ENoblewrestling

Ok that is the situation for one team. You could say the same for Yorktown, whats their advantage? The better the team the better the practice partners. We beat several 4 and 5 a schools last year what is our advantage over them? If we start to use this Mishawaka example we are really talking about the level of talent on a team not the size of the school. Should we start classing that way? Mishawaka has alot more talent in the room than almost any other team in the state. Why not compair the disadvantage to a bad or even mediocore 5a room, I think its about the indivdual wrestlers situation more often than not as compaired with the team they wrestle for.

These are interesting facts, I dont think that our coaches association would be able to agree on it. Our state is split at best on the issue of classing the individual side. If we dont want it we pry shouldn't push for it as a propossal. Just because a vocal minority is pushing for it , it doesnt mean that the majority of the state feel it is the best for us.

Its not as though all of these big schools have a Tyler Wllis or a Sean McMurray for every kid to wresle. Ive always felt Jordan had some pretty good practice partners in our room. I wish he would have made the descion to wrestle in some more top offseason clubs, that would have helped, but I think he managed to do pretty well despite our "disadvantages". We have been having conditioning since school started. If I were coaching football my assitants could have run it. I also feel that our track, and football programs make our wrestlers better and stronger atheletes all year around, allthough rigt now I feel like our football teams success might be hurting our wrestlers early on but Ill take that if we can keep winning.

First off I think your overstating this whole big school kids only wrestle thing. I have never seen McCray play football, but im gonna guess he could find a spot on at most schools regaurdless of size, hes a big guy. Also track is one class so a regional qualifier is a regional qualifier (kind of like wrestling). There are a ton of kids who are great wrestlers who do more than just wrestle its about what they want to put into it. Small school kids can have that same oppurtunity that other kids have to wrestle in the top offseason clubs. Agsain your room apparently didn't hurt him to much.

It's reall the idea that in one you are at a disadvantage and in the other you are not. While I also agree that diluting our indivdual state tournament is a bad thing, it is more because of my feeling that all indivduals haver a chance in the tournament and that they can get to the podium if they work hard. If they are at such a disadvatage what would happen if a guy like Stein or Phillips or Howe went to a big school? Would they be somehow better? Were is their disadvantage. What about Mccray if he hadnt had to wrestle his whole life at such a disadvataged school would he have won many state titles? What if these guys went to Mishawaka, would they be national champs too? By the way in all honesty I want you both to know that I dont really think that. I wrestle both of your teams during the year and feel that your wrestlers are well coached, and hard working. I dont see the big disadvantage your talking about. You may not win every event, but your always competitive. The odds are that you will loose to bigger schools, this isnt because of some disadvantage, but instead because the odds simply are that smaller schools will have less top level atheletes.

Isn't the goal of a national tournament and a state tournament to find the best wrestler? they are both pretty damn prestigious if you ask me. The middle of the winter small school tournament, or the early spring open should be were some you lower yor expectations a bit. The state finals are open to everyone and the best deserve to be recognized for that. Also Ive explained why I feel classed team and individual events are different.

Thats not the point of what I was making. The point that I was making was that in the team tournament you are at a disadvantage because you need 14 guys. in the indivdual you need one, you, thus one man is not any worse off than any other one man. It is on them. Do you think that big national tournaments should be classed too then? If you go to Fargo and wrestle for a small school, or small club should you be put into your own lesser division. Should we class it by state? If the biggest tournament in America doesn't need classed why do we need it here?

that may be what you and Y2 want, but i would bet its not what a majority of the coaches want

The team is different in my opinion. The team takes 14, indivdual takes one. I have stated this before. For the team series I feel there is a disadvantage by having less kids as it takes 14 wrestlers to compete. You are more likely to have 14 good wrestlers at a large school than a small school. In the indivdual it is one on one. I dont feel it matters what school one man comes from. We have had a lost of champions, placeers, and qualifiers at small schools. There are more at big schools, but in my opinion that is because they are statistically more likely to. You always say that it should be a 50/50 ratio if 50% of the entries are from small schools. I see those same numbers and see the 75%, 25 % ratio we currently have as being fair because 75% of the top atheletes would likely go to big schools, because 75% of the total population go to big schools. I know you dont agree with taht but that is how that stat looks to me and several others. I dont think either of us are wrong, just see the stats in different ways. No one has answered my team state question yet.

I think that I can speak for myself, and what I believe coach Tonte, and coach Snyder feel about the issue. I believe that we can save the team tournament before the IHSAA kill it. They havent taken it away yet. I say work to save it before it is gone.

Yes getting more qualifiers is a good thing for a program as of right now. If we classed it I think that the dillusion of talent would stand out and people would notice. Its like a stated earlier, lets say it was classed. lets say i had a really good day at semi-state and Richards, Hamilton (twice), Mcparlan, Hill, Siddons, Nicodemus, and Thompson (regional qualifier, but a solid small school light weight) make it to state in a two class system. Wouldn't people question the validity of the accomplishment? Wouldn't they wonder how "tough" it is to make it to state under the new circumstances if a team that in its history had eight qualifiers, and now has eight in two years. people are not stupid they would start to question the validity of the accomplisment. I was blessed in my first two years as a coach witha few wrestlers I was fairly certain would make it to state. This year I don't have that luxury. I have a few that may make it, but nothing as certain as what I felt Hamilton was. Is that the systems fault, or mine, the programs, the kids? I dont think the system is to blame this season if I dont get anyone to state. So that is my answer, yes I agree that more staters is good for a program, but I dont feel that lowering the definition of what a stater is, is the answer to getting more staters. O.K. I answered your question, now its your turn, which is the best way to deside a team state champion a team tournament, or the indivdual tournament?

I am not saying that your ideas are completely horrible, I am saying that I personally don't agree with them. I just think it is really important to save the team state is all, and I don't think that throwing in classing the indivdual side with it is the way to go about that goal.

I have no clue as to why we have to class both, They are two seperate things. There are litterally two to three people on this post who are pushing for both to be one in the same and they are not. Originally this post was about saving team state, then the thread was "hijacked" and now we are talking about classing both, as if we cant do one without the other? Classing the team side is something that I think would get close to 100% approval. I would guess that classing the indivdual side would get about 50/50 at best. Why should we dillute something that we can all agree on with something that is heavily debated? They are not the same thing. I know im not the only one who feels this way. Again this is about saving team state, we can do this and class it without the indivdual tournament having to change. It doesnt matter how you feel about the classing of the individual side, the team state is too important to loose just because some people want to have the indiviual side classed. To those of you who want to class the indidual side, and dont seem to either care, or want the team state, how will we deside a team champion? I have asked this several times and would like to see your answer. What is the best way to deside the team champion? Is it with a team tournament, or through the indivdual tournament. If it is with the team tournament then lets work to keep it alive and leave our personal agendas behind for the time being. There is no way that we can get 100% aggreance on the classing of the indivdual tournament right now. We could on the team state, unless you dont see it as either important or the best way to deside our champoions. So which is it? The team series or the indivdual tournament desiding the team champ? If its the team side lets quit bickering and work together to save it, then you can start to work on the indivdual side another day.

After the coaches association meetings I sent coach snyder some ideas I had about showing unity with our association on this topic. I "signed up" to be on the comitee to save team state. I think we are waiting on word back about when we can meet and things like that. either way here are some of the ideas that I proposed to Derrick. This summer I got married. My wife and I sent out a couple of hundred invites with pre- stamped returns. we recieved a couple of hundred responces back in fairly short order. So with that in mind- 1. Send out a letter to each wrestling coach in the state explaining the importance of first keeping team state, then classing it. With the letter we put a prestamped "postcard" that they sign, and check off that they want to keep team state, and then check again if they are for the eventual classing of team state. If we dont recieve a responce we call the coach until we get one. In a few weeks I really think we could get 90% of the coaches to respond to this. 2. We send out a letter to every principal and A.D. in the state explaining what we want. If we can get the coaches letters back we could show that we have a 90% backing for keeping team state. They are representing us, if this is what we can all agree upon as being best for the sport I think they would be more inclined to back us.

Haha ok that was a bit of manipulation, at least ill admit to it. The point is that a lot of wrestlers would be affected by a classed team competion to, and not just studs, all kids. I really think that the chance at competing on the team level would effect a lot more teams than you think.

That is the number that I have alsways seen thrown out there. I mean if you finish top two at sectionals than you have a shot. That's the number Y2 and Karl put out there. I would say 20 eassily have a shot at making every year, maybe not winning it, but making it which is a great accomplihment.

Y2 and Karl you keep stating that you want a system that will effect the most kids. Using that idea then a classed team state would effect more kids in a way then the classed indivdual. Let's look at these two scenarios. 1. Classed team three classes, 60 teams with a legit shot. 2. Three indivdual classes, 16 qualifiers, 14 weights. 1. 60 X 14 is 840 wrestlers effected 2. 3 X 14 X 16 is 672 wreestlers effected This doesn't even take into acount that the individual side would only effect the studs, the team side would be all wrestlers good, bad, or otherwise. All kids on that team would be champions, and qualifiers, varsity, jv everyone.

Y2 you keep saying this is to help the really bad schools, but in a class system why wouldn't they still be really bad? I mean its not like if they class the thing the last place teams in the tourny aee going to automatically become a better team. If you finish last now they'd still get last in the small school tourny, they may get a few guys through here and there but not enough to change the program around. I think it would help the middle and second tier teams much more than the really bad ones. I also think a lot of the bad schools have more to their problems than the one class tourny. You even stated earlier in this thread that a lot of it comes down to coaches with the comitment to make their teams better. You stated this when talking about northrop.

Woould you support a class team, and one class individual? I'm have no real statistics but I really feel from just talking to others, and the little polls on here, and the IHSWCA meetings that it wlould be a situation thart could get great suppport from the wrestling community. I really feel that it would be the favored option by most. I also feel that for the class supporters it is a step in the right direction and one we could achieve and not loose the team championship series.

This discussion started out about team state, can we get back to that? We are not going to agree on classing the indivdual side so kts a waste of time. As far a the team side goes do you think that it is important, or are we better with the individual state deciding it all? I think that is something we could discuss. Also at the IHSWCA meeting we all had the chance to speak up if we were for or against the classed team state. While no vote was taken the questioned was asked for anyone who was against it to raise their hand. While no official vote was taken there was a chance to voice opinion against it and not one person in the room did. I felt it was pretty unanimous that most were in favor of it.

Y2 there is a lot that was covered in the last few points so I'm not going to address them all. So just two things that stood out to me. First off if all of those wrestlers mentioned earlier had so many small school kids ahead of them then why do we need to class it? You just proved that in all of the weight classes that I had semi-staters in thewre were a lot of guys from small schools allready right there with them. What's the need to class when they are all ready competing? You mention schools in our sectional that would not be affected by a team statre, why not? When I was in high school Northrop was very goood, they had several tough teams and that was only ten years ago. In the 1990s eastside was a top 20 ranked team in the state. Concordia had a state champion or runner up, can't rember, in lebau (sp) just a few years back. They may be down a bit right now, but I think they are all getting better, and don't see what the reason would be for them never being able to have success again if they did in the past. I wouldn't tell coach etzler that what he did was not an great accomplishment. I have never said that I am against classing the team side. I know you don't agree with this, but I think that the team side and individual side aee different things. In team sports it takes a team to have success. You are at a disadvantage if you have less people to fill your team. In an individual sport you only need one person. With my way of thinking then big schools will also have more individual success, because with more people you will be more likely to have more good individuals. That is just the way it is. It is not unfair in my opinion, just the way that stats work. I know you don't agree with those numbers and will tell me that I am wrong, but that is the that I believe most of the one class supporters see it.

Snider most of this discussion is arguments used by both sides in the class wrestling debate, not acctually about rthe number of weight classes. Karl I really doubt that most factor in the historical elements to your one class argument. The argument that I made is inhearently dumb and is ussless, most people I feel see the one weight class argument the same way. Rthey aere both ridiculous even if yours has a historical basis it is from a time so long ago it is no longer relavant. I know that you won't admit it and will not stop arguing so I guys you win. Either way even if you don't admit iit any reasonable person sees that argument as worthless. I see a few of your points wirh the class side, I really do I just don't think that lowering our level for the most important event we have is good, I know ypou donrt agree, but many don't want our finals to be weakend. I see the semi-state as a lower achievment that it is ok to allow more people into, plus it gives more the chance to make it to the ultimate goal, the state finals which are speacial, and different from the rest of the tournament and should be just for the best of the best.

That was also the first time that I have seen a class supporter admit on this site that classes water down the event. Generally it is argued that a 2a football team, or a kid from Ohio is still happy with their ribbon. Now that you admit that it waters the tourny down can you see how some would see this as a negative aspect of class wrestling? I also haven't seen you or Y2 answer the question abour the best way to deside a team champion.

I understand the point that you were attempting to make, the problem is that when this argument is made it is ussually a sarcastric remark to some who has made the one true champ argument, not a a way to show the silliness of the watered down argument. Generally when some one brings up the watered down argument the go to is that ohio kids don't feel it is watered down. Given that the argument is used more often than not to sarcastically say that we should have one weight class if we want to havea true champion then my example is the exact same as yours a sarcastic reaction to the idea that we need to have more divisions with in wrestling for competitive balance. Y2 himself says uses it against the one true champ argument in this very thread. I understand what you were saying, but you were not telling us how you actual use this lame argument.

One last thing please do not try to tell me that these two exagerations are different becasue they are the exact same thing. One says that if you want one class in wrestling then you need a ridiculously low number of weight classes, the other says that if you want classes in wrestling then you need a ridiculosly high number of wieght classes. They are the same I just dont use this exageration as a valide thought in the class wrestling arument. If you do class the indivdual side you could very realistically argue that all you are doing is lowering the standard of being a state qualifier. You are not creating a better, more competitive sport. What you are essentiallty doing is changing the definition of achievement. It would be the same if we expanded the single class tournament to say 32 wrestlers. You don't make the additional 16 wrestlers better, you just change the idea of success. Its a false sense of achievment. I know you will bring up tournament expansion in the past, and I in no way feel that expansion is something that is never needed. I just personally dont think that to make our wrestlers better in college, or just to create a more solid sport in our state,that we need to lower the expecations for our top wrestlers.