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Rookies03

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  1. 1 Turkey Run 161 2 Blue River Valley 185 3 Faith Christian 191 4 Frontier 227 5 Rockville 234 6 Attica 240 7 North Vermillion 250 8 Culver Community 251 9 New Washington 252 10 South Newton 252 11 Washington 254 12 Pioneer 260 13 Daleville 262 14 Lafayette Central Catholic 264 15 North White 264 16 Tri 267 17 Wood Memorial 274 18 Union City 279 19 West Central 280 20 Tecumseh 281 21 Southern Wells 282 22 Caston 290 23 Clinton Prairie 297 24 Wes-Del 297 25 North Miami 299 26 Tri Central 303 27 Triton 304 28 Clinton Central 310 29 Covington 315 30 Cambridge City Lincoln 321 31 Rossville 321 32 Sheridan 324 33 Northfield 330 34 LaVille 331 35 Fremont 334 36 Southwood 336 37 Hagerstown 338 38 Monroe Central 338 39 Carroll (Flora) 343 40 Hebron 349 41 Seeger 362 42 Adams Central 363 43 South Putnam 366 44 Fountain Central 373 45 Eastern (Greentown) 374 46 Knightstown 375 47 North Knox 380 48 North Judson 381 49 Shenandoah 385 50 Lake Station Edison 387 51 Tell City 389 52 South Adams 390 53 Wapahani 391 54 Eastside 393 When I look at the list that Y2 put together what jumps out to me are these 1A schools. I still believe 1 individual is not dependent on his/her school size to make it to state but when you hear the argument for class wrestling is that small school are struggling I look at this list. Looking at schools with just a couple hundred boys it would be very hard to find more than a few high quality wrestlers (and by high quality I mean kids that have the potential to make it to state). It doesn't mean that some of these schools don't have quality programs. It doesn't mean that there is this huge unfair advantage against big school. It just means they have so very few kids to choose from. Will classing wrestling do much for these programs? I don't know. When you only have 100-200 boys to choose from having more opportunities still wont change the fact that a certain % have no interest in sports, a certain % need to work, a certain % wont make grades, and a certain % just wont have any athletic ability. Whats the right answer? I don't know but its been a fun week reading all these post!
  2. If we went to a 2 class system or even 3 class the IHSAA would continue to sponsor a tournament that demands year round commitment... at least for the 3A. Isnt that one of your arguments for a class system. The little guys cant commit to year round because the big guys can. So in the big class wouldn't the wrestlers need to commit to year round wrestling to be able to make it?
  3. Personally I still think each twin has the same opportunity going to Carroll or Churabusco especialy if you take out multiple sports.
  4. Here is some of the Semi State data... For Semi State it comes out to 18.5% for 1A and 28.2% for 2A and 53.3% for 3A. I would imagine that the 1A % is even higher at Regional giving the conclusion that advancement is tougher for wrestlers at 1A schools. This would be consistent with the % dropping from state qualifiers to state placers to state champs Point #1 Im guessing a little of the disparity comes from uneven number of 1A, 2A and 3A schools at each sectional but the downward trend from 18.5% semi state qualifier, roughly 13% state qualifier, 8% state placer, 0% State champ indicates that the higher up you go the more difficult it is for 1A schools. This is all compared to 13% of total school population (You will never get me to buy-in to just looking at sectional entries). Point #2 All that being said... if you took identical twins and put 1 at Carroll and 1 at Churabusco I believe they have the same chance at being a state qualifier. Neither would have to "work harder" than the other. If they put in the same amount of work then they should both have the same chance at being a SQ. If you believe that point #1 is so unfair that we should give those kids more opportunities to reach the state by basically having 2 state tournaments then you are typically for class wrestling. If you believe point #2 that any kid has a shot as an individual in an individual sport then you are typically against class wrestling. Is either stance wrong? I don't think so... I think they are just different. We can talk about chickens and make belief varsity rosters or raw data but at the end of the day it comes down to a difference of opinion and not who is wrong or right. At least that is my opinion.
  5. You have done your fair share, no doubt about it. Im guessing it supports the fact that 13% of the student population is well represented otherwise you would already have posted it to support class wrestling. I already acknowledge the disparity. I wish you could acknowledge some points that others have put on here. Im not saying I am right and you are wrong. The great thing about debating is we can have different opinions. The bottom line is trying to identify the actual problem vs a perceived problem. Once you have the actual problem it is much easier to address. I agree with statement but it is not a problem that only small schools have. You say that a 1 class system hurts 1800 kids, if we go to a 2 class system then how about all the Regional and Semi State qualifiers of big schools that will now not make it out of Sectionals. In an earlier thread, hypothetical results were posted. I noticed several big schools only advancing 1-2 kids out of sectional. Those same schools had 4-6 kids make it to Semi State in the current format. So changing to a 2 class system indeed does HURT some wrestlers and programs. Everyone wants to follow a winner, as you have stated, so these programs will most likely decline, right? A lot of competitors think TOUGH = GREAT.
  6. Read my earlier post.... I said that the data shows that placers are champs are not equal to the population size. The data shows that it is harder to place or be a champ from a 1A school. What % of Regional qualifiers are 1A? Semi State for 1A? If the answer is close to 13% then the only thing wrong with the numbers is state placers and champs. Again do we want to make a change to the entire state tournament for 3% of the wrestlers (and notice Im saying wrestlers and not student population... that would be .05%). You can say yes to this question but don't say yes because its harder for a 1A kid to get to state.
  7. I never said 1A schools entered 13% of the wrestlers. I said 13% of the state qualifiers come from 13% of the student population. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
  8. Lets say that there is 1 state champ for every 100 male students (I know these aren't close to accurate but for simplicity sake). A school of 400 boys would have 4 state champs. A school of 1000 boys would have 10 state champs. Which TEAM would be better? This is why we class TEAM athletics.
  9. I didn't say school size mattered. I simply said that 13% of the state qualifiers came from 13% of the population. If 33% of the state qualifiers came from 13% of the population then I would say 1A schools would have an advantage but from a statistical point of view the correct number of kids qualify for state from 1A schools. This is based on population size alone. Classing wrestling is based on population alone.
  10. So according to your post we should keep 1 class since you only want to look at the 14 varsity wrestlers and not the 2000 Carroll students. Supporters for class wrestling use all these numbers but at the end of the day the % of state qualifiers matches up with the % of population within each class. Its not % of wrestlers entered in the tournament it is % of total population. If you cant see that then I don't know what to tell you. Now as far as placers and champs its not equal. The data shows us that it is harder to place at a 1A school than a 3A school. If you want to change the whole tournament for about 3% of all the wrestlers in Indiana then that is your opinion. Is more kids wrestling (not just at state but at every level) a good thing? Absolutely! Will class wrestling achieve more kids wrestling? I don't know. Only time would tell. Are there other ways to increase the number of kids wrestling? Yes. Improving the relationship of youth association. Improving youth tournaments (eliminate 12 hour long days--Heck eliminate the 12 hour long days for high school). Make wrestling as fun and enjoyable for all kids as possible. If you think class wrestling will get more kids out to wrestle then I am fine with your opinion but the rest of this is just white noise.
  11. Because you are using those 2000 kids to justify your stance on classing wrestling. Those 2000 kids give you more wrestlers. Those 2000 kids give you better coaching. Those 2000 kids give you better off season opportunities. Those 2000 kids give you more community support. Those 2000 kids MATTER in your argument for class wrestling. If they "have no bearing what-so-ever on wrestling state qualifiers in the state. None, zilch, nada, NOTHING" then we have no need to class.
  12. I appreciate your rationale on all of the questions I posed. I think this makes sense and is better than just answering YES. Yes a 32 or as some have proposed a 24 man bracket would be easier than a 16 but it is inclusive to all wrestlers. Doesn't increasing the number of kids at state accomplish all of your reasoning to the questions I asked? If we stay a 1 class system and have 32 kids make it to state wont: 1. More kids come out for wrestling.... 2. More kids go to college so they can come back to their HS to help coach.... 3. Make a kid more likely to attend offseason workouts.... 4. Numbers going up giving the chance for better facilities... 5. Increase school support.... So do you agree that increasing the state qualifiers from 16 to 32 accomplishes the above objectives? This doesn't prove that 1 class is better than multi class but rather just shows that more kids at state is better than less. So the most important question of all..... which is more likely to pass the IHSAA? Class wrestling or expanding our participants?
  13. Wrestling is a one on one sport of contestants of equal size and the size of the school doesn't change this. Better wrestling partners, better coaching, better opportunities of off season training, better facilities, more school support are advantages that some wrestlers have over others but this too is not 100% determined by the size of the school. If it was then Carmel, Ben Davis, Penn, North Central would be dominating Wrestling. Ben Davis went 30+ years without a state champ. Penn went 40+ years without a state champ. I use these two as examples because it was noted this year during the State finals. So my first questions would be if there was multiple class wrestling would it change the factors of: 1. better wrestling partners - more kids might go out but will they be better partners? 2. better coaching - I think this is determined by how much a school corp pays and will a few state qualifiers change how much a school pays? 3. better off season training - wont those small schools still be farther away from RTC and different opportunities? 4. better facilities - Would a school build a big wrestling room or weight room because of a few state qualifiers? 5. school support - I can see this improving but not sure how that would translate into better wrestlers? I don't know the answers to these questions I just think that the justification for class wrestling can sometimes get lost. If the goal is to improve Wrestling overall then wouldn't increasing the number of qualifiers within a 1 class system improve wrestling? Shouldn't the focus be on this vs class wrestling? Or is the goal to give an easier path for small schools to get to the state? Isnt that really what class wrestling does?
  14. This is a good point but I think there is a difference in "cutting" weight and "losing" weight. Cutting weight, to me, is drastically losing weight in a short period of time knowing the weight you lose will return. Losing weight gradually over time to make a weight is a lot different. It is a little naïve to think that every kid on any HS team knows exactly what weight each of his teammate will go year to year and kids are obviously going to grow but most of the weight classes are within 6-7 lbs of each other and 6-7 lbs of "losing" weight should be easy to do over a 6-8 week period vs 2-3 days before every meet. So I think a kid can "make" a certain weight to get in the varsity lineup without "cutting" a bunch of weight.
  15. Depends a little on the age. Middle school and below should be close to Zero. Healthy meals 3-4 x per day and a good hard work out every day will put kids where they should be. High School and above shouldn't be much more but you need to look at an optimal weight based on body fat %, energy level, strength, endurance, attitude, etc. If a kid is low on energy, strength and has a bad attitude all the time then they are cutting too much weight. Also, they should be fluctuating only a little day to day. If a kid is always going up and down its not good. Just my thoughts...
  16. With 3 kids pinning all 4 opponents this past weekend it got me thinking about if anyone had pinned their way through the whole tournament (Sectional-State). Blake pinned every opponent with the exception of Tonte in the Semi State final and even that was a Tech Fall. Has anyone ever pinned every opponent Sectional-State?
  17. These brackets are pretty impressive but what about some of the better upper weights. It can sometimes be hard to really say a upper weight bracket can compare when so many upper weights are upper classman and didn't place at state their freshman and sophomore years. I always thought the 171 classes in the mid 90s were tough. Gil Journey, Rob Miller, Dan Pleak, Will Hill, Dion Brimmage, James Brimm were all really good.
  18. You would need to start much earlier than 2pm. A round of 32 on 4 mats would take well over 7 hours (it is like having 4 full dual meets per mat). And full wrestlebacks at semi state would take approx. 15 hours if you used 4 mats all day (3 mats during finals, 3rd/4th and 5th/6th). That's just wrestling with no breaks.
  19. It's 80% to obtain your license. 90% to advance in the tournament series. Getting less than 98% hurts your overall rating as an official which can prevent an official from moving up a level.
  20. If more kids going to state will create more exposure then why not advocate to take 32 to state instead of 16 with 1 class. Doesn't this accomplish getting more kids exposure and more opportunities? Classing wrestling might create an easier path for kids from small schools but it also creates a more difficult path for some kids at big schools. After looking through the "projected" results for a 2 class system I noticed several big schools that would have had only 1-2 kids make it out of sectional but those same schools qualified 4-6 to semi state. If you have a big school that is primarily a basketball/football school and they can only get 1 kid out of sectional will we see less and less numbers in their program? Wouldn't that hurt the sport of wrestling?
  21. Coach Poyer does a great job and he is very deserving of this award but coach Gastineau did a great job too. Great with the kids and always had strong teams. HSE is very lucky to have back to back coaches like Poyer and Gastineau. Maybe 360 is the right description with "doing a complete 180" being more of a term for completely turning around a program.
  22. There is a process for approving a skin condition as non-contagious which allows a wrestler to compete and that has already been discussed. This process is actually in place to take the decision process off of the "untrained" official. Unfortunately unethical behavior has forced officials to make decisions on skin conditions that I guarantee they don't want to make. Is it the best system? No. Do wrestlers that are contagious slip thru the cracks and are allowed to wrestle? Yes. Do wrestlers that are non-contagious not allowed to wrestle? Yes. Arguing whether an official is qualified to make a decision on a skin condition is a waste of time. There are 2 ways to help this situation: 1. Coaches, Parents and Wrestlers make skin issues a non-issue by having good hygiene, washing mats and being relentless to identify any problems. When a skin condition does pop up during the season get it treated correctly. Do not worry about wrestling the next match until the condition is truly gone. Wrestling in conference with an iffy skin condition that a doctor signed off on (on the correct IHSAA note) doesn't mean much if your season (or high school career) is ended at weigh-ins of Sectional because the skin condition wasn't truly non-contagious (or at least doesn't look non-contagious to the official). 2. Coaches and IHSWCA demand that the IHSAA requires host schools to employee a licensed physician for Sectional, Regional, Semi-State and State. Charge $1 more at admission to pay for them if that is what it takes. Having a licensed physician at every "Major" tournament is not a realistic goal but I think it is very reasonable to have all the Sectional sites (and Reg, SS, S) have a doctor for weigh in. Most weigh-ins take 30-45 mins. I imagine the cost wouldn't be very much to get a doctor just for weigh-ins. Notice I didn't say anything about having the right note or training officials. These are not the problems. Getting skin conditions under control for the health and safety of high school athletes needs to be the priority not letting a kid wrestle at any event. And before someone says the condition in question from the original post wasn't contagious, I am referring to the overall problem of skin conditions and unethical behavior surrounding skin conditions which leads to a kid who probably should be able to wrestle getting DQd at Sectional.
  23. It is random and is different for every weight class. This prevents a wrestler purposely losing during the regional to get a better draw at semi-state. I believe the same concept is used at the State.
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