Georges St. Pierre, can he be defeated at 170 pounds?

[OBC]

Is it time for Rush to move up to 185, or are there any legitimate challenges left at 170? 

[Smooth34]

There is no one left at 170.  He will destroy Hardy just like everyone else.  However, he might as well stay at 170.  There aren't any challenges for him at 185 besides Anderson Silva.

[OBC]

No challenges at 185?  How about the Phenom Vitor Belfort, or a guy like Wanderlei Silva? 

[inhunter1983]

I don't see anyone touchin GSP at 170. After his loss to Serra, he has been a way different fighter and concentrates on his amazing wrestling and ground game. As for 185, of course there are fights for him at 185 but I don't think he will move up anytime soon.

[MattM]

Anyone has a punchers chance at winning in an MMA fight (i.e. Matt Serra when GSP got to confortable standing), but skill to skill GSP it about as complete as anyone has ever seen around that weight class.

[OBC]

I have no interest in seeing GSP take on Anderson.  The physical disparity is simply too great and there is no reason to see a great champion like Georges torched by the Spider.  I would like, however, to see St Pierre try the waters at 185 against some of the non top ranked guys and see where he stands.  Perhaps guys like Sakara, Leban, etc. 

[JakeandBreighton]

I'm taking "The Outlaw"

[Dingo Brigade]

LOL...there's a new ballcoach in town.

 

GSP will mop up the dentally challenged Brit

[OBC]

Weigh ins are up at ufc.tv.  Hardy looks relatively big next to GSP.  I don't know fellas, Hardy may be the King of the UFc welterweight division, come this time tomorrow night. 

 

 

[Smooth34]

I like Fitch, but he's still not beating GSP.

 

The only match left at 170 for GSP is Koscheck.  GSP needs to fight someone who at least has a legitimate wrestling background and can stop GSP's takedowns.  I think Koscheck is the only guy in that division who even has a shot at stopping them. 

 

After Koscheck beats Daley, look for that to be his next title match. 

[Dingo Brigade]

Ugly win, but GSP dominated. Not sure I want to see GSP dominate Koscheck again. He has pretty much cleaned the division out now.

[Smooth34]

Ugly win, but GSP dominated. Not sure I want to see GSP dominate Koscheck again. He has pretty much cleaned the division out now.

 

I totally agree.  I don't necessarily want to see that fight again, but the only guy for GSP at 185 is Silva, and I don't see them putting together that fight for a while.  He's not moving up to fight lower tier guys.  So who does that leave at 170?  He's destroyed every contender at 170.

[OBC]

I totally agree.  I don't necessarily want to see that fight again, but the only guy for GSP at 185 is Silva, and I don't see them putting together that fight for a while.  He's not moving up to fight lower tier guys.  So who does that leave at 170?  He's destroyed every contender at 170.

 

If GSP moves up, he'll be the lower tier guy.  He has never defeated a 185 pounder but he has been knocked unconscious by a blown up 155 pounder and put in the hospital by another 155 pounder.  Don't tell me that GSP is higher up the 185 pecking order that Wanderlei, Palhares, Vitor, Maia or Marquart.  He has a long list of more than capable guys waiting for him if he decides to move up.  In fact, fighting them can be his excuse to not get in the cage with Anderson.  GSP wants absolutely nothing to do with the spider and that's quite clear. 

[Smooth34]

If GSP moves up, he'll be the lower tier guy.  He has never defeated a 185 pounder but he has been knocked unconscious by a blown up 155 pounder and put in the hospital by another 155 pounder.  Don't tell me that GSP is higher up the 185 pecking order that Wanderlei, Palhares, Vitor, Maia or Marquart.  He has a long list of more than capable guys waiting for him if he decides to move up.  In fact, fighting them can be his excuse to not get in the cage with Anderson.  GSP wants absolutely nothing to do with the spider and that's quite clear. 

 

Are there other guys besides GSP who could beat BJ Penn at 170?  Probably...but the UFC didn't move BJ Penn up to fight those guys, the moved him to challenge GSP for the welterweight title. 

 

Why do you think it would be different for GSP?  If he moves up, it would be for a shot at Silva's belt.  185 is pretty weak and I don't see many guys who can hang with GSP. 

[OBC]

Are there other guys besides GSP who could beat BJ Penn at 170?  Probably...but the UFC didn't move BJ Penn up to fight those guys, the moved him to challenge GSP for the welterweight title.  

 

Why do you think it would be different for GSP?  If he moves up, it would be for a shot at Silva's belt.  185 is pretty weak and I don't see many guys who can hang with GSP.  

 

BJ Penn was the champion at 170 pounds before GSPs title reign.  Penn had choked out Matt Hughes who in turn tapped out GSP via arm bar.   Then Penn and GSP fought in what many people believed was a BJ Penn 3 round decision victory.  If nothing else, GSP obsorbed most of the punishment and looked like a beaten fighter at the conclusion of the match.  It was only natural to make the title fight between Penn and GSP.  

 

GSP has donenone of this at 185 and he's expressed that he wants nothing to do with Anderson Silva.  Dana White has told us that Silva is too big for GSP and that the fight wont happen.  The precedent has been set by Anderson of moving up and fighting hand picked opponents simply for the sake of making entertaining fights.  He demolished both Forrest Griffin and James Irvin between title defenses at 185.  This would be the same thing for GSP.  You give him fights at 185 that are competitive.  He's never proven a thing at 185, so there really is no reason to lead him to slaughter via a match against Anderson who is destroying people in the 205 pound division.

 

185 is not weak.  Anderson makes it look that way, but it is far from weak.  Here's a list of guys that IMO would give GSP all he could handle and each one of them would be favored IMO.

 

Vitor Belfort - just annihilated Rich Franklin.  His striking is lethal and he's very athletic.

 

Palhares - a power house and brilliant on the ground with leg locks and slick submissions.  His own take down prowess is solid and he has a mean streak in him unlike anyone else in the UFC.

 

Wanderlei Silva - The ax murdered coming down from 205 would be a night mare for GSP.  Everything that GSP is afraid of, (getting hit primarily) is what Wanderlei does best.

 

Damian Maia - arguably the best ground fighter on the planet.  GSP would be forced to box and avoid the ground at all cost.  He can do it, but one mistake...

 

Cael Sonnen - A greco specialist who can focus on the clinch and work for take downs from there, (and avoid being at range for GSPs take down attempt) .  A tough, grind you out type of guy, might be taylor made to frustrate and out point GSP.

 

Nate Marquart - a team mate of GSP, this may be a fight that could never be made.  None the less he's part of the reason why 185 is far from weak.  A complete fighter who's resume speaks for itself.

 

Give me your honest take on those fighters and those fights.  Is there anything in the 170 pound division that is better than any single fight against any of those guys?  

 

[TripleB]

Well obviously you have an issue with GSP.

 

 

It's hard to give an honest anaylsis on dream fights.

 

So in my opinion...

 

He'd wax Wanderlai. It would be Tito vs Wanderlai part deux. Three rounds of lay and pray.

 

Palahres and Sonen are B level MMA'ers at best, once again not even fights. Koscheck is a lot better at Takedowns than Sonen and we all seen what GSP did to him.

 

Marquardt....hard to say, but GSP is just so good in all positions that I would have a hard time picking him over Rush.

 

Once Jake Shields signs it will keep GSP busy for another year. Rumor right now is winner of Johnson and Kos will coach TUF vs. GSP. I would say put Shields in the TUF spot if he's signed in time. and do a blow off fight with KOS/Johnson vs GSP. Kos vs GSP II could be interesting, I think Kos wasn't ready for the Takedowns last time.

 

 

[OBC]

Well obviously you have an issue with GSP.

 

 

It's hard to give an honest anaylsis on dream fights.

 

So in my opinion...

 

He'd wax Wanderlai. It would be Tito vs Wanderlai part deux. Three rounds of lay and pray.

 

Palahres and Sonen are B level MMA'ers at best, once again not even fights. Koscheck is a lot better at Takedowns than Sonen and we all seen what GSP did to him.

 

Marquardt....hard to say, but GSP is just so good in all positions that I would have a hard time picking him over Rush.

 

Once Jake Shields signs it will keep GSP busy for another year. Rumor right now is winner of Johnson and Kos will coach TUF vs. GSP. I would say put Shields in the TUF spot if he's signed in time. and do a blow off fight with KOS/Johnson vs GSP. Kos vs GSP II could be interesting, I think Kos wasn't ready for the Takedowns last time.

 

 

 

 

What issue do I have with GSP?  I have an issue with MMA, I like it!  I brought up GSP because he just fought and he has cleared out the division for all intents and purposes.  I thought it would be a natural topic to discuss.  I have nothing against GSP.  I'm wondering what the consensus is on him moving up.  I listed 5 fights that would be very competitive and very difficult for GSP to win.  In other words, they would each make for compelling match ups.   

 

Koscheck isn't fighting johnson, they already fought and Koscheck choked him out.  Shields isn't n the UFC and in fact is in a championship fight coming up against Dan Henderson in StrikeForce.  So what does that leave us with?  That is what the basis of this topic is. 

[cjl123]

What about Chris Lytle that would sell some tickets

[Smooth34]

BJ Penn was the champion at 170 pounds before GSPs title reign.  Penn had choked out Matt Hughes who in turn tapped out GSP via arm bar.   Then Penn and GSP fought in what many people believed was a BJ Penn 3 round decision victory.  If nothing else, GSP obsorbed most of the punishment and looked like a beaten fighter at the conclusion of the match.  It was only natural to make the title fight between Penn and GSP.  

 

GSP has donenone of this at 185 and he's expressed that he wants nothing to do with Anderson Silva.  Dana White has told us that Silva is too big for GSP and that the fight wont happen.  The precedent has been set by Anderson of moving up and fighting hand picked opponents simply for the sake of making entertaining fights.  He demolished both Forrest Griffin and James Irvin between title defenses at 185.  This would be the same thing for GSP.  You give him fights at 185 that are competitive.  He's never proven a thing at 185, so there really is no reason to lead him to slaughter via a match against Anderson who is destroying people in the 205 pound division.

 

185 is not weak.  Anderson makes it look that way, but it is far from weak.  Here's a list of guys that IMO would give GSP all he could handle and each one of them would be favored IMO.

 

Vitor Belfort - just annihilated Rich Franklin.  His striking is lethal and he's very athletic.

 

Palhares - a power house and brilliant on the ground with leg locks and slick submissions.  His own take down prowess is solid and he has a mean streak in him unlike anyone else in the UFC.

 

Wanderlei Silva - The ax murdered coming down from 205 would be a night mare for GSP.  Everything that GSP is afraid of, (getting hit primarily) is what Wanderlei does best.

 

Damian Maia - arguably the best ground fighter on the planet.  GSP would be forced to box and avoid the ground at all cost.  He can do it, but one mistake...

 

Cael Sonnen - A greco specialist who can focus on the clinch and work for take downs from there, (and avoid being at range for GSPs take down attempt) .  A tough, grind you out type of guy, might be taylor made to frustrate and out point GSP.

 

Nate Marquart - a team mate of GSP, this may be a fight that could never be made.  None the less he's part of the reason why 185 is far from weak.  A complete fighter who's resume speaks for itself.

 

Give me your honest take on those fighters and those fights.  Is there anything in the 170 pound division that is better than any single fight against any of those guys?  

 

 

Belfort beat an aging Rich Franklin...what are his other notable wins in the last several years.  I don't have any evidence to suggest that he's on GSP's level.  Maybe 5 years ago.

 

Wanderlei Silva is completely over the hill.  Who has he beaten?  An overrated Bisping? Keith Jardine?  Wake me up when he beats someone good.

 

Palhares...again who has he fought and beaten?  He went the distance with Hendo, but also went the distance with Jeremy Horn.  That guy is going to beat GSP? Give me a break.

 

Maia has great BJJ but got knocked out against Marquardt in 8 seconds.  GSP could easily win a standup battle with him

 

Sonnen would be an interesting fight  He has three very nice wins in his last three fights.  However, overall I think Sonnen and Marquardt are just bigger than GSP at this point, but not as talented.  With enough time, GSP could build the physique to hang with these guys in terms of strength and size. 

 

Silva is the only interesting fight for GSP and I don't think it's out of the question.  During the prelims on Saturday night, Rogan asked GSP about 185 and he smirked.  He's definitely been thinking about it. 

 

If the UFC puts UFC on TUF as a coach, it will be to give him time to bulk up to 185. 

[Smooth34]

Belfort beat an aging Rich Franklin...what are his other notable wins in the last several years.  I don't have any evidence to suggest that he's on GSP's level.  Maybe 5 years ago.

 

Wanderlei Silva is completely over the hill.  Who has he beaten?  An overrated Bisping? Keith Jardine?  Wake me up when he beats someone good.

 

Palhares...again who has he fought and beaten?  He went the distance with Hendo, but also went the distance with Jeremy Horn.  That guy is going to beat GSP? Give me a break.

 

Maia has great BJJ but got knocked out against Marquardt in 8 seconds.  GSP could easily win a standup battle with him

 

Sonnen would be an interesting fight  He has three very nice wins in his last three fights.   However, overall I think Sonnen and Marquardt are just bigger than GSP at this point, but not as talented.  With enough time, GSP could build the physique to hang with these guys in terms of strength and size. 

 

Silva is the only interesting fight for GSP and I don't think it's out of the question.  During the prelims on Saturday night, Rogan asked GSP about 185 and he smirked.  He's definitely been thinking about it. 

 

If the UFC puts GSP on TUF as a coach, it will be to give him time to bulk up to 185. 

[TripleB]

Shields fight with Hendo is his last on his strikeforce contract. Dana has said he wants him, Shields has said he's ready to listen to outside offers. It's all but a done deal. Dana has even called out Strikeforce for possibly lowering Shields stock by having his last match with Hendo.

 

I meant Daley, not Johnson. My bad.

 

Why I think you have issues with GSP, or you're just trolling:

 

"there is no reason to see a great champion like Georges torched by the Spider"

 

"I don't know fellas, Hardy may be the King of the UFc welterweight division, come this time tomorrow night. "  Nobody with an ounce of knowledge had Hardy beating GSP, fight was a joke, should have never went down. If ATT boys would get their heads out of their butts one of them would have gotten that fight.

 

"If GSP moves up, he'll be the lower tier guy"

 

"GSP wants absolutely nothing to do with the spider and that's quite clear. "

 

"there really is no reason to lead him to slaughter via a match against Anderson "

 

"Here's a list of guys that IMO would give GSP all he could handle and each one of them would be favored IMO"  Sonen favored over GSP, really? Palahres, why? Because he can't let go of a heel hook?

 

 

 

 

[blah blah blah]

the answer is no.plain and simple.he's just too explosive, to strong, to long, to fast.....he's too good for anyone in the 170lb class

[OBC]

Shields fight with Hendo is his last on his strikeforce contract. Dana has said he wants him, Shields has said he's ready to listen to outside offers. It's all but a done deal. Dana has even called out Strikeforce for possibly lowering Shields stock by having his last match with Hendo.

 

I meant Daley, not Johnson. My bad.

 

Why I think you have issues with GSP, or you're just trolling:

 

"there is no reason to see a great champion like Georges torched by the Spider"

 

"I don't know fellas, Hardy may be the King of the UFc welterweight division, come this time tomorrow night. "  Nobody with an ounce of knowledge had Hardy beating GSP, fight was a joke, should have never went down. If ATT boys would get their heads out of their butts one of them would have gotten that fight.

 

"If GSP moves up, he'll be the lower tier guy"

 

"GSP wants absolutely nothing to do with the spider and that's quite clear. "

 

"there really is no reason to lead him to slaughter via a match against Anderson "

 

"Here's a list of guys that IMO would give GSP all he could handle and each one of them would be favored IMO"  Sonen favored over GSP, really? Palahres, why? Because he can't let go of a heel hook?

 

 

 

 

 

My favorite fighter on the planet is Randy Couture.  I could make the exact statement for him just substitute big huge heavyweights that he'd get torched by and you'd think I have something against him.  I deal in reality.  GSP is a fantastic 170 pounder.  Probobly the best of all time.  But we're talking about 185 and at 185, he is merely a very good fighter.  The guys I selected for this discussion against him are all very very good 185 ers. 

 

Wanderlei may be past his prime, but he still brings it and we saw that Matt Serra is capable of making GSP tap to strikes.  Serra wasn't over the hill himself when he did that  to GSP?  That was a long time ago?  Well that's why I'm introducing Wanderlei into the discussion.  I'm not trying to upset you, I'm just throwing the idea out there and seeing what everyone thinks about it.

 

Palhares is extremely dangerous.  If Saturday night is the first time you've ever seen him compete and all you know of him is the heel hook, look him up and watch some video on him.  The guy is very dangerous and is down right nasty.  There's no reason what so ever to believe that GSP would beat him.  So Palhares lost to Hendo and went to a decision with Horn.  GSP lost to Serra and went to a decision with lets see: Hardy, Alves, Fitch, Koscheck, Penn, Miller, Parysian...

 

Belfort stopped Rich Franklin and Matt Lindland in his last 2 outings.  They were brutal knockouts.  He's also coming down from 205.  He has a lot of size on GSP and he is one of the best strikers in MMA. 

 

Marquart and Sonnen, another couple of very interesting match ups.  Both guys are much bigger than St. Pierre and have good wrestling back grounds, Something Hardy didn't have.  They force GSP to change it up and perhaps he can, perhaps he wins, but I'd like to see it.  I'd prefer that over the mismatches that GSP has left at 170, (excluding Koscheck).   

 

But the point isn't that they would all beat GSP, the point is that since GSP is the smaller man and these are accomplished guys in the next weight class up, it stands to reason that they would pose significant danger to GSP.  But here they are being dismissed like if GSP would simply run through them with a 5-0 record and it would all be a waste of time.  The reasons given remind me of what was said of Matt Serra, only these guys aren't over weight 155 pounders, these guys are big 185 pounders coming down from significantly higher. 

 

As for Anderson Silva, I mean no disrespect to GSP, but the reality is that the spider would take GSPs manhood and likely his life.      I have no interest in seeing that fight and that's not trolling, that's being honest and having compassion for a great champion. 

[Dingo Brigade]

Size matters, for sure, but GSP is a little different creature than most. Rashad Evans and many other, much larger, very skilled wrestlers have talked about how Georges takes them down fairly easily. His top control is among the best in the game, and most of his arsenal is centered around skill and quickness. Yes, he's strong for 170, but his game is not muscling people around, per se. I think he'd have a much tougher time at 185 if he was completely reliant on being huge and much stronger than his 170 lb. opponents. Instead, I can see him taking down all the contenders you mentioned, Sonnen included, and controlling them in a deliberate sort of way. Obviously, if he gets caught by a big 185, he can lose quickly and easily, but I would favor him against all the contenders at 185, not including the Spider.

GSP's bad loss to Serra is not nearly as bad as Silva's awful losses to Takase and Chonan.

[TripleB]

Anderson has also showed holes in his game. Henderson had a take down and controlled the first rd. Lutter took Silva down with ease, nasty elbows saved the Spider.

 

Who's to say GSP can't score the TD's and control the match?