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Posts posted by Kookie953

  1. 3 hours ago, NSego said:

    Good information here.  We (Indian Creek) are just starting to host tournaments and I want the tournament experience to be GREAT...

    The only local tournament I've seen do this is the Dan Nelson tournament that Carmel hosts.  SO much better of a process to not have predetermined weight classes.  

  2. This topic is near and dear to me as I'm relatively new to the sport, have now been in two different states, and I have a kid that wants to be great but is by no means there yet...but is mature enough and old enough when he started to know the process (although he still does get down on himself).  

    But damn if so many don't take it too seriously, and others not seriously enough.  And they go together...especially when it comes to growing the sport.

    First and foremost, if you are running a tournament...AT ALL COSTS START THE DAMN TOURNAMENT ON TIME!!  As we all know, there's nothing more frustrating than travelling 1-2 hours at the butt-crack of dawn to get to a weigh-in at 7:30 for a "Wrestling will start at 9am SHARP" to which the wrestling actually starts about 10:15 if you're lucky. 

    Which leads me to my next point, which is the whole business of weight management and making weight and cutting.  Why are their weight classes for individual tournaments at the elementary level?  Except for maybe truly "elite" tournaments like state?  Group kids into 8 man brackets or round robin by experience and let them get mat time.  I love taking my kid to go wrestle good competition, but like Mr. Brewer said it's a little like "man, what am I doing?" when you make this effort for your kid to lose 3-1 to the eventual champ in the opening round then run into another hammer that finishes 2nd or 3rd the next round.  Yes, it was good he was "close" to the guys that finished strong...but also a bit frustrating to make that much effort into 2 matches for a tournament that started way late.  

    And it's not about my kid "winning" bur rather just making it worth it.  I'm the first to tell my son "If you don't like losing, get your ass in the gym and work harder".  But I also would like to see a value in driving all over and getting my son more mat time (which is why we all love duals). 

    I can see how some parents that aren't so into it can say "to hell with this" and disencourage their kid to continue with the sport.  I just think the target customer needs to be identified and someone needs to take the lead on making the sport more enjoyable all the way around to everyone, not just the die-hards.  Very interesting convo!

  3. 5 hours ago, Mattyb said:

    Your right we only had three make it to semi state. Just super proud of other two brainiacs that didn’t make it too. Both are super impressive. We had 5 total. 3 were semi state qualifiers. 

    Clearly the Brewer kid must have a really smart mom.  Only thing questionable is her decision on who to marry.  😀

  4. 2 hours ago, Coach Brobst said:

    Love the idea here too. Evens the playing field a bit and would likely grow the sport a lot because Football athletes (and coaches) are often not huge proponents of our sport (even though they should be with all the transference) because of weight cutting. They don't want their boys getting smaller for any reason. 

    That's an excellent point (and I'm a football coach).  We recently just moved down here to Texas, where wrestling and wrestling culture is not as prevalent...obviously football is.  You wouldn't believe how many wrestling people I've talked to where football coaches are the biggest obstacle to getting kids to wrestle, despite the transference.  

    But it's mainly due to the issue of cutting and the thought of the football coaches is their kids are now not getting bigger, stronger, and faster in the winter.  

    Yes, I'm doing my part to try to change that thinking too...but when your 175 lb running back or linebacker is all the sudden wrestling 160 then there is some merit to the argument.

  5. Mat-side weigh ins.  You said I'm czar for the day.  Haha.

    As a process guy in my "professional" life, the whole idiocy of weigh-ins days or hours before actually wrestling defeats the purpose.  It would literally take a few seconds per match.  

    You miss weight, it's a forfeit.  All the sudden you have eliminated your issue of kids cutting too much and people will wrestle their true weight.

  6. 8 minutes ago, jetwrestling said:

    This was the very point I was trying to make earlier and was jumped on for it. The size of school is irrelevant. The biggest factor is year round wrestling that is being done. I posted earlier that AC has several athletes that work their tails off year round, the difference is that it is in 2-3 sports. The kids that wrestle only are separating themselves. This is a fact and you see it in the rise of the communities that are doing it. 

    This is the biggest factor to their success. A small school kid can do it also, but at the expense of the other sports that they are being recruited to play by their peers and the other head coaches.  If we want all our programs to be successful, AC has to share athletes between their sports as there are truly only a set number to choose from in a school of 375 total HS students.

    First of all, I hope you didn't interpret my comments as "jumping on" you...I truly admire and appreciate what small school coaches do in all sports and I accept all the challenges you face.  It's awesome what you're able to get done!  I am just saying that not all "big school" kids are single sport athletes that specialize.  

    Nathan Walton was 3X All-Conference in Football.  Gunnar Larson from Avon was a stud on the football field.  Lawson Aiken was All-State this year in football, and Dorian Keys has a good chance to be next year (he was all conference).  Cody Edmonds was a starting DE and the 195 lb Semi-state wrestler.  Even more than that what I find amazing about Coach Snyder is he doesnt WANT to see his kids that are in other sports during their other seasons...and they are major contributors to his team.  That takes some discipline on a coaching level.  Now in the offseason and the summer...you need to be committed to whatever it is youre doing and it isn't easy but there is good coordination among all sports.  If it wasn't for a knee injury, Brownsburg's Division 1 RB would be putting on a singlet and contributing. 

    Good example, all those wrestlers that are football players go compete in the Disney Duals.  That takes some discipline for the football staff to give up a week in the summer to have almost your entire defensive line gone when every day in the summer is valuable. 

    So I truly do understand the challenge and do not mean to diminish it...all I'm trying to say is that it's not impossible to overcome but it takes cooperation and support from the AD on down to each individual coach.  That's obviously easier said than done, I realize.

  7. No, because there are no absolutes.  There's no limit to an INDIVIDUAL doing well.  I have never typed that a team dual state championship should not be classed...and honestly how the IHSAA crowns a "team" champion is stupid but that's another post.  

    There's too many outliers to any point about classing the individual tournament.  There are plenty of small school kids that do just fine to show that class of the individual isn't the end all to success, or lack thereof.  My point was to show that great wresters gravitate to the larger schools, and simple statistics show that a varsity wrestler at a large school is really good.    

    Logan Boe somehow is a 2X state placer at Danville...and again this year at Plainfield.  Nobody is saying that larger schools have some advantages, but those advantages don't outweigh changing the current individual tournament setup and further diluting the product.  

  8. And to add to my above post...if you truly are "elite" and have been and as a parent you want you child to be successful, then many times that's why those families migrate to a major metro area or move in to a school system with a great wrestling program. So success breeds success within this topic that nobody wants to acknowledge.  Just by the nature of the size of the program, if you're wrestling varsity for Avon, Brownsburg, Cathedral, Perry Meridian, Warren...you have to be pretty damn good just to make one of those 14 spots.     

    And another kid that comes to mind is Gavinn Alstott.  His family sacrifices and gets him to the best gyms hours away because the kid wants to work and get better.  So they go to extraordinary circumstances to make that happen.  He's a fun kid to watch have success.  Or is Floyd Central too big?  

  9. 25 minutes ago, Thor said:

    Tell me, how good do you think Asa would’ve been if you would’ve moved to South Adams instead of Avon? Is he still a 3 time champ in the national rankings? 

    Does Monrovia count?  Are they small enough?  Ben Dalton has done OK, and in a region with the heavyweights.  I don't know the kid at all besides seeing him around and seeing the work he puts in...but his wrestling career has been OK last time I checked.

    He's just one that came to mind.  And obviously Asa's talent has something to do with his 3X State Champ success.  

  10. On 2/22/2019 at 1:54 PM, Y2CJ41 said:
    Year Weight Name School
    1924 175 Estell Ritter Bloomington South Panthers
    1927 100 Robert Schuler Wabash Apaches
    1930 100 Willard Duffey Muncie Central Bearcats
    1939 95 Ralph Boruff Bloomington South Panthers
    1942 103 Al Lummio East Chicago Washington 
    1943 165 Emery Nemeth East Chicago Washington 
    1944 120 Jack Benson Bloomington South Panthers
    1946 95 Richard Perkins Muncie Central Bearcats
    1949 95 Howard Fisher South Bend Central 
    1959 120 Ray Webb Bloomington University 
    1986 98 Lance Ellis Indianapolis Cathedral Fighting Irish
    1995 100 Greg Schaefer Evansville Mater Dei Wildcats
    2000 103 John Sheets Bellmont Braves
    2001 119 Alex Tsirtsis Griffith Panthers
    2001 130 Blake Maurer Evansville Mater Dei Wildcats
    2002 112 Angel Escobedo Griffith Panthers
    2005 103 Eric Galka Hobart Brickies
    2006 103 Josh Harper Mishawaka Cavemen
    2008 103 Ethan Raley Indian Creek Braves
    2009 103 Cody Phillips Union County Patriots
    2009 125 Jason Tsirtsis Crown Point Bulldogs
    2011 103 Nathan Boston Lawrence North Wildcats
    2013 106 Chad Red New Palestine Dragons
    2014 106 Jeremiah Reitz Griffith Panthers
    2016 106 Asa Garcia Avon Orioles
    2017 113 Alec Viduya Roncalli Rebels
    2019 106 Brennen Cernus Culver Academies Eagles
    2019 126 Jesse Mendez Crown Point Bulldogs

    Little known fact, but Estell Ritter was held back solely for wrestling.  Also for farming because it was a tough crop back in 1924, but none the less his parents seemed to be concerned with his wrestling career.

  11. 1 hour ago, jetwrestling said:

    From my viewpoint of a small school coach. 

    The main difference between the large school and small school wrestlers is quite simply one thing: year round training. 

    Yes, small school kids have the exact same year round opportunities. But the huge difference is these small school kids are 2 and 3 sport athletes. 

    Adams Central- Football was in the 1A final four 2 of last three years. 16 of my 24 wrestlers were playing football. I did not get them at all from late July till Thanksgiving.  A couple ran cross county. Several are already practicing track and field and more will be going to baseball this week. 

    We have to share athletes to have a successful culture at our school. 

    We do the off season workouts, summer duals, weight room, etc. but the attendance is spotty due to demands of the in season sports. My huge advantage is that we have a really strong wrestling culture and support from administration and the community. 

    A larger school kid is more likely to specialize and take better advantage of the off season opportunities. It has nothing to do with working harder than the small school kids. The small school kids bust their tails the same, just not in wrestling only. 

    The out of season training that has emerged over the last several years has really separated the talent. The top level guys that train year round have distanced themselves from the typical multi sport athlete. 

    I do not want this to sound like excuses, but it is the reality. Our goals are the same as every other competitive program in the state. We just have to figure ways around some of the obstacles and close the gap. We do not say it is ok, that was a 3A or 2A kid. 

    Tony Currie

    I appreciate your response, but the big schools have lots of dual-sport kids as well.  Obviously the smaller weights don't necessarily play football at the 6A level, but the mid to upper weights sure do and seem to do OK sharing athletes.  I can only speak for specifics for Brownsburg, but there are lots of shared kids and no issues there.  It's a testament to the coaches of each sport there that they work together.    

  12. 42 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

    I’ve seen lots of arguments for and against class wrestling but this is the one I always love the most! 

    My question to you is this: is the sport about the participants or the fans? 

    I think we can agree participants, and if that’s the case all arguments for/against excitement in February are pointless. It’s not about fans! It’s not about us coaches! It’s about providing an equal opportunity for all athletes. 

    While I don’t believe it will ever happen, class wrestling WOULD help the wrestlers at small schools where they often must play other sports to help the athletic department. 

    My final question is this: When the fan experience argument is gone, what is the downside? Plenty of possible positives, but not one person has said what the negatives would be to the actual wrestlers.

    I just simply don't think it will matter...but it will make the Indiana tournament less meaningful.  It's the same arguments as class basketball, except basketball is actually a team sport.  

    That kid at the small school that "has to" go do other sports is not gonna all the sudden say "Yup, I'm going to bust my ass at wrestling and maybe have another dude's junk in my face while he cranks on my shoulder because I now have a chance for a 1A SQ.  Yay, wrestling!"  I just can't make that leap.  Wrestling is not track or tennis or golf.  You either can do it or you can't mentally.  So it doesn't matter...so don't mess with the coolest high school event there is for participants AND fans.  

  13. 15 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

    So you ask me to get you the stats, then say you would dismiss them anyways. That doesn't make sense. Comparing Indiana to Texas is not comparing apples to apples. Texas has had a state sanctioned wrestling for less than 20 years, while Indiana has had wrestling since the 1920's. Indiana is in the midwest belt of wrestling that is surrounded by states like Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan that are all very wrestling heavy states. 

    I'd much rather compare us to Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Missouri who are closer to our population and location. Those are much better comparisons.


    If there is an increase in participation at the smaller schools there will be a decrease in forfeits. I'm pretty positive on that.

    In 2018 there were no 1A(of 3) wrestlers in the finals, this year there was one champ. You don't get to cheer for those kids much at all.

    We'll never get agreement on the topicso I'll just leave you with this.  There is no evidence that a class individual state tournament will do anything for participation numbers at a small school.  It's not a magic bullet.  You think it might be.  I disagree, but respect your opinion.  I just do not want to mess with the event that led to me even being on this board, because it's the event that ignited the fire in my kid to go give the sport a try.  


    And I actually would be interested in forfeits in the Missouri 1A state championships.  The other states you mention are better wrestling states from an "enthusiasm" standpoint.

  14. 2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

    You obviously missed this...

    Year Teams Forfeits Per team
    2019 307 1014 3.30
    2018 311 981 3.15
    2017 308 845 2.74
    2016 308 860 2.79
    2015 308 740 2.40
    2013 312 649 2.08
    2012 312 684 2.19
    2011 312 617 1.98

    It is interesting that most states give away watered down medals and have very good attendance. Heck the Ohio state finals sells out every year and people are on their boards asking for tickets the week of state. i'd surely hate to have that problem in Indiana. Emotional responses to why we should keep doing the things we are doing don't get me going. Look above at our forfeits, it is getting bad, REALLY bad. Eight years ago I thought almost two forfeits per team was bad, now it's almost doubled. 

    As @Bigyusm said, they tried marketing themselves and not having a state placement or even being a qualifier hurt them. For smaller school recruiting coaches don't have the time to look in depth at 100's of kids and if they were knocked out by a state champion in the ticket round. 

    It's not just about giving watered down medals or recruiting, it's about the health and growth of the sport. Small schools are struggling mightily and it doesn't seem to be trending in a positive direction.

    Cmon Joe...correlation does not equal causation.  Wrestling is sold out in Ohio because it's Ohio and wrestling is big there.  It's also a much larger population than Indiana (as with the other surrounding states besides Kentucky).   

    What do the forfeits look like at smaller schools in states with classes after they went to classed tournaments?  Did they somehow start having kids beating the door down?  And if you have the stats from a wrestling-heavy state that doesn't really count.  Because for each Ohio I could give you Texas where I now live where EVERY team has a ton of forfeits because it's not popular here yet.  Hell, the 6A program where we live doesn't even have the sport...although they are supposed to be starting it up soon.  The other 6A program where my kid works out fields 9 out of 14 on a good day...and they are a national football powerhouse.  And the only reason they get those kids is because the football program embraced wrestling and they have a coach that diligently works to get kids out.

    While I sincerely appreciate your passion for growing the sport and the troubles and toils of smaller schools, classing the individual tournament will not help that.  Forfeits are not up because there is a single class tournament.  The participants can't see that far ahead for it to make a difference when they are deciding to join the wrestling team or not.  What would make sense is the IHSAA actually becoming a part of a true team (Duals) championship...and obviously classing that is the only way in which it's fair.  Being able to actually be part of a team and contribute to a true team state championship is something that might help.

    I always appreciate the discussion, but the individual tournament is special.  I always LOVE seeing the kids from smaller schools even make it to The Bank.  That should be celebrated.  

  15. 2 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

    Until this year my son was a one time state qualifier that got pinned on Friday night. He still got a good number offers from schools from all divisions of college wrestling. Sure high school wrestling helps, but I assure you that coaches look at WAY more than that. Get in the car and go find good kids to beat. Regardless of where you finish at high school state, if you go to a major tourney or a good dual and show out your email and phone will blow up. I assure you that 20 times as many college coaches are at super 32, flonationals, Virginia beach, Fargo, National duals, and even Disney duals. Go there and make a statement. 

    True story.. I took  team to Disney duals this year. My team went out there and warmed up by themselves. It was a nice hard warm up. Very few teams were moving and getting after it like we were. We were not in an All star division mind you. I hade three college coaches before we wrestled come up and give me cards and ask who was uncommitted before we wrestled a match. I has Jalen Comer form Mooresville on my team. I pointed him out to a JUCO coach. The kid was preparing to enter the work force after high school. Long story short he signed with that team! Jaden did get 4th at state. 

    Another one.. Sam Osho from Avon. Sam was committed to go into the military after high school. I asked Sam if he would hold off and keep wrestling and come to Disney duals with the team. He started to go with Mason Miranda to workouts at Marian. The nest thing you know Sam is wrestling at Marian and is a NAIA national qualifier a year later. Sam never made it to state. 

    With all of that said, there are different routes for all of these kids. The way you finish at state is a very small part of the college process. My biggest advice for kids that want to wrestle at the next level is as follows:

    1. Take your ACT or SAT early and often. After you take them get the results and practice taking the test over and over. From the end of your sophomore year on take Khan Academy or other study programs at least 30 mins a day 5 days a week until you score high. A high SAT or ACT can make things very easy for a college to sign you.

    2. Keep you GPA above a 3.5. See above.

    3. Stop putting dumb crap on social media. After grades that is the next thing these guys will check. Be squeaky clean or just delete it all together.

    4. Wrestle as much as possible. Surround yourselves with like minded college prospects and find good competition.   

    5. Reach out to the colleges first. Let them know that you are interested in them. Keep them updated on your career. 

    6. Take your time and ask questions. I assure you that you will know when its right. Look at Osho and Comer. They waited until after school and found spots. 

    7. If you put in the work. Wrestle 24/7/365 and keep improving, there will be an opportunity. Believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't be too proud to ask other to help.  

    Post of the year.

  16. 19 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

    If we kept the 16 man bracket for 2A and just had an 8 man bracket for 1A, 1A teams would literally DOUBLE their state qualifiers. 

    Here is a little more info based on percentages

      Student % Placer % Qual % Top 4 %
    1A 22.10% 22.32% 24.55% 17.86%
    2A 77.90% 77.68% 75.45% 82.14%
    1A 12.14% 10.71% 13.84% 5.36%
    2A 24.14% 25.00% 23.66% 23.21%
    3A 63.72% 64.29% 62.50% 71.43%

    And get a watered down medal from a tournament nobody attended.  Leave it alone.  It's the best high school event in the nation.  

    If you're worried about your kid getting recruited, get to the national tournaments and do some marketing with where you want to go.  There's not a whole lot of full-ride wrestling money anyway.

    Side note Joe...just IMHO a chance to "medal" is not going to be the deciding factor of whether a kid wants to wrestle or not.  You either like this sport or you don't, and no amount of hardware is going to change a kid's mind.  So forfeits won't go down simply because the tournament is classed.  The only thing that goes down is the excitement in mid-Feb.

  17. 3 hours ago, Perseverance said:

    Have to admit......I entertained the idea with Silas.  But ultimately.....had I done so, I would’ve outwardly been setting an example of athletics overriding academics.  And that’s a major breach of the Allred’s household priority line.

    Being fully transparent.....Regardless of my sons success through relentless hard work, I still frequently think on the “what if’s”.  He could legit be a sophomore right now and not such a young junior.  Increased accolades in-state and Nationally would undoubtedly be attained.  But ultimately....if athletics isn’t the back up plan to education/career, we’re setting our kids up for misaligned values.  Make no mistake.....Silas plans to take the sport as far as his health, work ethic and God allows.  But one reality we’ve embraced.....is that the events of tomorrow can never be fully predicted.  And in retrospect......being young for his class and having to work harder to compensate for the age gap, has likely benefited his long term success and character much more than any medal could.  And rest assured, as it pertains to the topic of age/success/recruiting......programs are very aware of an athletes age/projection. So in most instances.....being young and successful is even more appealing to recruiters.  And that “success” I refer to here.....goes far beyond what an athlete accomplishes in their particular sport.  Character & Classroom has to come first.

    Kudos to you, sir...and it's not mystery on why Silas is as successful as he is.  Your response here is incredibly refreshing!  Good luck to you and your fam wherever that path leads!

  18. 1 hour ago, 4U2NV said:

    8 of the 12 listed above have taken an extra year. Congratulations to #1 Sergio and #2 Cheaney who are proving that you don’t need the extra year in order to excell! They will both be “True Freshmen” next year. 

    Interesting tidbit I learned about this subject from my daughter.  We were watching the Finals on Fox Sports Indiana, and the 120 lbs group comes up.  And my daughter, who is a freshman says "Oh cool!  There's Kysen!  He was in my Spanish class.  Dad did you know that he and I have the same exact birthday?"

    I reply "Oh cool, the same date?" And she responds "No, dad...the exact same day.  Like the same year.  Not the same hospital though."

    So we had a choice when my daughter was entering kindergarten to either have her be one of the youngest or one of the oldest in her class, and we choose the latter.  Obviously, since Kysen is a sophomore placer, he was in the former group and could "naturally" be a freshman right now like my daughter.  But he's a 2X state placer, which is commendable due to the whole "Greyshirt / Redshirt" idea.

    The funny thing was my son, who is a wrestler in 7th grade, immediately piped in with "Well, clearly Kysen's parents didn't want him to be any good in wrestling."  

  19. 3 hours ago, MackG said:

    Cheaney Schoeff

    I second this.  Cheaney is going to make some noise.  A lot of noise.  

    It wasn't fun at the time, but my 7th grade son got the "pleasure" of having his 3 man workout group often be him (a beginner), Logan Miller, and Cheaney.  Obviously, he couldn't ask for better partners and he got WAY better...but got way better by having his face smashed into the mat repeatedly.  LOL.  

    It was not fun then but was pretty cool for him now watching Logan do his thing this year, and Cheaney will do the same next year.  

  20. Dorian is freaky athletic.  So strong and such great hips and feet...which I know well from football.  So I knew he'd do good.

    In fact, I thought he would win a state championship...NEXT year.  Prior to the season I thought he might surprise and be able to advance to the semistate based on his strength and athleticism.  Total surprise this year with his very limited experience!  Awesome job by him, the coaches, and his teammates!  

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