awood2

I am little taken back by the tone of the post!  I have wrestled the South Bend schools in high school, I have refereed the matches, and I have had the pleasure of getting to know the coaches responsible for the programs.  Miller, Scruggs, Hartman, and others put their heart and soul into these kids/programs.  I know that scores and pictures of champions get put in the paper, but...  Miller and Scruggs are class acts.  These guys produce men (and women) with character.  Scruggs coached the first and only girl wrestler I know of in HS in our area at LaSalle.  Hartman and Scruggs both spend their summers driving kids all of the state looking for mat time.  Give these guys some credit.  Don't think for a second that I have forgotten Flatt.  This guy goes all year long.  He has run the South Bend club, he brings in the cultural exchange teams, and he works closely with the referees association in St. Joe/Elkhart counties.  Scruggs, Hartman, and Flatt are all regulars at the annual coaches panel meeting for the St. Joe Officials Assoc.  These guys put in as much time, give them their due respect  >

The Jim Nicholson Invite, formerly the Elkhart Memorial Charger Invite, has always been a tip of the hat to the wrestling community in Northern Indiana.  Coach Nick, as we always called him, was as fierce a competitor as he was a friend.  If your team was invited to the Charger Invite it was a compliment to the coach and the friendship you shared with Jim.  If you were an official working the tournament you were hand-picked by him, mostly out of respect for you body of work.  Jim ran the tournament hospitality like a holiday party at this home.  He wanted everyone to come hungry (for food and competition) and leave happy.  The tournament is bracketed in pools to ensure everyone gets 5 matches when all spots are filled.  The management alwasys keeps everything on schedule.  The food was always the show stopper.  Coach Nick always allowed the parents to flex their culinary skills once a year.  The hospitality room was something to write home about.  If the schedule ever ran over it was due to an extended lunch break, and no one ever complained.  Coach was a very wise man.  Many of the teams involved would meet again at Sectional.  This tournament provided head-to-head competition that kept the seeding meeting arguments to a minimum in January.  Every detail of the tournament had to meet his high standards.  That went for his team, as well.  As one of his athletes you wanted to perform well.  As it was during my high school career, and well into adulthood, greater than any medal or ribbon were the words you wanted to hear from Coach Nick - I'm proud of you.  As all too many of us already know, cancer is a son-of-a-bitch.  Even as his time on earth grew short you could find him on or near a mat in Elkhart County any day of the week.  The pump he carried strapped over his shoulder was a reminder of what a tough human-being he really was; or maybe instead, just a reminder of what wrestling meant to him...

Can I be butthurt in this thread, too?
 

Wow.  It has been 7-8 years since I've been on this site.  And now that I am no longer an official, I am back as a fan (not a former official).
My head is about to explode.
I don't know where to start.
Wrestling Scholar...you are mostly wrong.
SIAC fan...you are less wrong than WS but still mostly wrong.
AWood2...you are mostly right but wrong on occasion.

I agree with your points about NCAA refs in your opening.  The point I was trying to make was that the enforcement was not what you would expect on a high school mat.  Having experience with both it was obvious.  Also, I am not the first person to bring this up.  To my knowledge it has been brought up and feedback has been ignored.  I felt strongly that it was not fair to the athletes and/or coaches involved.  Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people who are close to one of the officials.  My point is the same.  Due to the resulting personal attacks I will take my comments down.  It does not change my feelings about how rules were applied those two days of competition.  I have no dog in the fight.  I love wrestling, period.

I know the IHSAA is short on officials, but this holiday I saw NCAA officials on high school mats creating quite a stir (bluntly, a black-eye on our sport).  I'm gonna state the obvious - there is a difference in college & high school rules.  The NCAA officials taking high school matches need to understand the differences, why there is a difference, and they should agree to call the high school rules when on a high school mat!  The number of coaches with misconduct warning, team points taken, athletes losing their minds in the bleachers b/c they are shocked in the difference between calls per match at the same tourney, and even parents being removed b/c they were so upset after a finals match that was called by a NCAA ref...
not calling stalling on the top man (stalemate instead) out-of-bounds reaction time (the need for it) potentially dangerous holds in high school we want coaches to approach us when they don't understand so they can be a better coach for this athletes in all situations Finally, the NCAA officials I watched do not apply for the IHSAA tournament series.  Therefore, the coaches involved have no recourse, or voting power to rank these officials.  We are putting our best wrestlers on the biggest stages over the holidays and our officials shouldn't try to upstage the athletes.

I respect and appreciate the forum and the opportunity is gives for casual fans and wrestling supports to sound off.  This is the 3-4th time I have logged on this year.  When something strikes me that I want to share I am very careful to not use names or specific references.  I don't appreciate you using names and situations involving officials just to show that wrestling officials sometimes make calls we don't agree with.  Out of respect for the real best officials in the IHSAA I would ask that you remove the names of other officials from your post.
Of course, I did not voice my opinion to these officials.  I have worked this tournament.  There is no way an official should have to answer to anyone with $20 for a seat in the rafters.  That would be as inappropriate as your previous post.  Posting on a forum with no names, no name of the tourney, and detailing the difference in the rules is my choice of discourse.  You made this personal, and so did he when he direct messaged me.
Since you are so enthusiastic about making poking holes in my story here you go...
Fact Checker: The situation I mentioned was to your left, south end of the gym, during the finals. *paraphrasing some parts*
Athlete: "I can't compete against the kid and the ref too.  This is ridiculous.  How many times does this have to happen?"
Coach: "I know.  Just come with me.  There's nothing I can do about it." 
As they pace the walkway slowly making their way to the stairs behind me.
Mother: "It's ridiculous.  The same ref again."
Woman in collared button-down shirt: "You're being unsportsmanlike.  You need to let it go."  
She escorted her downstairs.  Later as I went to use the restroom she was still there with the mother as she talked to one of the coaches at the floor entrance door.
I will not share anymore detail out of respect for the folks who have been tormented enough.
To your other points:
Your claim that it was only during the finals is false.  I left one gym and never returned on day 1 b/c one of the NCAA officials told me to pass the message that he just gave a coach a misconduct.  I wasn't going to do that.
If anyone of my friends ever got on a forum and defended me the way you are defending your friend I would stop you.  As a referee of any contest at the high school level your ego has to take a backseat.  I understand it's different in college (b/c I refereed college for one season).  This is a place for us to talk all things wrestling.  I am not the first person to post a vague complaint about how a tournament was officiated.  This is the first time that the official I was referring to ever contacted me via direct message to defend himself.  I'll let everyone form their own opinions of that.
 
My lunch break is over and I am done posting on this topic.  Obviously, there is an enormous amount of bias on the site regarding this topic.  I'm sure we will see each other near a mat soon.  Two thoughts to consider if you try to bring up this topic with me near a mat: 1) If I am working the tournament i won't discuss things like this until I am done.  I will be working Saturday and I need to split ASAP.  Catch me another day.  2) I am not old, but my body is very high mileage.  If you get you blood pressure to high too easily don't bother.  I am only up for an enthusiastic exchange of words.  Just be forewarned, I have a huge vocabulary and I know how to use it.  Bring a dictionary if you have to.  

Ontherise219 - just because you have an NCAA credential doesn't mean you are a good and/or better official.  I want to apologize to any high school officials that may have read that.  Meanwhile, if you are an official as a general rule I would caution you to stay off the discussion board too. 
"There are a lot of officials that have a certain way they call matches not just “NCAA” officials. I would suggest that the officials in question are some of the best in the state." -this statement sums up my whole complaint.  If you think that sending an 'NCAA' official to the tournament means he is the better than the other officials you have completely made my point.
 
WOC - We agree on one thing... overall the officiating, and tournament, was outstanding.  My comments are based solely on my personal observations.  I am aware that I am not the first person to raise these issues (it's been discussed with them personally).  I am the first to mention it on this forum.  In response to your link, you obviously are not familiar.  Involvement in wrestling directly spanned 20+ years: athlete (high school & college), mat official, board member for local and state associations, state representative nationally (my favorite was the OTC for meetings and refereed Junior World Team Trials) and on a exchange trip to Japan.  Some people have even accused me of being a very good official for some small period of my life.  Imagine that. 
Question: What are your criteria for 'best officials' in the state?
The IHSAA has several criteria for ranking officials: coaches votes (1-5), attendance at local association rules meetings, years experience, rules test part 2, years tournament experience. 
 
Besides being friends & family - how would you rank all the NCAA officials you know based on those criteria?  The other officials at the tournament I was at satisfy strive to meet those criteria year-in and year-out.  That may have something to do with the calm, predictability that they bring to a high school match.  If you think that passing the rules test part 1 and agreeing to show up makes you a great official you are spitting in the eye of all the high school officials who are dedicated to the hours of training together to provide a decent, predictable scoring process to the wrestling.  

I know the IHSAA is short on officials, but this holiday I saw NCAA officials on high school mats creating quite a stir (bluntly, a black-eye on our sport).  I'm gonna state the obvious - there is a difference in college & high school rules.  The NCAA officials taking high school matches need to understand the differences, why there is a difference, and they should agree to call the high school rules when on a high school mat!  The number of coaches with misconduct warning, team points taken, athletes losing their minds in the bleachers b/c they are shocked in the difference between calls per match at the same tourney, and even parents being removed b/c they were so upset after a finals match that was called by a NCAA ref...
not calling stalling on the top man (stalemate instead) out-of-bounds reaction time (the need for it) potentially dangerous holds in high school we want coaches to approach us when they don't understand so they can be a better coach for this athletes in all situations Finally, the NCAA officials I watched do not apply for the IHSAA tournament series.  Therefore, the coaches involved have no recourse, or voting power to rank these officials.  We are putting our best wrestlers on the biggest stages over the holidays and our officials shouldn't try to upstage the athletes.

So what is your take on the call that singlehandedly decided the state championship last year? 

I was impressed by this kid, thinking he’s going to have a big offseason if he competes in national tournaments. I hope IU takes a hard look at him. 

Joseph Walker is a stud! Even wrestling while noticeably injured. 

Ol Angel is a smart cat he def knows who Joe Walker is.. with his kin wrestling at Edgewood you know he knows the studs around that weight and he's been recruiting heavily in state. 

Ontherise219 - just because you have an NCAA credential doesn't mean you are a good and/or better official.  I want to apologize to any high school officials that may have read that.  Meanwhile, if you are an official as a general rule I would caution you to stay off the discussion board too. 
"There are a lot of officials that have a certain way they call matches not just “NCAA” officials. I would suggest that the officials in question are some of the best in the state." -this statement sums up my whole complaint.  If you think that sending an 'NCAA' official to the tournament means he is the better than the other officials you have completely made my point.
 
WOC - We agree on one thing... overall the officiating, and tournament, was outstanding.  My comments are based solely on my personal observations.  I am aware that I am not the first person to raise these issues (it's been discussed with them personally).  I am the first to mention it on this forum.  In response to your link, you obviously are not familiar.  Involvement in wrestling directly spanned 20+ years: athlete (high school & college), mat official, board member for local and state associations, state representative nationally (my favorite was the OTC for meetings and refereed Junior World Team Trials) and on a exchange trip to Japan.  Some people have even accused me of being a very good official for some small period of my life.  Imagine that. 
Question: What are your criteria for 'best officials' in the state?
The IHSAA has several criteria for ranking officials: coaches votes (1-5), attendance at local association rules meetings, years experience, rules test part 2, years tournament experience. 
 
Besides being friends & family - how would you rank all the NCAA officials you know based on those criteria?  The other officials at the tournament I was at satisfy strive to meet those criteria year-in and year-out.  That may have something to do with the calm, predictability that they bring to a high school match.  If you think that passing the rules test part 1 and agreeing to show up makes you a great official you are spitting in the eye of all the high school officials who are dedicated to the hours of training together to provide a decent, predictable scoring process to the wrestling.  

Ontherise219 - just because you have an NCAA credential doesn't mean you are a good and/or better official.  I want to apologize to any high school officials that may have read that.  Meanwhile, if you are an official as a general rule I would caution you to stay off the discussion board too. 
"There are a lot of officials that have a certain way they call matches not just “NCAA” officials. I would suggest that the officials in question are some of the best in the state." -this statement sums up my whole complaint.  If you think that sending an 'NCAA' official to the tournament means he is the better than the other officials you have completely made my point.
 
WOC - We agree on one thing... overall the officiating, and tournament, was outstanding.  My comments are based solely on my personal observations.  I am aware that I am not the first person to raise these issues (it's been discussed with them personally).  I am the first to mention it on this forum.  In response to your link, you obviously are not familiar.  Involvement in wrestling directly spanned 20+ years: athlete (high school & college), mat official, board member for local and state associations, state representative nationally (my favorite was the OTC for meetings and refereed Junior World Team Trials) and on a exchange trip to Japan.  Some people have even accused me of being a very good official for some small period of my life.  Imagine that. 
Question: What are your criteria for 'best officials' in the state?
The IHSAA has several criteria for ranking officials: coaches votes (1-5), attendance at local association rules meetings, years experience, rules test part 2, years tournament experience. 
 
Besides being friends & family - how would you rank all the NCAA officials you know based on those criteria?  The other officials at the tournament I was at satisfy strive to meet those criteria year-in and year-out.  That may have something to do with the calm, predictability that they bring to a high school match.  If you think that passing the rules test part 1 and agreeing to show up makes you a great official you are spitting in the eye of all the high school officials who are dedicated to the hours of training together to provide a decent, predictable scoring process to the wrestling.  

I know the IHSAA is short on officials, but this holiday I saw NCAA officials on high school mats creating quite a stir (bluntly, a black-eye on our sport).  I'm gonna state the obvious - there is a difference in college & high school rules.  The NCAA officials taking high school matches need to understand the differences, why there is a difference, and they should agree to call the high school rules when on a high school mat!  The number of coaches with misconduct warning, team points taken, athletes losing their minds in the bleachers b/c they are shocked in the difference between calls per match at the same tourney, and even parents being removed b/c they were so upset after a finals match that was called by a NCAA ref...
not calling stalling on the top man (stalemate instead) out-of-bounds reaction time (the need for it) potentially dangerous holds in high school we want coaches to approach us when they don't understand so they can be a better coach for this athletes in all situations Finally, the NCAA officials I watched do not apply for the IHSAA tournament series.  Therefore, the coaches involved have no recourse, or voting power to rank these officials.  We are putting our best wrestlers on the biggest stages over the holidays and our officials shouldn't try to upstage the athletes.

This is clearly a case when either side can win the argument and wrestling still loses!!!  As a result to rules like this and the situations it gets us into we are losing athletes AND REFEREES!  I myself ended my career as a high school official b/c of the administrative focus of new rules.  
Why don't we start with page 1 of the rule book and ask ourselves - WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PUTTING POINTS ON THE BOARD?  If nothing, get rid of the rule.  If dreadlocks were really an advantage for putting points on the board we would all have them.  Let's write a rule book that supports the competition of wrestling, not the rituals and traditions from decades ago that have nothing to do with the fight for points!

This is clearly a case when either side can win the argument and wrestling still loses!!!  As a result to rules like this and the situations it gets us into we are losing athletes AND REFEREES!  I myself ended my career as a high school official b/c of the administrative focus of new rules.  
Why don't we start with page 1 of the rule book and ask ourselves - WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PUTTING POINTS ON THE BOARD?  If nothing, get rid of the rule.  If dreadlocks were really an advantage for putting points on the board we would all have them.  Let's write a rule book that supports the competition of wrestling, not the rituals and traditions from decades ago that have nothing to do with the fight for points!

Agree race not being a factor. My point is, how much does hair have an impact on one's ability? Little to none, and very little safety concerns. Like it or not, (even my young you should have a buzzcut/flattop thinking self) agrees this is ridiculous and going to hurt the sport we love. Kids are different today and most will be like the kid forfeiting instead of cutting the hair. Those kids will move on to basketball, hockey, and etc. This sport already has niche vibe that turns some away. Time to adapt and grow the sport.

Like my previous post stated, I'm throwing this in the same category as singlet vs compression shorts & shirts. Time for this sport to evolve from the era of flat tops (trust me I'd prefer kids to have the flat tops of other styles but that's not realistic). The official is probably in the right on enforcing the rule but wrong on where it was. The racialized part comes from his past transgressions. My problem is the rule and others like it. Kids see that and say nah, I'll participate in something else that allows me to be myself. A lot of wrestling rules written and unwritten usually have little to do with how well you can wrestle and turns good athletes away. Time for more culture change!

NFHS and its members like the IHSAA are stuck in 1950. Time has passed these organizations by and it's no wonder AAU and IMG, LaLumiere, and etc have started to take over. I'm not so sure that club sports wouldn't be such a bad idea anymore. 

I’ve seen kids go crazy after matches and not get called for anything and have also seen kids get called for very minor celebrations. Officials need to be more aware of the emotions that are running high and the kids might not be thinking as much about their actions after punching that ticket to state they’ve been working their tail off for four years or that championship they just won. I personally enjoy some of the creative celebrations some wrestlers come up with. I think most things should be excepted as long as it is not disrespectful to the opponent, or too over the top. That’s just how I personally see the matter 

Just kids being kids 

Man I hope so!   As his dad, I know my son would never lose if “karma” was an actual thing!  Lol!  Did he overreact?  Yeah, maybe.  He also immediately felt regret and without prompting took it upon himself (remember a 16 year old kid) to go speak to Hobart’s coaches, Tylor, Tylor’s parents, our coaches, his teammates, his family, and others. You need to remember that Tylor (AWESOME KID AND FAMILY!) and Brock have been very good friends, teammates and wrestling partners for years at RWA. Brock was extremely excited to win against someone he has so much respect for.  My son...no I’m sorry....my CHILDREN have been raised to be respectful and humble, and both are.  I couldn’t be prouder of Brock, the man he is becoming, the student he is, the friend he is, the brother he is, the teammate he is, and the fact that wrestler doesn’t even come close to the top of the list of great things he is!  He also would like it pointed out he squished a bug off his shoulder, not a “cigarette” lol!  Man I also really hope your “karma” comes back twice as hard on him this week!  Thanks for the motivation too!  Love the Peele Family! 

If your worried about or game planning at this point you already lost in my opinion. The 182 draw is great in my opinion. Good match ups. Alot of skill in the group. Noah will be ready as well as I'm sure everyone else will be. Good luck to all.