Reasons for a class system for team state

[BlueBolt]

Joe,

 

Personally I have nothing but respect for you and Garrett Wrestling.  Living in the Deepest Darkest Southwestern Indiana we are not exposed to those "Up North" all that much.   We don't have the opportunity to wrestle Garrett and the other fine programs North of Indy.  

 

The true concern I have about the talk of Class Wrestling is the concept of saying "we need a special circumstance to win".  It's much the same argument as the "Protected Class" issue in society in general.   It would seem the message is "we stand no chance - so make a special rule just for us".   All that will do is create even more controversy - as it does in society, and honestly does dilute the efforts of ALL the programs by throwing the questions of "WHAT IF" even more into the limelight.

 

We hear it every football season - People stating they think the Class 2A champion could beat the 5A Champion.  And honestly they may very well be able to.   But we will never know because of the current system.  

 

The only part of this debate I look at favorably is the concept of Private versus Public schools.   Simply put if a student is placed into a private school t is do so as a willful choice of that students parents for the reasons they have chosen.  The have the means and the desire to take them out of the public school system for their own reasons.   The unfortunant fact of life is often those choices are not based in the qualty of education, but the quality of the athletic programs.   We can all SAY it doesn't happen, but it most certainly does and denying it is rediculous.   Is it "recruiting"?  That argument comes down to the willful pursuit by the coaches and administrators of the school in question and I will not get into that mudslinging contest.   But the facts of life indicate to all of us that there will always be "Have's" and "Have Nots".   If they chose to move out of the public school setting and into a private school - where frankly there ARE more opportunities and backing, then they should be expected to produced at a higher level based solely on the concept that they CAN be selective as to who they allow into the fold.  

 

The fact that you have produced the caliber of athletes you have on the mat given your circumstances speaks tremendously about the people involved in your program and the dedication you have personally and from those in your "family".  The fact these kids produce at the high level they do in not only wrestling but also in the 2 or 3 other sports is actually a HUGE advantage to the individual when you think about it.   The bottom line is Wrestling is only one of the building blocks to making a successful and productive member of society.   The more kids work at EACH task they are exposed to the more likely they are to handle the adversity of life more effectively later on.   The exposure to multiple sports and time take away from others may be a hinderence in some views, but it actually a great thing for the kids.

 

I have nothing but respect for you and the Garrett program...But as with everything in this life the Good comes with the Bad and vice versa.

 

[Y2CJ41]

Joe,

 

Personally I have nothing but respect for you and Garrett Wrestling.  Living in the Deepest Darkest Southwestern Indiana we are not exposed to those "Up North" all that much.   We don't have the opportunity to wrestle Garrett and the other fine programs North of Indy.   

Thank you for the compliments.

 

The true concern I have about the talk of Class Wrestling is the concept of saying "we need a special circumstance to win".  It's much the same argument as the "Protected Class" issue in society in general.   It would seem the message is "we stand no chance - so make a special rule just for us".   All that will do is create even more controversy - as it does in society, and honestly does dilute the efforts of ALL the programs by throwing the questions of "WHAT IF" even more into the limelight.

Class wrestling and classed other sports has been around since the 1960s and 1970s, has it lead to a decline in our society?  Do you think a decline in our society is directly related to classed sports?

 

We hear it every football season - People stating they think the Class 2A champion could beat the 5A Champion.  And honestly they may very well be able to.   But we will never know because of the current system. 

Every wrestling season we hear about 2010 state champs vs. 2008 state champs and comparisons of this year's Mishawaka team against other state championship teams.  Is this discussion really that horrible?  I love discussing with my colleagues Garrett 2010 vs. Garrett 2004 or any other year.  It hasn't lead to any major world wars or anything other than discussion.

 

 

[bigdanteague]

the follow up turned them into sarcastic remarks and/or redundant questions.  far from legitimate.

 

baseball is not far more popular than winter sports.  young people are not playing or watching the game like they once did.  they are going to skateboarding and snowboarding. x games type winter sports are growing with the youth while baseball is dieing with the youth of this country. older people  like me (32) still love the game.  Yes, the Sox and Yankees are still big time, but the majority of baseball is in decline.

 

I have answered....

 

Thank you.  I now believe you are completely nuts and will regard all future posts with that in mind.

[AJ]

Thank you.  I now believe you are completely nuts and will regard all future posts with that in mind.

 

whatever floats your boat......

 

i did do a little research about th sport declining in our youth and I found a CNN study:

 

Curiously, the one sport that has seen a decline is Little League Baseball, America's pastime. There has been a 1 percent decrease in enrollment every year since its peak in 1996. The organization attributed the decline to the myriad other options available to kids

 

 

[BlueBolt]

Thank you for the compliments.

Class wrestling and classed other sports has been around since the 1960s and 1970s, has it lead to a decline in our society?  Do you think a decline in our society is directly related to classed sports?

Every wrestling season we hear about 2010 state champs vs. 2008 state champs and comparisons of this year's Mishawaka team against other state championship teams.  Is this discussion really that horrible?  I love discussing with my colleagues Garrett 2010 vs. Garrett 2004 or any other year.  It hasn't lead to any major world wars or anything other than discussion.

 

 

 

The point is do we REALLY need another social crutch for our kids to rely on?  We already have kids playing sports where no score is kept...Honestly the last time I checked Life DOES keep score in many ways.   If you think it would better benefit the youth of today to be given a free pass based on their situation then I have to wonder if your really looking at Wrestling as emulating life, or if its more about just winning.  

 

You see Wrestling, AND Life, owes none of us ANYTHING Joe.  It's all up to us to make the best out of what we are given.   My suggestion is if this is such an issue for you then you can always excercise your personal options of making the best of the situation and continuing to produce the fine Wrestlers you have at Garrett, or move onto a place that has a more suitable situation for your taste.   The parents of your wrestlers also have that option also - even if it doesn't seem possible economically or for whatever reason.  We ALWAYS have options in this life, even if we don't like the choices.

 

My point about society and sports if valid.  We have all seen how athletics has shaped our young people into productive members of society.   If that is not obvious to you then you may be missing the point all together.   Sending the kids even more messages that they are not expected to perform to their very best ability just because they live here or there, or don't have this or that is doing nothing but giving them a free pass to make excuses.   Excuses are what give us defeats, and even worse makes them acceptable!

 

You have the oppotunity to give these kids a HUGE leg up by giving them a chance to compete.  You have done one hell of a job!  

 

[bigdanteague]

whatever floats your boat......

 

i did do a little research about th sport declining in our youth and I found a CNN study:

 

Curiously, the one sport that has seen a decline is Little League Baseball, America's pastime. There has been a 1 percent decrease in enrollment every year since its peak in 1996. The organization attributed the decline to the myriad other options available to kids

 

 

 

Awesome...so in the year 4540 A.D. skeleton and ice dancing will reign supreme.  But until then I will hold that baseball is FAR more popular than snowboarding.

[AJ]

Awesome...so in the year 4540 A.D. skeleton and ice dancing will reign supreme.  But until then I will hold that baseball is FAR more popular than snowboarding.

 

such a glorious day that will be.....

 

hopefully my beloved Cubbies will have won a World Series before the sport just dies off.......

[JimtownFather]

whatever floats your boat......

 

i did do a little research about th sport declining in our youth and I found a CNN study:

 

Curiously, the one sport that has seen a decline is Little League Baseball, America's pastime. There has been a 1 percent decrease in enrollment every year since its peak in 1996. The organization attributed the decline to the myriad other options available to kids

 

 

 

Yes.  A decline in:  "Little League" Baseball.  Not "Youth" Baseball.

 

The other options also include:  Babe Ruth Baseball, Cal Ripken Baseball, and the "Travelling" Baseball teams. 

 

There are still over 2.2 million participants.  Not too shabby.

 

[KarlHungus]

The point is do we REALLY need another social crutch for our kids to rely on?  We already have kids playing sports where no score is kept...Honestly the last time I checked Life DOES keep score in many ways.  If you think it would better benefit the youth of today to be given a free pass based on their situation then I have to wonder if your really looking at Wrestling as emulating life, or if its more about just winning. 

 

My point about society and sports if valid.  We have all seen how athletics has shaped our young people into productive members of society.  If that is not obvious to you then you may be missing the point all together.  Sending the kids even more messages that they are not expected to perform to their very best ability just because they live here or there, or don't have this or that is doing nothing but giving them a free pass to make excuses.  Excuses are what give us defeats, and even worse makes them acceptable!

 

 

I am pretty sure score would be kept in a small school division. 

 

How is competing against schools your own size like their peers in other sports and wrestlers in other states equate to a free pass?

 

There will still be winners and losers and the same life lessons will still be taught and learned.

 

[KarlHungus]

 

You see Wrestling, AND Life, owes none of us ANYTHING Joe.  It's all up to us to make the best out of what we are given.  My suggestion is if this is such an issue for you then you can always excercise your personal options of making the best of the situation and continuing to produce the fine Wrestlers you have at Garrett, or move onto a place that has a more suitable situation for your taste.  The parents of your wrestlers also have that option also - even if it doesn't seem possible economically or for whatever reason.  We ALWAYS have options in this life, even if we don't like the choices.

 

 

That is what most small school coaches are doing.  Making the best of the situation.  That doesn't mean one shouldn't work for a better situation.  It is not a matter of taste, it is what is best for kids.  Colonial Americans could have just paid their taxes to the British, Rosa Parks could have just sat in the back of the bus. 

[duck_and_run]

I think everyone on this board wants to better the states wrestling Karl.  I just think we do not agree on how we should do it.  Classing the sport of wrestling does not help struggling programs.  If we want to better the sport there are several other options to look into before we change what many believe to be the best tournement in the state.

[BlueBolt]

That is what most small school coaches are doing.  Making the best of the situation.  That doesn't mean one shouldn't work for a better situation.  It is not a matter of taste, it is what is best for kids.  Colonial Americans could have just paid their taxes to the British, Rosa Parks could have just sat in the back of the bus. 

 

And how about the view from the other side of the table?  For many years in this state the pretty much Universal of Excellence was Mater Dei.  If you were to put them into a group of schools the same size then we would have yet another set of issues.  They consistently have destroyed much larger schools programs, so how can one Crown a True Champion in a sport that rewards hard work with a Trophy based on beating a team that neither the winner or the loser of the class would stand a chance against the smaller class or classes?

 

I am not saying change is bad...I am saying that Wrestling is NOT the Civil Rights Movement.   

[fearless fly]

How bout the bigger schools that struggle with wrestling and consistently get beat by smaller schools? Should we have 2 divisions in the large class so we can hand them a trophy also?

 

 

ff

[Y2CJ41]

And how about the view from the other side of the table?  For many years in this state the pretty much Universal of Excellence was Mater Dei.  If you were to put them into a group of schools the same size then we would have yet another set of issues.  They consistently have destroyed much larger schools programs, so how can one Crown a True Champion in a sport that rewards hard work with a Trophy based on beating a team that neither the winner or the loser of the class would stand a chance against the smaller class or classes?

 

I am not saying change is bad...I am saying that Wrestling is NOT the Civil Rights Movement.   

They seem to do just fine in football not crowning a "true" champion.  Maybe if we go to classes Mater Dei would go to the Traicoff to prove they are the best or North Montgomery.

[pin2win1]

They seem to do just fine in football not crowning a "true" champion

 

I was always told that Indiana initially classed football more for the reason of allowing every school into the state tournament, not because they wanted to "level" the playing field.

[Y2CJ41]

It could very well have been the reason.  The football history of the state tournament is quite interesting actually.  They did not have a sanctioned state title until 1973.  In 1985 they went to the current five class format.  They tried a rating system and a cluster system which from what people have said it was literally a cluster XXXX. 

 

There are many football people that feel there is a need to trim down the state tournament, but I think the IHSAA is very proud of their unique all-in format.  I do not believe many states have an all-in format in all their sports and especially in football.

[hammer]

It could very well have been the reason.  The football history of the state tournament is quite interesting actually.  They did not have a sanctioned state title until 1973.  In 1985 they went to the current five class format.  They tried a rating system and a cluster system which from what people have said it was literally a cluster XXXX. 

 

There are many football people that feel there is a need to trim down the state tournament, but I think the IHSAA is very proud of their unique all-in format.  I do not believe many states have an all-in format in all their sports and especially in football.

 

I know that you are right on this in OH for football.  They have a qualifying system to determine who makes the playoffs.

[duck_and_run]

You guys claim class wrestling will increase attendance, increase participation, and get more recognition to our wrestlers for colleges.  From what I have seen in Indiana in the past few years we have taken steps to do all these things and not benifited from it.  We have restructured sectionals, added more regional qualifiers, and added more semi state qualifiers.  In total we have added an extra 768 wrestler to the regional level and another 224 wrestlers to the semi state level. 

 

There have been a downward slope in attendance, no increase to participation, and no increase in Indiana college wrestlers. 

[SamDad]

Hey idiot, there were ZERO wrestlers added to regional.  I am curious of how your math figured 768 wrestlers were added to regional when there are the same number of regionals with the same number of wrestlers in each regional. 

[duck_and_run]

Your right.  My math was mad dont be a dick.  We did restructure the sectionals to make it easier to get out.  Then we added 224 to semi state.  I think everyone can agree we have made it much easier to make it further in the tournment and seen no benifits from it.  

[SamDad]

Again you are an idiot, it is not easier to get out.  In the previous format there were 4-6 teams in each sectional with 64 sectionals with the top 2 advancing.  Now they have 8 to 12 teams with 32 sectionals and the top 4 getting out.

 

I attended the New Castle ss last year and this year and noticed more fans, not sure about the other ss's.

[duck_and_run]

Fort Wayne was way down.  I guess the win one and your in at regional hasn't made it easier.  You had to win your first match and go at least 1-1 in the old system.  Also at the sectional level we are not leaving out a lot of guys that would have been 3rd or 4th in thier old sectionals.  I think it is a much easier road then it use to be and I would think most intellegent people would agree with me.  That being said there was less attendance, no more participation, and no more college wrestlers coming from Indiana. 

 

Another area to look at if success will bring more wrestlers and greater attendance.  Why do we have so many pure crap sectionals?  Some of these bad sectionals are up for grabs and no team has risen to the top even though they have a shot to win it every year.  One sectional took a few forfeits into regionals.  How come they don't fill rosters when success is so easy to come by.  It just proves when you make things to easy you make them worthless. 

[SamDad]

Now I know why you have so many boo's, you are a complete and utter moron.

Sectionals are not easier, most of the time winning one match would qualify you for regional and sometimes you just had to weigh in in the old system.  Now you have to win at least two matches.

Regional is only "easier" because they added the fourth qualifier.  In the old system you had to go 2-1 on the day, now you can go 1-2.  Not 1-1 like you are trying to claim.

I would like to see the numbers at the ss, since your math is not very good.  I trust your math as much as I trust my best friend with my wife and that ain't much trust buddy.

[duck_and_run]

I said you had to win your first match and then go  1-1.  I would say the sectionals get the right wrestlers.  Maybe easier is not the right word, but it is easier for a good wrestler.  We usually don't leave behind guys that deserve to be at regionals.

 

We added 1 kid in 14 weight classes with 16 regionals.  Thats 224 more wrestlers.

[Galagore]

Now I know why you have so many boo's, you are a complete and utter moron.

Sectionals are not easier, most of the time winning one match would qualify you for regional and sometimes you just had to weigh in in the old system.  Now you have to win at least two matches.

Regional is only "easier" because they added the fourth qualifier.  In the old system you had to go 2-1 on the day, now you can go 1-2.  Not 1-1 like you are trying to claim.

I would like to see the numbers at the ss, since your math is not very good.  I trust your math as much as I trust my best friend with my wife and that ain't much trust buddy.

 

Break the addiction.....