17

2A-38.0 Per School 0.52

3A-40.4 Per School 1.04

 

Average Qualifiers since 2008

1A-78.2 Per School 0.41

2A-74.2 Per School 1.02

3A-71.6 Per School 1.84

 

And for fun


If we take out Mater Dei from all calculations

Qualifiers at 1A drops to an average of 72.9(-5.3) or 0.38 per school

Placers at 1A drops to an average of 30(-3.6) or 0.16 per school

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My response to my son would probably be that life is about choices.  Sometimes there are no good choices.  Sometimes there are 2 different good choices and you have to pick one of them. My sporting days are long gone, so as a parent I would say to my son when you finish high school, the best measure of success is sometimes that you have no regrets.  If you are in a sport that you don't enjoy at all, then maybe find one that you do enjoy.

 

In the case you mention above, it's a choice of personal gain versus "team" gain.  That's a difficult choice between 2 good paths.  I'd say pick one (have a conversation with your buddies if you pick going after the wrestling one) and then don't look back.  Hindsight is 20/20 but people who are constantly thinking "what if" are a dime a dozen. If you choose football, then relish the chance you have and the experiences you will have with your friends.  If you choose going the wrestling path alone, then enjoy that and try to support your football buddies in other ways.

 

This sounds like excellent advice for a young man in a state without classed wrestling.

 

Are you also proposing this as an argument against class wrestling? 

 

If so, how does this argue against classed wrestling?

 

If not, what is your logic or data in opposition to class wrestling?

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This sounds like excellent advice for a young man in a state without classed wrestling.

 

Are you also proposing this as an argument against class wrestling? 

 

If so, how does this argue against classed wrestling?

 

If not, what is your logic or data in opposition to class wrestling?

 

My logic is that I would like to suggest measures that would help wrestling at every level. I would love to see the small school guys have more opportunities for success (if that's the path they choose) but I do not feel that a classed individual tournament is the best way.

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My logic is that I would like to suggest measures that would help wrestling at every level. I would love to see the small school guys have more opportunities for success (if that's the path they choose) but I do not feel that a classed individual tournament is the best way.

 

Are you comfortable with the possibility that some sports will be sacrificed in order to achieve wrestling goals? 

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Here's an old post I wrote last year on the same topic....  to help raise the level of wrestling across the board. Get more of the smaller school guys trained up and on an equal footing to advance further in the state series, and be more college-ready should they choose to pursue that option

 

 

Open up in-season wrestling so that athletes can practice with other schools and with academies.  Expand the state finals by 2 rounds by adding 4 mats and splitting the first and second rounds between weight classes.  College coaches could choose to attend the first day (where wrestlers may be knocked out of the tourney, but may be a great fit for some colleges) or only attend the final day where they would theoretically see the "cream of the crop"

 

Pros:  

  • Wrestlers from small schools could find area cooperative training centers where they would receive excellent instruction from skilled coaches (thus increasing the wrestling skill level state-wide)
  • Wrestlers from small schools with many forfeits would have the chance to work out with varied practice partners to alleviate any discrepencies where a school only has a 106, 132, 160 and 250 lb wrestlers
  • College exposure is given to the best wrestlers regardless of school size
  • The area training centers would provide a great transition into freestyle and greco wrestling post-season for those who would continue wrestling

Cons:

  • Would need to determine how to staff and coach at the area training facilities, and provide enough of them so that travel time isn't too big of a burden.  Could potentially rotate between a cluster of area schools
  • Would the IHSAA ever allow something such as this?  Do other states restrict wrestlers to only wrestle within their school during season, or are they allowed to supplement that with Contenders/RWA/CIA/Pride/Red Cobra/Maurer-Coughlin type training?
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Schools

1A-193 under 904 students

2A-73 905-1805 Students

3A-39 above 1806 students

 

Average Placers since 2011

1A-33.6 Per School 0.17

2A-38.0 Per School 0.52

3A-40.4 Per School 1.04

 

Average Qualifiers since 2008

1A-78.2 Per School 0.41

2A-74.2 Per School 1.02

3A-71.6 Per School 1.84

 

And for fun

 

If we take out Mater Dei from all calculations

Qualifiers at 1A drops to an average of 72.9(-5.3) or 0.38 per school

Placers at 1A drops to an average of 30(-3.6) or 0.16 per school

So this would be similar to what you would expect based on the data when we look at classes, school size has no effect when it comes to being a qualifier. In terms of placers bigger schools are doing better.

Given that it looks like we need to figure out how to get the top end kids at small schools to that next level. Is classing the best way to do that? I think that makes for a good debate, anyone else have any ideas?

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Here's an old post I wrote last year on the same topic....  to help raise the level of wrestling across the board. Get more of the smaller school guys trained up and on an equal footing to advance further in the state series, and be more college-ready should they choose to pursue that option

Thank you for a thoughtful and constructive solution...way better than "just work harder."

 

Some comments:

Currently kids can seek out academy instruction during the season, however they can only practice with a coach or their own teammates. With that you would run into training issues due to lack of communication between coaches and/or stubbornness between coaches.

 

In Ohio and Michigan they allow you to practice with other teams and you see it a lot during the state series. However, you mostly see teams finding another from a different class to practice with. It would be difficult for coaches to train with the others they are training to beat during the season.

 

Lastly, the IHSAA by-laws seem to insinuate they aren't a big fan of academy or private training during the season.

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