Kookie953

13 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Westforkwhite,

  And this Muncie Miracle.   Hey, if the small school wins,  then anybody can.   Fans love it but it was an anomaly,  but still burned into the psyche of the Indiana sports fan.  Its like the  lottery affect.  Some Joe hits the multi-million jackpot, then all these other people who are bad at math, think they can do it to. 

 

 

Do you mean the "Milan Miracle"?  Jimmy Chitwood of Hoosiers....errr Bobby Plump of Milan?  

My grandpa worked at the Chrysler plant on the Eastside of Indy but my grandma lived in Muncie, and legend had it he could sneak out at first break, make it home to "take care of business" around lunch, and sneak back into the plant by the 2nd break without the boss knowing because he would make his quota.  He was called "The Muncie Flash" because of it but not the Muncie Miracle.  

1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im always surprised by this data and the precipitous drop off.    I just wonder if some stat manipulation.

I did a little research, and saw an article on the Indiana State Finals had there lowest attendance in the two sessions in 2012 which was 22,820.    So if I understand correctly the finals used to be held at Hinkle on Butler campus.   It only held 10,000 people at the time.   So the finals games (granted 4 games) in 2012 worst attendance in class era is still 220% or 12, 280 higher than the best possible attendance in whatever year you pick.   Something doesn't add up.

Is this like the 1000 higher participation rate Indiana had in wrestling this year?  Still would like to see forfeit % compared to prior years.

 

 

 

I can't say I understand exactly where you're going here, but 1971 was the last year the Indiana  Basketball state finals was held in Hinkle.  It was then held for 3 years in Assembly Hall at IU, then moved to Market Square Arena for 15 years, and then the Hoosier Dome for the "Damon Bailey Game".  Finally landed at Conseco  / Bankers LIfe in 2000.  

• It's difficult to attribute to a single reason for why class basketball "hasn't worked"...and nobody is necessarily saying it hasn't.  But it hasn't been as successful as promised.  I know this because my senior year was the last year for the single class tournament, and I actually spoke out against it as a player to the IHSAA.  (For those that know me personally, don't laugh...yes I used to play basketball.  Screw you for giggling).  Full disclosure, I came from a huge 6A high school.  But a few things have definitely hurt attendance.  Most important was the killing of geographic rivalries in the sectional.  When smaller schools have to travel an hour or more for a sectional...when before it was 15 minutes playing against boys they grew up against...well that's dumb.  Nearly as important is defining "success" as winning a championship.  Do you really think winning a diluted regional against another smaller school isn't as meaningful as getting beat by a few points in a David vs Goliath matchup with the guys down the road?  Finally, specific to basketball and Indiana, Peyton Manning and The Colts happened and drew a lot of athletes to football.  Suddenly if you were a freak 6'3" athlete WR was as viable an option as SF or SG.
• That one is simple...in basketball you can win with 1 phenomenal player and a few average scrappers that know their role.  But that's unique to basketball.  Not so much in other team sports, although you could argue (and do see) a dominant pitcher in baseball that carries a team.  Obviously this argument is moot in the most ultimate of individual sport there is.
• I can't answer this.  I only know a bit of what Snyder did with the Cavemen since I wasn't really involved with wrestling, but my knowledge is that he killed it up there too.  All I know is that I see he and his staff devoting as much time to growing the sport and program at every level as he does to getting his guys at the high school to win.  If you watch him at any event, you will notice him interacting with all levels...from Kindergartners to middle-schoolers.  It's not a secret to how it's done, but it does require an extraordinary dude to make it happen.  But I gotta think he works as hard now in the off-season as he did up there.  

Just as a point of contention, the same argument (growing the sport and getting more participation) was also used for class basketball but the results haven't really been seen.  My point in bringing that up isn't just to say it was a failure per se...it's a complicated issue and there's a LOT that goes into it.  

But just as importantly, my contention is that splitting into classes will not dramatically have an effect on participation numbers.  A 1A school with a struggling program will not magically attract 20 kids to wrestle just because they think they have a chance at a sectional title.  It is a very real concern, when we have forfeits now, that you don't have 3 entries at 106 in an 8 man field in the 1A sectional.   That would suck. 

Equally, splitting into a multi-class individual tourney will not ruin Indiana High School wrestling.  Nothing will be diluted...it's not diluted elsewhere.  So I think we all need to concede that good points are being made on all sides.

I can only go by what I know, which is that I am someone that loves HS sports, is a coach at the HS level, and appreciates everything that HS sports does.  I also have first hand knowledge and witness to what has been done at Brownsburg, where a program was dead and is now the beast it is.  Sure, having BLee living a good 4-iron away from the school helped, but it's so much more than that.  Coach Snyder and staff have absolutely worked their backsides off to actively get the most out of the kids they have, but also DEVELOP the program from the ground up.  I've shared in a previous post, but I'm new to this sport.  My son is a 6th grader that started wrestling after vising Bankers Life in 2016 to watch the state finals...a trip we initially went on because I had some football players there.  I didn't know it then, but that lit a spark in my little dude.  After being a good basketball player his entire life, he surprised me last year in the middle of football season by stating he wanted to wrestle that winter.  

Was this due solely to the #PainTrain success in 2016?  Not hardly, but it obviously did have an effect.  Every summer, Coach Snyder and staff have a 1 day wrestling camp specifically for beginners.  But they don't just have it and show up and pass out Tshirts, they WORK it and identify with kids...and specifically target those with some natural ability.  So my son wanted to sign up for that 1 day camp.  He did, had some "success" in that environment (fun), and either Fabio or Snyder said something to him that took the spark and lit a fire I didn't even know was burning.  He then participated in Club, loved it, and now is in an academy practice after his middle school practice every day there isn't a meet.  All the while he still sucks at wrestling and gets it handed to him against older and more experienced boys, but knows in this sport that hard work and dedication will eventually be rewarded.  But, like anything, the encouragement and care shown by the high school staff at every chance really matters.

This is not unique to our family.  Numbers are up a crazy amount throughout the entire program.   

So why share this?  Because this class discussion is really about participation.  Here's some ideas I have:

• If you think you have to have kids that specialize in wrestling, get over yourself.  You gotta share athletes...and that truly means keeping your hands off during another season (besides showing up and cheering your a$$ off for one of your wrestlers).  Nathan Walton is a phenomenal wrestling talent...he's also a phenomenal SS/OLB.  Not once was he told to come to a wrestling activity during football season.  The same holds true in reverse...and at Bburg coaches will actively kick kids out if they are in the middle of another season.  This is a must if you want increased numbers for all. 
• Get team state (classed) moved to a different time and promote it differently.  I'm sure it's a long story, but why is the IHSAA not a part of this??  Why is it at the worst possible time (Over Christmas)?  Why are not more teams involved?
• There is no substitute for hard work...as a wrestler or as a coach. You're going to have to get out in the community and identify talent as early as possible.  You're going to have to develop them.  
• Make it fun.  There's a reason there is a DJ, spotlights, and a fog machine when the #PainTrain has a dual.  You think the little guys aren't noticing how freaking cool it is?
• Consider training for parents!  The wrestling community is awesome in how supportive it is...but it also suffers by the curse of knowledge and has a language all it's own.  If you have an intro event for kids, also have an intro for the parents in the stands.  Explain scoring, philosophy, etc.  It wasn't until recently that I understood that yelling to whizzer to a kid does not mean that the kid needs a bathroom break.  My mom, God love her, is 74 and never been around the sport.  I need to heed my own advice and not get frustrated when she asks me for the 149th time "why did that kid get a point??" or "why do they go back to the middle, and why is that other boy on top??"  

As a newbie my kid and I have gone hard core for the sport, but we're fortunate to be where we are.  If we had an average program or an average coach and staff, I'd still be posting on a hoops board somewhere.  And that is the same if we were at a 6A school or a 1A school.  Keeping this awesome individual tournament won't be the death of wrestling.  But neither will classing it.  Instead, devote energy to growing this awesome sport however and by whatever means necessary.

17 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

So in real life, like where you work,  Is the president of the company the only winner, and the rest of the employees a bunch of losers who get a year end participation gift certificate to their favorite local restaurant?   Are you the president/champion?

I get Jelly-Of-The-Month Club as compensation where I work, but I’m not really complaining.  It’s the gift that keeps on givin all year long.

8 hours ago, SWINfan said:

Isn't the loss by Brownsburgs 285 in the first round a big time upset?  

May have been why it’s one of the first posts in this thread.

30 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Great stuff. Welcome to the club buddy. This is a typical story here on the west side of Indy. Solid middle school programs, great clubs, and even better academies. Growing like wild fire. Hundreds of little guys grinding every night. Really excited to see what the future brings for all these youngsters. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah he was a decent basketball player but wanted to give this new sport a whirl...we don't do 2 sports in the same season and now he's a gym rat in a totally different sport.  I don't think he's going back...he only plays basketball with his buddies for fun now but his new stated long-term goal is to qualify for State one day.    

And I agree.  Seeing what's going on at RC and Contenders, the clubs, and the Middle Schools the future is bright.  Having the 2 first class academies, with truly awesome and caring coaches in Coach Red and Coach Parrish...it's a great time to be in PoundSignTheCounty.

I also appreciate the teamwork between the Dogs and the Orioles to advance the sport...my kid appreciated the opportunity to roll around with the AWC team as a wildcard and had a blast.  Going to be fun to watch in the future.  Thanks MattyB (if that is your real name).  

So time to take a quick break and provide a distraction to the loaded regional and SS talk.

My son is new to the sport...it was a little over a year ago that he decided he wanted to give wrestling a try.  Something about watching kids under the lights at Bankers Life in 2015 provided that spark.  So as a 5th grader he started on his journey.  

After a bit of research, we learned about Red Cobra and he’s been in that sweat box ever since...and most nights I’m also spending a few hours listening to Coach Red bark instructions to all the kids.

Now true confession time...I never wreslted myself and frankly thought wrestlers were an odd bunch growing up.  One dude I knew in Junior High covered his singlet in deer attractant as an “advantage”.   Another kid claimed to rub onions on his pits and “area”.  I was a basketball player and that was my love...I wasn’t tough enough to wrestle even though I considered myself a tough guy.  So needless to say, I knew next to nothing when my kid started and know just a tiny bit more now.

More recent confession, during our first few meets man some parents were going insane during a match while I just saw some kids leaning on each other.  My inner monologue said “dude, what’s those people’s issue?  They’re some real nut-jobs.”

Fast forward to today, and a solid year of Coach Red training has not only helped my kid but also his old man that’s been sweating profusely on the other side of the partition while Coach Red instructs like only he can.  What I didnt know is that I was getting C-Red Trained too.   Now I find myself automatically and instinctively barking stuff like “Get Your HEAD UP!!!” And “UP AND OUT!!!” Or “GET THAT TIGHT AND SQUUUEEEEZE!!!” Or “God gave you two hands SO USE THEM!!”  Its like I can’t control it.

So to all you parents before that I was secretly being real judgey towards in my head, because y’all were losing your minds (or so I thought)...my bad.

To all you beginner parents wondering why the big dude in purple is losing his mind in the future....you’ll get it one day.

One thing I’ve learned while my boy has really embraced and taken to this sport and the process...if you’re the parent of one of these high schoolers that’s putting it all out there in the coming weeks, then really be proud of it and where you are.  Make sure to take a moment and take it in.  Be proud they’re there regardless of outcome. Unlike any other, wrestling is an awesome sport that requires some real courage to even walk out there on that mat.  Sometimes it takes the eyes of a newbie to bring the obvious into focus.

Good luck to all competitors and teams as each step gets a little tougher.  I’m glad I’m here...and I’m glad my son has chosen to be a wrestler.  

<Pound Sign>HendricksCountySmellsFunny #PainTrain #PoundSign

As great of a wrestler as he is, he’s an even better kid and role model.  My son is a beginner wrestler in 6th grade that’s working hard to be like his idol, but frankly is really really far from being elite.  

Brayton still takes the time and effort to talk, mentor, and encourage my kid every time he sees him...and this is not unique to my son.  Brayton understands and embraces his role as an “elite” wrestler and uses that platform to grow the sport and make an impact.

As mentioned in the article, here is a dude that by all rights should be BMOC as a senior, but instead takes every free moment to lead the student section at other sports games.  As well as be a manager for the golf team because some of his buddies play on the team, which I have always thought is hilarious.

Cant wait to see how much he does representing our state as well as he’s represented Brownsburg.

3 hours ago, Mattyb said:

Nathan Conley down to 145. Will be really good at this weight class. 

Noticed that.  So they just swapped Conley and R Reynolds at 145 & 152?

Hi Jay.  Sorry I didn't see this in time.  I have a 115 6th grader always interested in rolling around if it fits in the schedule, so let us know if there's anything else you will be doing this season.  

I realize this is probably due to multiple state titles, but participation at the 2 Brownsburg Middle Schools is up considerably.  This year the 2 piece was "marketed" to all the boys and the wrestling team at one of the middle schools is double it's size compared to last year.  

I think it makes a huge difference, especially to middle-schoolers that are good athletes but did not grow up in the sport...and the idea of the singlet is pretty intimidating at that age.  There's a whole lot of newbies in the room now and I have to think the 2 piece uniform plays some part in their decision.

24 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Fabio: Broadcasting, coaching and reporting scores.  All at the same time.  Fabio can multi task.  I wouldnt be surprised to hear he was also grooming cats tonight also.

Correction.  He was so awesome tonight that the cats were grooming him.

5 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

Man, I have been out of Indiana wrestling for a while but after finally getting to page six I think I understand why all the fuss.  So the loser of a sectional pig tail match is out of the tournament?  Isn't this the real problem here?  I can't believe there isn't more outrage over that huge flaw in the system if I am understanding this correctly.

To address JMILL and the others who say you should always throw a kid out there to take a beating instead of forfeiting, can you please understand that you don't have the same problems as others do and that maybe a coach has a reason for protecting a kid.  For example, we have a freshman 215lb kid who will eventually be a very good wrestler but weighs around 195 and has 1 year of experience and is clearly not ready to wrestle a returning state qualifier level senior at 215.  He has 1 varsity win and usually does not make it through the first period but fights his butt off and takes his lumps because he is the only option for the team.  I want that kid to continue in the sport.  If I decide to forfeit a match to protect that kid and keep him from getting hurt or completely demoralized and drive him to quit, I think that is more important than your 1 in 8 chance of drawing into a pig tail bracket at sectional or allowing your kid to get 15 takedowns.  The kid is not a snowflake, he is the best lineman on our freshman team.  I feel it is my duty to decide what is best for that kid and his retention in the sport.  You can't expect a kid with 1 year in the sport to think that getting pinned in the first period repeatedly is fun.  He should really be JV but there are matches that kid can compete in at a varsity level, but they probably aren't against a team like Brownsburg.  If that means you get a forfeit, that does stink but it is not the end of the world and it will not cause your kid to quit.  I can't build a program if I can't keep kids like that, but more importantly we shouldn't run kids out of the sport just because we have a hole in our roster.

I understand your point, but if a kid is going to quit because he got beat by a hammer and he's a first year wrestler...he ain't a kid that is going to fight for your program anyway.  If a coach talks him up, encourages him, tells him the potential he sees...yet he still doesn't want to roll around and get better...well it aint gonna happen.  And you're better off moving on to someone else in the pipeline.

Somewhere the big ginger McCormick is shuddering thinking about getting to 195 again.

Red Cobra? Contenders? CIA? Mauer? RWA? Fabio Jr?

Interesting technique for sure...

Switzerland County wrestling is known for their neutral position.

I've often said that nearly every HS football coach in the US would be out of a job if the public were able to hack into and listen to the conversations said during games over the headsets.

I know it's the same during wrestling.  

I'm amused another coach was butt-hurt about it.  

Congrats and good luck to Gunnar...I had to deal with him on the football field and I always liked watching him except when playing us.  

Also a blast to watch the kid wrestle.  Good luck at West Point!

As a football coach, you are an absolute idiot if you don't try to fill your defense with wrestlers...and on the flip-side if you have a kid that plays defense and doesn't do a winter sport if you don't "strongly encourage" him to get in the wrestling room.  Even if he has never done it and only gets to wrestle JV (and do nothing but practice tackling 2+ hours a day all winter).  

Since I would love to see this topic get to double-digit pages...I wanted to clarify one thing.  Granted, it's a small sample size, but it's just an untrue statement that "big schools have kids that specialize".  

The state champs this year, which is a "big school"...half their kids that advanced to state are 2-sport athletes...and that happens to be the heavier weights that played football.  And they didn't just play, they all were major contributors.  The staff does an excellent job of working together and embracing multi-sport kids.

Heck, our kid at 145 really loves football and has really wanted to play...but he's really good at wrestling so we've tried to encourage him to do that.

I have no doubt our 106, 120, and 126 would love to give it a shot but at that size it might not be wise to play 6A football at those weights.    

Basketball is a different beast in this state.  It is interesting how we always hear about class basketball "ruining" the sport here, yet we don't hear that about softball, baseball, volleyball, etc.

Danville has recently had state champions and placers within the past five years.

 

Brownsburg also beat #4 Portage 42-9, what's their problem?

So that's what you latch on to?  LOL.  You ignore the "hard part" about building your program to compete with anyone and instead pull out a score?

Anyway, I have to get back to work.  Have fun.

How do you expect say a school like Danville or Cascade to build a program when they have a sectional dominated by the likes of Brownsburg and Avon? How do they build excitement around their program when they are getting beat 72-3 by the big dawgs and birds.

Fair question...and the same way that anyone else does.  As a coach you go sell your program.  You build upon small incremental steps.

Logan Boe seemed to do OK for Danville.  Build on that.  I see quite a few Cascade kids at Red Cobra.  I suspect there may be more at Contenders.  Develop your future.  Beg and borrow kids and make it meaningful.  Get buy in from the football coach that you're going to build better athletes together.    

And oh btw, the dual score for Brownsburg / Ben Davis was something like 67-10 (I would have to look it up, but BD only had Campbell win I think). What excuse do they have?  Does it not matter that Danville could compete with BD?  

I guess all I can go by is what I know...which admittedly is not much.  But I do think I kind of have a bit of a unique perspective because I'm that parent going through having my kid wrestle for the first time right at this very moment.  So maybe to add some color to this, here's our story and why I think it applies...and why the class we are in has nothing to do with it.  I've posted something similar elsewhere, but it's a good study in program building.

We live in Brownsburg.  My son is a 5th grader and just started wrestling in November.  He has been a football and basketball player his whole life, and is pretty good at both.  Not the best, but above average and has always made the "travel" or "AllStar" teams for both football and hoops.  Despite his success and most of his buddies continuing to play basketball, he made the decision this fall to give wrestling a shot (we steadfastly refuse to let our kids do 2 sports at once so that meant giving up organized basketball for a season). 

That seed to wrestle was planted a year ago last weekend.  I am also a football coach, and knew quite a few of our state qualifiers and wanted to support them at state.  My son is the ball boy Friday nights and the tagalong whenever he can.  So we went down to BLF last year knowing next to nothing about the sport, and watched our guys finish 2nd in state.  We figured out that if one dude "tackles" another dude you're supposed to yell "TWOOOO".  It was awesome.

Unbeknownst to me, that seed had taken root in my kid...until finally it was a few days before his tryout for his travel basketball team this fall.  "Dad, I think I want to give wrestling a shot."  

"Ok buddy...but you know that means you won't be playing basketball for your Hoops team, right?  And you will be wrestling really good kids that have been doing this since they were 4 years old sometimes...so you are going to get your a$$ kicked.  A lot.  And oh yeah, wrestling is really freaking hard for anyone, let along someone just starting in 5th grade."

"I know, but I really want to try it."

So he dove into club wrestling...something that Coach Snyder and Weisjahn put nearly as much time, effort and energy into (if not more) as they do with the high school program.  They INVEST in the youth (i.e. the future) as much as the kids going to State.  My son?  He fell in love.  The fact that the high school coaches know his name and have taken an interest in him matters a ton.  While i can't predict the future, and he's had some good success despite being a beginner...he may not ever wrestle for our high school.  If he does he may never wrestle varsity.  And that's OK...he at least has given it a shot.  And while he may never make it to BLF, if things continue as they have then I have a suspicion he's going to give it his best shot to get there.  The dude LOVES to wrestle.  

The so what...and why it matters to this discussion?

Had we lived a few miles east in Wayne Township, where the largest HS in the state (Ben Davis) has a pretty mediocre wrestling program (apologies to Donald Campbell, who was great)...my kid would still be on the hardwood.  If we lived a few miles southwest in Monrovia?   I have a sneaky suspicion that there quite a few kids just like my son that watched their own destroy the giants...and are now dreaming of one day that being them.  

I realize it could be interpreted that this story supports classes because in the Monrovia example that seems to say "winning state is important".  My thought is that if Eli Stock beat Matt Pennedalot from North Central Southern Eastern (Clinton) in some "small school state" in a 0:19 fall...that is not nearly as impactful as those Monrovia guys BATTLING with whomever, whenever, and wherever in sectional, regional, and semistate.  

Program building is sales.  Coach Snyder went and FOUND kids in the hallways to wrestle.  Anthony Cicarelli (state qualifier at 170) told my son on the floor of BLF on Saturday..."buddy, coach snyder came and found me my freshman year and got me to be able to wrestle here.  Just imagine what you will be able to do starting in 5th grade."  He and his staff INVEST in the youth program. The results are showing.  It's not because we happen to be a "big school" that is "doing well".  He found kids.  He and his staff developed them.  They bought in.  The cycle is repeating.

My son's observation as we drove home from BLF, pumped up about watching our team win it's first IHSAA team state title?  "Dad, you know what's really cool about wrestling?  I looked at that list of high schools with state qualifiers in the program.  I've never heard of a lot of those high schools!  And some of the really good football teams hardly have anyone at all!  That's awesome!" 

Don't mess with the single coolest event in high school sports...one that planted a seed in my kid's head and heart that led him to a sport he absolutely loves.  

Now back to some statistics.

We didn't miss the Irony. Were just recognizing the lack of creativity in the comment. Every year, somebody says something similar when they start losing the argument.

I know. I guess I forgot that I'm "unknown" here even though I've lurked for awhile. I was parroting the argument.

I do think it waters down the tournament, but my "just give them 6 classes" was tongue-in-cheek.