Galagore

Our conference is changing teams next year, and we will only have seven involved in our conference tournament. We are working on how to handle the bye in the first round. Scoring is unfair to the teams that don't draw the bye, not scoring it is unfair to the teams that do. Has/does anyone else been in this situation and/or have any suggestions on how to handle it?

No worries, thank you!

Perhaps I just overlooked it, but what time?

6 hours ago, UncleJimmy said:

Because most people want wrestlebacks…most people don’t want classes! Damn u @Galagore…u had to suck me in. Didn’t even realize this was a class thread thought it was for conference divisions. 

Almost tagged you several times, but I knew...you'd find your way....

Why is everyone OK with people longingly wishing for wrestlebacks that will never happen, but we class wrestling folks always get mocked for longingly wishing for multiple classes that will never happen? The double standard continues...

5 hours ago, Cmoney125 said:

Well saying we are the armpit of high school sports is excessive. I've live in Virginia and South Carolina and Indiana is exponentially better than those states. Wrestlebacks are the only thing missing from making the wrestling tournament perfect. Let's relax with the hyperbole.

Well, wrestlebacks and classes....in reverse order:}

Really like your idea on how to class the sport in our state, and that's outstanding that your son had so much success. If any of my posts indicated that kids should be pressured into doing multiple sports, then I have misrepresented myself. All of my posts were in reference to my apprehension to pressure kids not to do other sports and instead to focus on wrestling. If a wrestler wants to go hard in the spring and the summer, I am right there to help them along the journey. If the baseball coach wants to try and convince that kid to play baseball instead of doing extra wrestling....well, that's exactly what I do do the kids who say they want to "lift for football" instead of wrestle in the fall. Never press too hard, but it's OK to make a pitch to a kid to have multiple experiences and help multiple programs growing up.

31 minutes ago, MatTime said:

@Galagore My issue is with the argument that I am reading in support of why there should be class/division wrestling. Your argument, I am paraphrasing, is that there should be because small school athletes are not able to focus on one sport and should not be penalized because of this because they have to wrestle big school athletes that are able to be single sport athletes. You seem to also argue that class wrestling will not hurt big school athletes so why not adopt that system. 

 

My contention is that adopting your argument would water down the state series and is not a good enough argument for why we should adopt class wrestling in the state. Accepting your argument would mean giving athletes who have chosen to make wrestling a secondary sport (I think you say this in one of your posts) the opportunity to earn a medal. It would make the smaller class division champs meaningless in a sense. 

 

Wrestling in Indiana is unique in that there is one champion crowned in each weight class. One athlete that represents the most consistent, if not the best, wrestler in their weight throughout the state tournament series. I don't think any sport that has multiple champions can honestly say they are the best in the state. They simply could not know this without a tournament that puts all of the best teams against each other like wrestling does.

 

I also take issue with the hypothetical of if every small school athlete only does one sport then that will be the end of wrestling in the state. Many schools do not offer swimming, golf, gymnastics, lacross, bowling, archery, etc., but these sports continue to exist in the state. Those that want to participate in these sports are very likely moving into schools that offer them or they are finding their own ways to excel at them through out of season practices and competitions on a national stage. 

 

I get wanting to give opportunities for kids to excel. But changing the system that crowns one state champion to one that create multiple, just for the sake athletes who choose to do multiple sports, in my opinion, is not a good enough justification or answer to the question that was posed. 

 

Perhaps we can talk about the impact it would have on transfers. If class wrestling/divisions were implemented would that lower the number of transfers that are occurring thereby strengthening small school program? Or, if we are going to make a meaningful change to the state tournament, wouldn't adopting wrestlebacks ensure that the most consistent wrestlers throughout the season get rewarded by being a placer?

 

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to understand my perspective. My argument is not solely based on small school wrestlers needing to contribute to other sports in order for the other sports to exist, but it is a major factor as to why wrestling at a small school has challenges different than wrestling at a large school.

If any of my arguments have seemed to indicate that a class system would have no impact on large schools, then I apologize for not being clear. Of course classing would make winning an individual title more challenging for a large school wrestler. However, if making things a little "easier" for the small schools waters down the titles, why does making things a little "easier" for the large schools not water down their titles? This is in reference to all titles and recognition one can earn along the way of a state tournament, not just the state championship.

Additionally, speaking to the multi-sport athlete and the potential erosion of opportunities, maybe wrestling wouldn't die out completely. My issue is with reducing opportunity for kids to do things that help them learn life skills and keep them out of trouble when they're not in the classroom.

If the small school division existed and all of those champions (now referring to the actual state champion) were considered "watered down," how does that negatively impact the large school division? And if a small school feels like they are being cheated, why couldn't they just elect to compete in the large school division? It is very difficult for me to find a group of state champions who are negatively impacted by a multi-class individual tournament.

18 minutes ago, MatTime said:

They are when nationally ranked kids are wrestling. 

 

I believe Purdue sent a representative to the finals and I am almost certain our D2 school had someone there. 

 

The top wrestlers are being recruited regardless of coaches attending the tournament. Most of that is based on their national level performance and the buzz around the national rankings. Something the wrestlers will only get if they are wrestling all season and doing the offseason national tourneys. 

Thank you, that was the point I was driving at.

2 minutes ago, Cmoney125 said:

Yes we should. Get better and stop making excuses. You could always move to any state bordering Indiana if you want classed that bad. I had to live in states that had 6 and 4 classes respectively and the state tournament was crap. It just becomes the big school division matters and the college coaches just come watch the bid division guys and no one even looks at the small school champ as a real champ.

You seem upset. It is not my intention to upset you. I just want there to be an equitable playing field based on school size. You disagree, and that's OK. No need to get worked up about it. It doesn't even really make me that upset that you insinuate that I/we don't work hard here at Culver Community. We work hard and we don't need to prove that to anyone.

Do a lot of college coaches attend our state tournament in hopes of landing prospects?

34 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 

Yea,  small schools get the raw deal.   But does the IHSAA care?  They'll never change its part of the IHSAA "Hoosier" DNA. 50 years from now   @Galagore grand kids will be posting on Indianamat futurama on why small schools have such a low success rate at the state tournament.

 

If wrestling is still around at the HS level and thriving enough for there to be a message boar where my grandchildren post, that will be wonderful.

12 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

You make really good points, and you aren't wrong. Coming from a big school, the mindset of the coaches is to get the athletes to focus almost solely on their sport. The baseball coach doesn't care to have their player wrestle.  In a small school, there is a good chance you are friends with all the coaches and know them by name when you see them. I would imagine you have talks about each of the athletes and the their strengths and weaknesses. You share the athlete. I don't think that happens at big schools too much so there are some advantages you have if the kids do multiple sports. Not saying it wouldn't be better if they totally focused on wrestling but at least there is that. I also truly believe that, for the bigger boys, wrestling is a huge asset to football. I think if you are 165ish and above and your main sport is football but you still get some offseason and mat time when you can you can still be very successful. I do hear you when you say even your mid weights and smaller wrestlers play football, since it is a small school, so that can be tough, but it can also make them tougher. One of my best wrestlers is football first and wrestling second and I am okay with that. Currently, he is one of a few of my wrestlers with a real competitor mindset but he has been that way since sharks in minnows as a little kid.

 

My stance is that either we class the state or we add more qualifiers and have wrestle backs. Our wrestlers deserve more opportunities because of how hard they now have to work.  I also really do see the advantage of classing for a small school and helping drive the numbers up. One of the reasons I would like to coach at a smaller school would be to get invited to Team State and be a part of that. Doing that at a 4A school while you are still trying to build a culture is a challenge. So don't get me wrong I don't disagree with you. I will just keep saying it's not rainbow and butterflies in big school land. We all have battles we are fighting. Keep up the good fight.

 

 

 

First of all, it is great that we can finally have this conversation in a civil and open-minded way. That wasn't the case ten years ago.

Second, my concern for the other sports is because if a kid wants to be able to play baseball (or ____ sport), they should have a baseball team to play on. This is not a reference to wrestlers playing baseball. This is a reference to any arbitrary Culver Community student. If we small school coaches push too hard and make our kids choose, then other students will suffer due to lack of options.

Finally, you are absolutely right that big schools also face challenges. You are doing as much right as anyone that I am aware of, and not just for your wrestlers. You have taken on the challenge of making an entire area more competitive, and that is outstanding. Hopefully we can all continue to truly work toward functioning as one wrestling community.

2 hours ago, MatTime said:

Of course not. But is the small school athlete really doing everything they can when the best competitors in the state are going to multiple academy practices, getting privates, and seeking out the best competition at national tournaments during the offseason? If they are not, then why should they expect to be champions or state placers? Seems to be an issue with expectations. Train to be the best does not mean train only during the season. 

 

In my opinion, the purpose of high school athletics is to build skills, character, learn life lessons that sports teach us, and, at the highest competitive levels, prepare for college athletics. Each athlete chooses what they want out of the sports they choose to participate in.

 

Someone made a comment about what the goal of the athlete is in the sport. If they plan to go to college on a athletic scholarship, then they are likely already one sport athletes. If they are looking to be a state placer at an individual sport, then they have to find a way to be competitive with those athletes who have higher goals. Nothing is given in the sport of wrestling.

 

Just seems that the underlying desire for class wrestling is to lower the bar to allow for more athletes to reach success solely based on virtue of attending a small school. If the athlete at a small school has the goal of reaching the next level, then they have to choose to do the extra things that the top kids have been doing since they were young. 

 

If we adopt class wrestling and force the big schools into their own class, doesn't that make becoming a state placer/champion easier for small school wrestlers? This is the crux of the argument. Lets be honest.

Of course that's true. Has anyone denied that or given any indication that they deny that? If we didn't think it would be easier for a small school wrestler to have success in a classed system, then why in the world would we push for it? Please, don't pretend we are saying something that we are not.

Doesn't having a single class system make it easier for a big school wrestler to have state success? If not, then what is the harm in having two classes? The big schools won't be any worse off and the small school kids will be better off.

3 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

I'm not bashing you at all. What I am stating is we all struggle with pretty much the same thing and it is very hard to overcome. Getting kids to fully buy-in and creating a good culture that will foster the mindset it takes. You are obviously very passionate so I would assume you are also a good coach unless you fall on the psycho side which some of us do. I am just saying big schools aren't all they are cracked up to be and we all have our battles.

Do you think your logic holds for team sports as well, or only individual sports?

8 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

Absolutely not. There are way more factors than that. What I am saying is that it can be done at a small school and it is done at small schools. Yes, your wrestlers need good practice partners. It is your job as a coach to recruit those partners and build relationships with them and their parents to get them to fully buy-in.

 

After working for years to build numbers and make a sport cool in a place where it isn't.  Here is where I currently stand. Numbers aren't everything and can be a bad thing if you don't have enough coaching staff and you aren't able to separate them into different practices. We had 50 wrestlers this year. I would much rather a smaller group of dedicated wrestlers than a bunch of kids that are trying the sport out and most of them will quit before they are seniors.  I have made that clear with my team and parents so we will see how many we get next year. 

 

I just don't see this as a sport you can be halfway in. Like I tell my wrestlers it is like not fully committing to a backflip. You are going to land on your head.

See, this is what I am not doing. I am not insinuating that anyone is not doing their job. I know what my job is. You probably do not care for me to run down the list of things that I do to attempt to cultivate a culture and retain quality practice partners, so I won't do so.

1 minute ago, aoberlin said:

I can tell you this much I coach at a big school and I have been the head coach for 4 years and I have yet to get a qualifier or placer.  It definitely hasn't been from a lack of effort on my part and the amount of opportunities that my wrestlers have.  I am biased but I think our technique and approach are spot on, but obviously that part is subjective and maybe it is me.

In no way am I questioning anyone's effort. If any of my posts indicate that I am, please direct me to them so I can review what I have written.

Are you saying any wrestler who puts in the appropriate time and effort in the off season has an equal shot at state tournament success regardless of school size?

1 minute ago, MatTime said:

Then the need for class/division wrestling becomes less substantiated in this case. Why create a system that rewards part time individual sport participants? Our state system rewards the consistent wrestler who is dedicated to the sport. I imagine that only a few of the top wrestlers at each weight are competing in other sports. 

 

I don't think "class wrestling is needed to help multisport athletes get a chance at winning a title" is the argument that wins the day here. 

If that's what you took from the post I made, then I am not being clear. Here is the question I am asking:

Are you saying that a large school athlete is just more likely to commit all of their time to wrestling than a small school athlete?

22 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

If the high school has a wrestling culture then there are a ton of advantages. Take Bellmont, Adams Central, Garrett, and Prairie Heights for instance. None of them have issues with their numbers. I think Prairie Heights and Garrett had like 50 kids this year. On top of that, I am from Eastside High School and I know how small communities work. Most of the time you will have the same last names flowing through the school so you have a generational culture of wrestling that is huge also. Having a parent who wrestled is a big deal when the going gets tough.  The reason I started wrestling is because it was the cool thing to do at Eastside in the 80's and early 90's. You don't need a room full of hammers for your wrestlers to have success. I will say you need 2 or 3 around the same weight that can push each other. Throw on top of the mindset challenges that certain demographics have or don't have that is another factor. 

 

I didn't read the whole thread but I think someone touched on it already. Here is the bottom line now for any of us. If you want your wrestler to reach the podium in Indiana you need to have an all-in wrestler that is willing to wrestle year-round with only a little bit of off time. Times have changed no matter if we like it or not. Yes, there will be some outliers here and there that don't fit this rule. Especially at the upper weights but for the most part, it is what it is.

 

If you state that you will always share athletes with other sports because it is a small school and you don't want to takeaway from anyone's pool then 110% you are at a huge disadvantage unless your school's number 1 sport is wrestling and other coaches accept that and are okay with them possibly getting injured in a wrestling practice during their season.

 

If your whole argument is you want divisions so kids can play other sports and still have some success at wrestling then you are correct. But that doesn't make it easier at a big school to have success. That is what you and your school system have chosen.

 

So...if a wrestler is working hard enough and is giving it enough of his or her off season time, then that wrestler has an equal shot to get to the podium, regardless of school size? Then why are there so many more large school wrestlers earning medals at state? Are large school kids just all out working the small school kids?

My whole argument is not wanting divisions so kids can play other sports, but that is a big pillar. And I am not sure about where you are, but in most small schools and for most kids, wrestling is the "other" sport. Therefore, it is prudent of me to respect their space, so they will respect my space.

11 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

Could be a spelling check as well, English is my 2nd language. “The” 

Maybe if they let me edit my post. 

 

Galagore was actually my D&D name in high school. Yeah, I am that cool.

10 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

Having coached at a small school, and a medium sized school I think the following are possible advantages to the small school.

More one on one focus from coaching staff.

Better chance to be varsity for four years.

Better recognition for "smaller" accomplishments- one the wall for sectional champ at small school, state placer at bigger school.

I was able to have more coaches at the smaller school.

If all of the athletic programs are solid and on the same page, the athlete is in a great strength and conditioning program year round... this is generally the same at EN as almost all of our wrestlers are 2-3 sport athletes.  

 

On the team side our teams have generally been better at EN, but at Busco it was easier to get a random kid from the hallway to fill in if we needed a weight class filled than at EN. 

Winning team state is more attainable at a small school imo , where the competition is not as dependent on having a lot of state level kids, and more on just producing a squad of 14 solid wrestlers.

 

 

 

Do you think having more one-on-one with coaches outweighs the benefit of quality practice partners? Everyone goes to RTCs and RWOs in the off season because of the quality partners they get to work with.

Do you think having a better chance at varsity outweighs the benefit of having to compete for your spot? Competing for a varsity spot is one of the things people highlight about our best programs.

If getting "on the wall" is beneficial to a wrestler, wouldn't it make more sense to give more kids the opportunity to win titles? This actually sounds like an argument in favor of classed individual tournaments.

Having more coaches is something that doesn't seem universal to the small school experience. We see schools with the same coaches at our varsity, middle school, and elementary school events. That one may have been unique to Churubusco.

Are you saying that all of the athletic programs being on the same page is more likely to happen at a small school? If so, see previous paragraph.

Winning team state is something I will have to defer to someone else, as we have never even been in the running, so it is hard for me to comment on whether it is easier or harder to win in any given division.

2 minutes ago, AndyStJ said:

Man it is hard to figure out when someone is serious and when they are joking. 

 

Like the buddy of mine who used to post that cannibalism wasn't so bad. You think you know someone.

In your defense, the lack of how obvious that is is also kinda the point. Your confusion is what he seeks, though he does not seek to confuse you personally.

2 hours ago, aoberlin said:

This isn't just a small school problem. It's a kid and what are their goals problem. They will always find something else they can be doing other than grinding if they truly aren't bought in. Not saying small schools don't have challenges because they do. But I will also say they have some benefits. 

What are the benefits for an individual who attends a small school and wants to maximize wrestling success?

59 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

It can be even worse at a big school,our baseball team cuts pretty hard and the kids they cut surprise me. If we have an athlete who is good enough to make the baseball team they very very rarely will choose wrestling. Baseball is very popular around here so they are snagging some really really good athletes.   I sometimes let my freshman do both at the end of the season because I know they probably will not make the team and come back to wrestling. I have some of my best wrestlers who love baseball so much that they hardly do any off-season so they can play travel baseball and fall ball to try to make a team they never make. All the way up to their senior year. Our football team requires so much time for athletes to make the team you hardly get to see them in the off-season.

 

IMO and I have been coaching for a long time and I have put everything I have including all my time and money into trying to turn this area and this big beast of a school around and it all comes down to culture and building that culture. If there is no culture at your school or your area that is very very hard and can sometimes feel impossible. This is why I think it is very important to build the culture up for the whole area. 

 

When I see the social media posts of firetrucks rolling through the town for State qualifiers or pictures of wrestlers over top of railroad bridges my heart aches for that stuff. This is just my opinion but I think a nice 2A school would be a great place to be coaching but that isn't where my life took me. We won Sectionals 2 years in a row and qualified all 14 to regionals and then had a ton of semi-state qualifiers. I think it made the announcements. (Maybe). 

 

The bottom line is we all have our challenges for sure. With that said I am not against class wrestling anymore since we can't get wrestlebacks and our kids deserve more opportunities. More quailfiers and wrestlebacks and I will be a happy camper.

 

 

 

What are the benefits of trying to be as competitive as possible while wrestling at a small school?

1 minute ago, AndyStJ said:

We are always going to disagree here.

You may see the lack of wrestlebacks as exciting but I see Henderson vs Haines in the ticket round, with only one of them going, as an abomination. Both wrestlers have put in the work and are the bad draws, but blind luck of the draw combined with the lack of wrestlebacks means that the question of the top 4 semistate wrestlers on the day is not even considered. And it easily could be.

Add a round of wrestlebacks to semistate and qualifying gets harder. You have to win 3 matches instead of 2 to qualify, and the third will always be against someone out of your pod who has already won 2 matches. Add wrestlebacks to the State Finals and you need to win 2 matches to place instead of 1. That is way more exciting to me. If you really want exciting, watch the blood round at Fargo or Super32 or NCAAs.

Wrestlebacks would make Indiana HS wrestling better.
 

@Y2CJ41 is making a point that the logic used to refute class wrestling can as easily be applied to wrestlebacks. He is not campaigning against wrestlebacks.

1 minute ago, MatTime said:

You are advocating on behalf of your school's athletic department, not for your individual athlete. We can not blame the athletes and their family for making a different choice. I think you would be hard pressed to find any of our 14 champions saying they didn't have to make a sacrifice to earn their title. 

 

This seems like the classic "have your cake and eat it too" situation. You want to win an individual state title but you also want to participate in other sports. You do not want to have to choose between focusing on being good at a single individual sport or playing other team sports. So instead of class/divisional wrestling, perhaps the policy should be all individual athlete's need to participate in at least one other sport in order to compete at the state series. Would that alleviate the decision making for the wrestler at a small school? Would that bring the parity that is being asked for?

 

It is a choice. 

No, it would not be something I would support.

Are you OK with there being fewer wrestling programs if the athletes at the small schools pick baseball and football over wrestling?