WaltHarris

When small schools get good coaches, they have a hard time keeping them. Guys like Tonte and Harper all started at small schools, but quickly moved on. Tonte even upped himself going from 2200 kids to 3600 just this year! Unless something crazy happens I don't see Tonte heading to a smaller school any time soon...if ever.
 
It's extremely rare to have good coaches at small schools stay there for an extended period of time in wrestling. In other classed sports though you see a lot more of the top coaches staying with their schools.

Preface: I am only in support of two classes.
Here are some stats to look over
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r-4OoK27f6-4cfQlPpjYA--6h4Z9IbyXwmAwnAeo9cc/edit?usp=sharing
 
First and foremost I'm a fan of wrestling, as a fan of wrestling I like that we have our true champion, our spotlight, etc. However as someone that has coached at both big and small schools and someone that now promotes the sport I am left to wonder how much damage we are doing by having a single class system. There is no question that it "can happen" and "does happen."
Are we in this sport for just the state champs though? Are we only here as coaches and parents of this great sport for the state champs? I would hope not, I would think we are here to give our kids a great experience in this sport in hopes of they continue the great tradition with their kids. With that said does it really matter if you have to share a state title with others? Does Prairie Heights or Bellmont feel slighted by their titles this week? Do those in other states feel their state titles are "cheaper?" I wrestled in Ohio in college and when you'd ask a kid how he did at state he would say "champ, "3rd", "4th", etc...and very rarely would they include what division.
 
Now let's say we go to two classes and double the number of state qualifiers. Now we'd have about 10% of the varsity wrestlers qualifying for state, up from just over 5%. Note that this would still be one of the top 7 most difficult state tournaments in the country, so we would lose very little prestige. With an added 12 qualifiers for small schools(note approximately 4 qualify already) per weight we will see many more teams represented at the state finals. Many more kids, coaches, families, teams, and communities will get to participate in the parade of champions, enjoy a parade through the school halls, and all the other fun stuff that goes with going to state. Let's say 50 more schools are now represented at state each year(up from around 100). This means the sport is getting more attention at those schools, more attention then will trickle to the other students, parents, youth, and community. That kind of attention will help grow the sport.
 
When I was at Garrett as an athlete I was literally the SECOND semi-state qualifier in school history...that was in 1997! We were extremely mediocre and going to regional used to be a BIG DEAL. With a change of attitude and some hard work it is now expected that Garrett take athlete(s) to the state finals. After we got our first state qualifier the flood gates opened and it helped grow the program from the youth level up. Can that be done with the current setup? Of course, but again what are we sacrificing for our spotlight? Are we really hurting more than we are helping?
 
Lastly one typical comeback is, why not just increase the number of state qualifiers to 32? It would help, but in reality only four more small school athletes would get to state rather than 12 if you split into two classes.

What is the craziest thing you've ever witnessed at a weigh-in?
 
Back in the late 1970's we had the 98 lbs weight class.  The rules said you had to weigh something like at least 85 lbs to participate in the 98 lbs class.  So we are at a dual having weigh-ins and the opposing team had one really small kid.  This kid was tiny.  His natural weight was a little below the minimum but the coach tells me they stuff him with cheeseburgers to make the 85 lbs minimum.  The official asked the kid to get on the scale.  The kid was wearing only a jock.  As the official is sliding the scale bar to check the weight, I notice a bunch of sand on the scale floor.  Then I see sand on top of his feet.  The kid loaded his jock strap with a small bag of sand to try to be heavy enough to make the 85 lbs minimum.  The official noticed the same time did and figured it out.  The kid's eyes welded up with tears.  I don't think his coach knew.  We all just said go ahead and wrestle.  If the kid was willing to go through all that to wrestle, he must really have liked the sport.  It was the only time I ever saw a kid cheat to gain weight at a weigh-in. 

10 Reasons Why Increasing to 24 Wrestlers At State Helps Everyone
 
1)      Increase IHSAA revenues (tickets and concessions)
2)      More opportunity for small school participants
3)      We compromise on the class wrestling idea to create a win-win
4)      The team race would be more of a team competition
5)      Brings Indiana into line with other midwestern states number of state qualifiers 
6)      Wrestling would still have less state final participants than track or swimming
7)      Makes the state tournament more like our regular season tournament format
8)      Eliminates the annual Jankowski/Rosbottom SS ticket round of death match the entire wrestling community sees as completely unfair and unreasonable
9)      Gets us the SS 5th-6th wrestleback we want
10)    Why would any practical person be against expanding opportunity? This will grow our sport.
 
Related to the thread last year:
http://indianamat.com/index.php/topic/47693-expand-number-of-wrestlers-at-state/

You keep saying this, but the only reason it's true is because it's the one that we wrestle. If we switched and had the excitement of high school tournaments and the IHSAA state finals and the NCAA finals all using freestyle rules, the appeal would be exactly the same because our association with it would be all of those things we love.
 
We like folkstyle because it's what gets us to Bankers Life or a scholarship or an NCAA berth. If what got us those things was freestyle, its "appeal to the masses" would be identical.

If I have a beginning wrestler under 10 years old the easiest style to teach is freestyle. In freestyle you can go right into stance and takedowns. You don't have to worry about properly lining up or locking hands or any of the other ticky tacky rules of folkstyle that will cost a kid a point. On top of that you don't have to teach bottom moves either.
 
Freestyle can appeal to the masses if coaches and parents push it. They don't because "they won't coach an Olympic champion." However, the chances of coaching and NCAA champion in folkstyle are about as slim also.

That is not the case. The issue is freestyle is not a requirement like it was before all the national Folkstyle tournaments came to be. After the regular season you have DOZENS of quality Folkstyle tournaments. The number of freestyle offerings at that level are slim. Kids end up not training in it enough there fore end up preferring Folkstyle to freestyle. Then when it comes to getting 2 qualifiers in to go freestyle state or to go to 2 Folkstyle events you will get more going to the Folkstyle. I showed Freestyle I was at two qualifers with wrestlers and at Freestyle state. I believe the way the rules are are great (I could still do with out the push out though) The big flaw is that the time of and length of the freestyle season.
 
Think of it like this should a high school teams and RTC's be running freestyle practices now? roughly 147 of the total population (not including duplicates) are set to compete at duals and or Fargo. It makes more sense as a High School Wrestling coach to prepare the majority of your team for Next Season at this point. Since tournaments like Jazztown, Disney, IHPO, and Super 32 are quickly approaching folkstyle would be back on the table.
 
It's simple if USA Wrestling wants to increase the participation base of the international styles it needs to be talking to NFHS and NCAA to move toward a change. They also need to make Freestyle/Greco the Center of the Youth Season instead of a 6 week thing after Folkstyle (Maybe more of a ISWA thing?) I would also say we need more National tournaments that are Freestyle going out and possibly competing with the Super 32 and Flo-Nationals of the world. There just are not enough of those tournaments and the ones out there are not nearly as well promoted. 

I could not agree more.  Back when I was coaching hs, I coached over 1,000 kids.  Not one of those boys ever ended up being an NCAA folkstyle champ.  Not one of those boys ever even was a DI all-american.  However, the vast majority of the kids I coached walked away from wrestling loving the sport.  You do not have to be an elite wrestler to get something pretty valuable from wrestling all the styles of wrestling. 

I guess I'm missing the part where you have to be an elite level wrestler to be good at freestyle or Greco. Don't you also have to be an elite wrestler to be good at folkstyle?

Folkstyle will never change, we will always have this style in the U.S. However, the Olympic wrestling committee is going to the NCAA committee in order to suggest a few rule changes related to Freestyle such as the push-out rule and taking out ride time in order to make wrestlers stay on their feet and create action.
 
Ultimately Olympic coaches and most college coaches in my opinion believe that wrestling Folkstyle all year is "about as useless as a poopy flavored lollipop" -Patches O'Houlihan. Don't settle for taking your athletes to all these Folkstyle national tournaments after Flo Nationals, Folkstyle Nationals, and Senior Nationals end. In other words tournaments like Disney Duals, VA beach Duals, and Jazz town Duals are not helping our case in creating better international wrestlers. Indiana loves to go to these Folkstyle tournaments but IN is way behind IL, OH, and WI. If you look at the IN studs they all go to Fargo, JR or Cadet Duals, and Fila Cadet Nationals. Have your athletes attend camps, RTC's, and go win some freestyle & Greco national tournaments.  

The idea that "folkstyle makes a lot of money" doesn't make sense to me.  If rules were gradually changed over to freestyle, the old powers would still be the new powers in high school and college.  The fan base would still be the same fan base.  Casual fans would adjust quickly to rule changes because they weren't emotionally invested anyway.  Serious wrestling programs and fans would adjust quickly because they all know freestyle already.   Governing bodies of spring and summer wrestling would gradually switch back to all freestyle and greco like before and all the popular events would become freestyle instead of folk.  Oh, yeah, and we'd soon be competing for Olympic and World titles at every weight and the star power of well-known college athletes would shine even brighter.  Where do we lose money?

I don't know how many times I can say this: Y2 wasn't the only person disappointed by this ordeal.  The previous thread (and nearly every conversation I had at state) showed many people are upset.
 
ISWA just created an unfair situation.  Many of us emailed and called in March and asked if there were going to be exceptions to the 2 tournament qualifier.  Folks either did not receive a response or were told no exceptions.  
 
Then on April 29, the waiver letter comes out and a bunch of exceptions are made.  Now we have unqualified wrestlers (meaning those without 2 tournaments) who placed high and are going to Fargo or Schoolboy Duals.
 
I think the ISWA will be fine in the long run if they improve communication moving forward.  But there is no arguing this was a raw deal for those who obeyed the rule.  And there is no debating that folks are going to be quite skeptical of obeying rules for the next few years because the organization showed membership that rules really don't matter right now. 
 
To have one kid go to Fargo whose family spent $400 to travel to Indy to get a fs qualifier in and another kid go to Fargo who didn't wrestling a single fs qualifier because he had prom is not fair.  And it is not fair solely because the ISWA created this situation.  Everything will be fine for the ISWA so long as they as they engage membership in more online (facebook, twitter, etc.) discussion and there is never a repeat of this again.  

$910.00 for 1 and $998.00 for both will scare off most. Football coaches will stop some of the bigger kids. There will be lots of openings. 

I do not think the post was fair to Y2.   Imop, he is just advocating for an improved situation.   And he is clearly not the only one.   When a person reads the full thread, one sees plenty of folks with the same position.
 
Most reasonable people want a strong and vibrant ISWA.  It benefits us all.  A few tweaks to increase transparency is all it would really take.  A few examples:
-Stream board meeting online (google hangouts are free)
-Improve communication.  Notable policy changes announced on ISWA home page news.  Or via email. 
-Maybe bring back the old monthly/quarterly newsletter via email or Facebook.
-If we continue to have a qualification process, provide a transparent list on ISWA.com of those who are qualified.
-Engage membership in robust discussion about major changes. (Facebook or IndianaMat or Email or Twitter)
 
Not everyone lives in or around Indianapolis.   Modern technology can help tremendously with this issue.   The community outside Indianapolis needs the opportunity to participate without making a six hour roundtrip.
 
The heart of this issue was/is fairness.  There was a lack of communication about the 2 qualifier rule.   People did not find out till late in the game due to the lack of communication.  Then a letter comes out to clubs (not the general public) about a waiver, which confirmed members’ fears about the lack of communication creating an unfair situation. 
 
Just utilizing a few free or cheap technologies for communication would solve 99% of the issue.   I think ISWA will be just fine in the long run by simply proactively using online tools already at their disposal. 

I do not think the post was fair to Y2.   Imop, he is just advocating for an improved situation.   And he is clearly not the only one.   When a person reads the full thread, one sees plenty of folks with the same position.
 
Most reasonable people want a strong and vibrant ISWA.  It benefits us all.  A few tweaks to increase transparency is all it would really take.  A few examples:
-Stream board meeting online (google hangouts are free)
-Improve communication.  Notable policy changes announced on ISWA home page news.  Or via email. 
-Maybe bring back the old monthly/quarterly newsletter via email or Facebook.
-If we continue to have a qualification process, provide a transparent list on ISWA.com of those who are qualified.
-Engage membership in robust discussion about major changes. (Facebook or IndianaMat or Email or Twitter)
 
Not everyone lives in or around Indianapolis.   Modern technology can help tremendously with this issue.   The community outside Indianapolis needs the opportunity to participate without making a six hour roundtrip.
 
The heart of this issue was/is fairness.  There was a lack of communication about the 2 qualifier rule.   People did not find out till late in the game due to the lack of communication.  Then a letter comes out to clubs (not the general public) about a waiver, which confirmed members’ fears about the lack of communication creating an unfair situation. 
 
Just utilizing a few free or cheap technologies for communication would solve 99% of the issue.   I think ISWA will be just fine in the long run by simply proactively using online tools already at their disposal. 

By allowing waivers, they are opening themselves up to significant issues.   A parent told me if his son misses a Schoolboys Duals slot because of an unqualified wrestler, he was going to visit a lawyer on Monday.   It’s that serious for some folks.
 
This is just my opinion.   I think most people on here love the ISWA.   I firmly believe most commenters want to see the ISWA be a vibrant and strong organization.   Despite the fact many of us were disappointed by the two event rule, we still loved the ISWA and the sport so much we just dealt with it.   Oh, there might be a few true haters out there, but they probably number less than 10 folks. 
 
And because so many us care about the organization, we tried to warn the ISWA this exact problem would happen back in March.   For most people, the warnings came from a place of genuine care about the state of wrestling within the ISWA.
 
Now there is a waiver mentioned in a letter on April 29.  The wrestling community is once again responding and pleading with the ISWA.    Once again, for most of the membership this coming from a place where folks are hoping to protect the organization.   And once again, nothing but silence.   None of this stress was necessary.   And all of it could be relieved with one blast email or post to iswa.com or Facebook.  
Some are worried about a split.  What the community really should be concerned about is an organization beset by issues that becomes non-functional.    No reasonable person wants that to happen.  

This is a straightforward issue of fairness.  There was a rule.  People (including those like me who disagreed with it) sacrificed and followed the rule.  I am just stunned by the lack of communication from ISWA.
 
If waivers are granted that creates inherent inequity.  And that is not fair.  This is why most governments have laws banning similar practices.  If a bureaucrat gives a special favor like a waiver to a close friend or business customer who spends money with him, that is not fair to the rest of the community.  
 
The only fair thing is to maintain the rule.  Have two events, your in.  Have less than two events, your out.

This is a straightforward issue of fairness.  There was a rule.  People (including those like me who disagreed with it) sacrificed and followed the rule.  I am just stunned by the lack of communication from ISWA.
 
If waivers are granted that creates inherent inequity.  And that is not fair.  This is why most governments have laws banning similar practices.  If a bureaucrat gives a special favor like a waiver to a close friend or business customer who spends money with him, that is not fair to the rest of the community.  
 
The only fair thing is to maintain the rule.  Have two events, your in.  Have less than two events, your out.

This is a straightforward issue of fairness.  There was a rule.  People (including those like me who disagreed with it) sacrificed and followed the rule.  I am just stunned by the lack of communication from ISWA.
 
If waivers are granted that creates inherent inequity.  And that is not fair.  This is why most governments have laws banning similar practices.  If a bureaucrat gives a special favor like a waiver to a close friend or business customer who spends money with him, that is not fair to the rest of the community.  
 
The only fair thing is to maintain the rule.  Have two events, your in.  Have less than two events, your out.

This is a straightforward issue of fairness.  There was a rule.  People (including those like me who disagreed with it) sacrificed and followed the rule.  I am just stunned by the lack of communication from ISWA.
 
If waivers are granted that creates inherent inequity.  And that is not fair.  This is why most governments have laws banning similar practices.  If a bureaucrat gives a special favor like a waiver to a close friend or business customer who spends money with him, that is not fair to the rest of the community.  
 
The only fair thing is to maintain the rule.  Have two events, your in.  Have less than two events, your out.

I am still assuming based upon the lack of response by the ISWA and since there is NO CHANGE to the State Flyer published on iswa.com, that “All participants must compete in a minimum of 2 Local level Freestyle tournaments in order to compete at the State event.“  At this point, we are still undecided if we will register for State or not, but based upon the number registrations for Central Regionals, we probably have no choice but to attend. 
 
I believe that wrestling these styles makes a more rounded wrestler and exposes flaws in their Folkstyle technique.  I also believe the 2 required qualifications did help boost local attendance this year as the 2 tournaments we attended had some of the best completion we’ve seen over the last several years at these events.  However, I certainly would support a “well-documented and well-communicated” waiver process for those with injuries or those who compete on a National Level. 
 
If there really was change in direction by the ISWA to allow waivers this year, I’m sure it was a decision based upon the number of participants registered and the possibility of losing money on hosting the State event.  If they lose money, then we might not ever have this event in the future.  However, if next year they come out with the same ruling and say “This year we’re serious!”, I’m going to be very skeptical that things won’t cave in with low registration projections.
 
It’s frustrating that I wasn’t replied to when I originally inquired and that no communication has been publicized either on this board (other than Joe's letter), the ISWA website, on Facebook or Twitter.  Regardless of their stance, I think an official statement would help clear the muddy waters.  Who knows how many of these waivers were actually applied for and accepted.

Because I want my kids to follow the rules. I know it is something crazy in this day in age, but I prefer to not have to skirt the rules.

it's hard enough to get kids to train when the weather is nice. I have 7 kids of my own and when you try to make anything a requirement these days you are going to receive some resistance. When you ask parents as a club coach to make sacrifices and then they spend lots of mullah so their son/daughter to compete and then you say they are required to drive to either South Bend,Yorktown at Perry Meridian orthey can't participate at state? We had a small circle to begin with now parents are saying let's take some time off. We are making it difficult to attract newcomers to this sport and retaining career wrestlers. Freestyle and Greco are like the fringe of an already fringe sport. If we truly are out to help kids get better and increase our level nationally then we must do away with this red tape. Make things simpler so the kids can wrestle. Sad to say we will not be attending ISWA State.

It really comes down to an issue of fairness.  Wrestlers gave up baseball, track meets, jobs, proms to meet the criteria the ISWA established.  Parents and guardians gave up personal time and money to meet the criteria the ISWA established.  
 
Several coaches in the north created fs tournaments with little notice to help ALL kids in the north have a shot at meeting the ISWA established criteria.  ISWA did not respond to a number of emails in February and March asking for clarification on the criteria.  So all members had to go on was the very clear sentence on the ISWA web site: "All participants MUST compete in a minimum of 2 local freestyle tournaments in order to compete at the state event."  The ISWA web site doesn't say "we would like for wrestlers to have two".  It doesn't say "if you have a prom or broken finger, you can get a waiver."  The ISWA web site clearly says "MUST." 
 
It is only fair to those who met the criteria the ISWA established that everyone is held to the same standard. 

It really comes down to an issue of fairness.  Wrestlers gave up baseball, track meets, jobs, proms to meet the criteria the ISWA established.  Parents and guardians gave up personal time and money to meet the criteria the ISWA established.  
 
Several coaches in the north created fs tournaments with little notice to help ALL kids in the north have a shot at meeting the ISWA established criteria.  ISWA did not respond to a number of emails in February and March asking for clarification on the criteria.  So all members had to go on was the very clear sentence on the ISWA web site: "All participants MUST compete in a minimum of 2 local freestyle tournaments in order to compete at the state event."  The ISWA web site doesn't say "we would like for wrestlers to have two".  It doesn't say "if you have a prom or broken finger, you can get a waiver."  The ISWA web site clearly says "MUST." 
 
It is only fair to those who met the criteria the ISWA established that everyone is held to the same standard.