regionrumbler

First time all year OTR has disappointed me with a DUMB post.  Middle schoolers are just that in Indiana, middle schoolers.  They will have their glory on this page, but not today...there is a forum called youth and middle school designated just for them!!

Regionrumbler, I just read that under the NFHS rules a slam can be called if the ref feels inexcessive force was used on the return. Also it does not matter if the returners knee hit before the opponent hits the mat, it can still be called a slam if again the ref feels incessive force was used. My reading skills are on par I guess you can say since I found this. My apologies for saying safety wasn't a concern to you, and this sucks for both guys involved.

Chesterton was the team state champions in 1989, within the last 30 years.. barely

Ha...haven't had a chance to respond to all the goofiness that's taken over this thread. I will just say this: the committee has been very thorough in their analysis and made mostly the right choices every year so far--to the extent that they've excluded teams coached by members of the committee or closely connected to members of the committee. Having a huge number of returning starters was absolutely the reason a less-known team like Chesterton, who were never before in the top 20 in the 30 years I've followed Indiana wrestling, were chosen "on faith" and proved they deserved their spot this season. All the committee has to do is look at how Warren fell from being a national power to being roughly the 15th best team in the state--even with a superstar coach--when they lost 10 starters. It won't be lost on them that the same thing could happen to PM. If the process goes how it's gone in the past, things will be examined very closely and PM will only get the spot if they deserve it.
 
PM will be a strong candidate, but don't assume it's a done deal when there's a team like Harrison, for example, with so much coming back and a higher qualifying score. CP, CG, Castle, Chesterton all look like they'll be loaded next year too. As always, it will be an interesting process.

Oh boy Hungus you stepped in my arena now! I have a few tickets to prove it. If the IHSAA was as diligent as the ISP, there would be no discussion needed. Lol. I don't blame the Judicial System for my tickets...I earn them and I own them. Your point is a good one, and a great analogy. Sometimes I speed and pay the piper and sometimes I don't.
 
Here's my analogy: I liken the uneven application of the transfer rules to when you, Caprino and I are driving in a convoy to the State Finals going 20mph over and the lights come on and I get pulled over and you and Joe get waved on! Lol. Unequal Justice!

Hungus:Maybe we're talking semantics, but isn't the IHSAA "involved" in the uneven application of their own rules, simply because they set up the system of reporting of violations...ie. The schools contesting portion of the process. Obviously they know the end result will be some people getting investigated and some not, for the exact same violations.

Scholar: Thank you for making it crystal clear. That's exactly what I called the flaw in the system earlier. Hypothetically, two families can violate the transfer rules in exactly the same way and one gets investigated and loses eligibilty, whereas the other doesn't even get investigated. Difference: in one case it was contested, the other it was not. Unequal justice. Seems very wrong.
 
Btw, you mentioned a midseason transfer earlier...yep, that happened too this year and that wrestler will be wrestling Friday night.

That does not void the "past link."  If they deem you are moving for athletic reasons, regardless of your move, you may be ruled ineligible.  I am not saying any of the kids should be ineligible.  I wish the Moran's were eligible!  It was stated the Morans had actually moved to the Portage district before the ruling.

Colfax:  Are you saying you saw the Portage HWY perform a legal move (returned his own knee to the mat before, or as, he planted his opponent on the mat) and you applaud the ref for calling a violation?  If so, are we all so concerned with safety that we are okay with refs making up their own safety rules as they go?  How can a wrestler or coach have any idea what is okay to do, if it is all going to be subjective...for each official to decide on his own?  I don't think officials want that much discretion.  

Karl Hungus: You're probably right, but that "signing off" part, seems to be a major flaw in the system.  Why should the Morans be punished, because their prior school contests, whereas Goehrings and Demiens in another part of the state remain eligible, because their respective schools don't, when the rule violated is exactly the same?  Why doesn't the IHSAA determine each case on its own merits, and not leave it up to the schools discretion?  Justice should be fair by definition, and meted out equally.  As long as individual schools have a say in it, it can't be equal treatment to each athlete, because schools will differ in their approach.  The IHSAA should objectively look at each situation and rule independently. Shouldn't they?  Am I missing something?  If so, please set me straight!
 
It really sickens me to know Jonathon Moran lost something he can never get back, his senior season, through no fault of his own.  As coaches, parents and fans we get so tired of seeing kids quit sports late in their careers, for whatever reason, because we know from experience, what a special time of life high school is.  We try hard to keep kids involved...and yet here is a passionate, hard-working kid who was denied the opportunity to continue to pursue his passion.  If he wasn't as passionate and hard-working, he probably would not have achieved as much success, so...his school would have been much less likely to contest the transfer.  Which is yet another reason it shouldn't be left to the school's discretion.  Wouldn't we find it farcical to do the same thing with regard to a high academic achiever?  Example: A very gifted science student wishes to transfer to a neighboring school, because it has a better Science Department and a well respected Engineering Club.  Would anybody try to stop that academic transfer?    

Scholar:  Agreed. Penn's 120 transfer definitely benefited from questionable calls in both matches he wrestled.  Every time I watched him this season (probably because he's similar weight to the Morans) it made me question the transfer/eligibility criteria.  The Penn kid transferred and had trained at Penn and been coached by Harper in the off-season.  He remained eligible, whereas the IHSAA's "undue influence clause" was used to rule the Morans ineligible, because Vega had done the exact same thing. It cost the Morans their senior and sophomore seasons.  Last year at this time they were two of the rising stars out of the EC SS. So inconsistent. 

You're right.     We better come up with something good from West Lafayette, like free  Boiler Maker football tickets.  No, they could get those anywhere Cheap, that wont influence anyone:).  Maybe some XXX burger gift certificates. 
 
  Its definitely going to be a fight against the "Blue Blood Bias".  But if we spin  this right to the "Committee of Power",  we could say its starting to look like a club up there at team state.   Maybe we need some "New Blood" instead of "Blue Blood".  

Well keep the XXX offer vague so they don't know.    If it does come to Harrison vs Perry.    I like the argument of 13 returning starters argument vs only 5.

Nice! I like that idea. "New blood" is a good slogan! "XXX" might get some votes too, especially if they misinterpret what kind of joint it is

Scholar: Perry = Blue Blood! You better start lobbying for your Lafayette folks. In the Olympics, they bribe the decision makers...maybe you can send the committee gifts or pick up their concession tab this weekend. Let the wealthiest man win! JK

In a sense, this is true. But I'm sure their staff would tell you the points they left on the table in some other regional and semi-state matches where they were probably favored were just as big.

Harrison could of locked it up and is disappointing weekend to see they lost a few of the matches.   But they still should have a very strong team coming back next year with 13 starters back, and they're varsity B was very strong that had some guys that will compete for spots.  There points still should be in the 11 to 12 spot.   Harrison was in position to go to team state a few years ago, and they lost the vote in to a team they felt was not as strong and didn't  perform as well.  That would be sad if there was a bias out there against Harrison just because some schools have a big name.  I hope that's not what its about when the "Committee of Power" votes.     Not that Im lobbying, but the Committee of Power should not that Harrsion fans travel well.

Why cant you leave Perry Out?  Looks like they're not going to have as many points as other teams.

Scholar: Thank you for making it crystal clear. That's exactly what I called the flaw in the system earlier. Hypothetically, two families can violate the transfer rules in exactly the same way and one gets investigated and loses eligibilty, whereas the other doesn't even get investigated. Difference: in one case it was contested, the other it was not. Unequal justice. Seems very wrong.
 
Btw, you mentioned a midseason transfer earlier...yep, that happened too this year and that wrestler will be wrestling Friday night.

Correct, we don't know the details but the perception looks bad.    Maybe there should be some transparency by the IHSAA.    I'm also  not   aware   any  situations or details where a kid transferred to a new school during the wrestling season after being kicked off   the   previous   team for disciplinary reasons.    Im glad nothing like that happened, because that would look very irregular and hypocritical.

Scholar:  Agreed. Penn's 120 transfer definitely benefited from questionable calls in both matches he wrestled.  Every time I watched him this season (probably because he's similar weight to the Morans) it made me question the transfer/eligibility criteria.  The Penn kid transferred and had trained at Penn and been coached by Harper in the off-season.  He remained eligible, whereas the IHSAA's "undue influence clause" was used to rule the Morans ineligible, because Vega had done the exact same thing. It cost the Morans their senior and sophomore seasons.  Last year at this time they were two of the rising stars out of the EC SS. So inconsistent. 

Sounds more like a gang... the Culp & Caprino Cartel.  

I agree that there doesn't need to be a topic posted every time a ref gets a call wrong, but where has this idea that "if you don't like the calls, become a ref" come from? If you get a poorly cooked meal, do you have to become a chef before you can criticize it? If somebody does a half-assed job fixing your car, do you have to shrug it off if you aren't a mechanic yourself? Nobody is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, but we don't have to baby the refs every time somebody complains about their call. On the flip side though, we don't have to make threads on a message board about them.

I would question what constitutes a slam in the rule book. I sat next to a licensed official and he said slamming was a point of emphasis this year. I thought Bautista returned him with force, but followed him to the mat, so it didn't appear that there was intent to cause injury. I can't speak to the extent of the injury to the Penn wrestler or whether he was trying to win an academy award, but he seemed able to wrestle after the first two stoppages. I thought the ref got too involved in the match (I'm aware there is an officials link, Fabio, no need to share it) and should have allowed 2 talented wrestlers to decide who was going to state on the mat. I know neither kid, but from my spacious seat, I felt the fans were robbed of a great match. Removing all the "slam" points, I believe that's a tied match with a minute and a half left in the 3rd, with a spot at state on the line, that's what it's all about.