indypharmd

Having spent a bit more time in Iowa over the past few months, I've spoken to quite a few other UI athlete's parents about how Iowa HS sports offered and believe there's some interesting tidbits that Indiana may wish to ponder. 

1. Schools let athletes compete in more than one sport in a season.

2. Track and baseball are not in the same season.

3. There are four sport athletes (and a few 5 sport athletes) given #1 & #2 above.

4. Not every team or individual makes the post season, decreasing number of tournament weekends.

5. They play state final games and wrestle state finals series during the week due to multiple class structure.

My kid wanted to play MS basketball but was told by school admins he had to choose btwn wrestling or basketball and wouldn't be allowed to do both. Choice made for him.

During late elementary years, he really liked baseball. Could bang them over the fence before anyone else in Little League, but daddy ball politics soured that really quickly. Started wrestling GR/FR during "baseball season" and a few years later placed at Fargo...

Do think that multiple sport participation can help combat burnout for athletes later in HS - often different friend/teammate circles, pressures/expectations are different, etc. 

However, if the kid desires to get to an elite level with aspirations of making it to college to compete, then extra time, practices and sacrifices have to be made to reach that dream. In Division 1, football offers 85 full "headcount" scholarships and basketball has 13; then all the rest of the sports have equivalency scholarships: wrestling 9.9, baseball 11.7, etc. So, if the goal is to go on a ride to college, play the numbers math -- baseball is not it if you're not a pitcher or Babe Ruth...

My kid was lucky he had a choice whether to play football or wrestle collegiately in the B1G, but the wrestling training in the "off season" is what prepared him to be able to make that choice and specifically with the training that Chad Red (C-Red) provided which is so much more than what is only on the mat...

So rather than pressure kids that have dreams to wrestle after HS to play baseball, run CC/track, etc., help them find a way to train and travel to get those opportunities presented to them through their body of work. 

When speaking to parents with young kids, I often suggest 1 team sport and 1 individual sport to narrow down to as they get closer to middle school which usually works except for baseball where the pressure is for year around training and travel teams. (There's a good reason DSG and other companies are heavy promoters of youth sports... hahaha...) The intense schedules of basketball travel & baseball travel are atrocious... At least w/ wrestling off season tournaments, you get to choose whether or not to go and it doesn't impact the team, etc.

So, circling back around to the divisions question... How's this sound?

1. Make 2 divisions,
2. Eliminate sectionals
3. Must qualify for a regional and add wrestlebacks (maybe throw a "true second" round in for seeding purposes and extra drama) & advance 3 to state
4. Run state over multiple days w/ wrestlebacks but no true second round for state finals

Read the WANE-TV article... The combination of methamphetamine, cocaine and two firearms with one being discharged in a school is really shocking. I suppose along with metal detectors, there will need to be narcotic sniffing canines to pair with the technology?

Very interesting twists on this thread...

Interesting take by some posters criticizing some wrestlers and their parents for making decisions to compete this season vs. not due to injuries...

A few thoughts...

• these athletes only get 4 years to compete in HS for the sport they've trained in since most were 4 years old. To give up a season when a physician says it's your choice, it's not surprising most chose to continue competing... There's no medical red shirt in high school sports. 
• Guys like Preston Haines who missed a season that he'd likely have been the state champ, know what it feels like to miss out, so no surprise he wanted to continue...
• Parker Reynolds defied statistics with his recovery, read Gregg Doyel's IndyStar article for info there...
• Guys like Reynolds, Brewer, Haines did all they could to compete to help the team win the title this year and didn't want to let their teammates and coaches down. Additionally for what it is worth, Brewer wrestled lights out at Evansville and you could tell that his lower extremity issue wasn't affecting him as much on that Saturday as it was at state...

So, if a poster wants to opine about the rule, i get it. Casting shade at athletes from certain schools to further your gripe is probably not necessary at all and makes issues personal imo... 

3 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

2015-2016 year was the start, at the time you had Big Group of kids going to Contenders & Red Cobra, I’m going to say (30) i have a picture if I can find it just from Contenders that was feeding Danville, Avon, Brownsburg, Plainfield, Cascade, Center Grove, Ben Davis, Tri West, Monrovia . 
 

That was the tip of Giant Iceburg that’s gonna hit Indiana Wrestling .
 

2018-Present you got over 70-80 high schoolers that come out of these Academies . Elementary & Middle Schools Biys & Girls 150+ training at 2 locations for Contenders & Red Cobra daily . You think it’s bad now , wait till those 150+ feed into schools with a wrestling IQ off the chart in the coming years . Mooresville is gonna get better and tougher . Schools is going to even more nastier than they are now . 
For those that don’t believe me just look at ISWA Triple Crowns, State Champions, #’s these Academies are pulling in . Going to be a Wrestler Fan Dream going to this Regional in a few years . It already is with the talent . You heard it first Indiana ! THEIR COMING ! 

@TeamGarcia tells the story... Contenders started in Plainfield and moved to Brownsburg a few years ago... Red Cobra came over to the west side in Avon about 9-10 years ago and they've both had staying power over the decade. On any given Tuesday night in the off season, it's a literal Who's Who in Chad and Roy's Red Cobra dojo... 

I imagine the southside training ops have picked up with the addition of the second location for Contenders, so the Mooresville Regional meat grinder will continue to get worse and worse and then have it capped off with the EVSS with Invicta & MCWC throwing in their best. 

The other interesting element in the rise of the regional academies has been the additional training opportunities in the olympic styles and the success in them by Indiana wrestlers when competing nationally. 

Also, mucho respect to Center Grove, Crown Point and Brownsburg for continuing to push the envelope with wrestling schedules that include the toughest tournaments like IronMan, Brecksville, The Carnahan, IHSWCA 4A Team State and maybe Cheesehead in the future - the level of competition left no one's record unscathed this season. Maybe we will have to have asterisked records for in-state vs. out-of-state W/L numbers in the future - esp for announcers on the state finals broadcasts...!

This needs broken down for the 5th semi-state -- ie, Mooresville Regional...

40 minutes ago, MattM said:

Five of the Top 7 are in Evansville SS.  With only 4 individual spots for the taking as usual managing to get wrestlers out of there, especially not in 4th, is a battle in itself with those squads taking up several spots (almost 60% this year). 

If anyone kept listening to the broadcast I review with Snyder, he said it pretty well - Avon, Brownsburg and Center Grove all in the same dang gum regional. That's nuts that 3 of the top 5 placing teams beat the snot of each other for three weekends - brutal!

Congrats to Snyder and the Brownsburg crew - never stopped believing... 

Jake Hockaday is the new Iceman. Stone Cold killer.

Watched the finals today from Iowa City with my Hawk as he was cheering on his buddies. Great culture of wrestling for the purple dogs.

Heard roads are bad traveling through Indy and Bloomington 

wish there were wrestlebacks for rd 2

Maurer Coughlin

Red Cobra

RWA/Bulldog Premiere (Am I allowed to group them... hahaha)

Contenders

.

.

.

CIA

Outlaws when Bailey ran it

The Fort

It's definitely been the ones at the top that have had the staying power over the last decade or so... Kids start at 5-6 years, train with others and then it evolves into which school district is everyone headed to...? Cathedral had runs when CIA/Outlaws were in it's prime. Having staying power at a HS coaching staff with the feeder academies around you are definitely a plus. There's a lot to be said for a high school program to not have to run a club year around and refer kids to the academies - a win-win for everyone except for the wallets of families, but you get what you pay for...

Having seen what happens collegiately now with the transfer portal, NIL, etc., it is likely that there will be continued trickle down to the prep levels. 

On the flip side, imagine what Chesterton might have been like had everyone "stayed home" the previous 6-8 years...?

For those of you questioning BB, there have been a few families that have transitioned in middle school from school districts that border BB's - but like another poster mentioned, the schools in Brownsburg have been considerably better than the surrounding schools in academic/educational ratings - with quite a few success stores in the classroom following a change in enrollment. Additionally,  I can show pictures of old BB club days with many of the recent and current hammers were little tykes at club practice 10-12 years ago, in the pre-Snyder days too... 

Another poster had a comment about affluence and being a factor... If that were the case, Carmel/Zionsville and now Westfield/Fishers/HSE should be perennial powers, iykwim... In the post-pandemic economy, it definitely will be interesting to see how future shifts will impact HS sports...

With the travel rules relaxed, this type of list may need an asterisk... Still an accomplishment for those wrestlers but not quite the same...

little biased here, but Leighton Jones's sophomore run through sectionals, regionals, SS  & state as a HWT to lose in OT to senior Reeve Muncie in the semis was pretty wild. If only two of those takedowns that ended outside of the circle had been inside & happened in regulation...

and 3 of the top 4 in the Mooresville Semi State, er, Regional...

A tournament that brings in some of the top Illinois, Michigan and Ohio teams has to be on top - before the travel rules change and CP inviting out of state teams to the carnahan, the Al Smith probably had to be the top. 

Being able to compete against top shelf teams from the neighboring (and more populous states of MI, OH, & IL) is now a game changer for those teams that engage in the competition, imho...

Having been around eastern Iowa on weekends this fall, i've gotten to know quite a few other Hawk freshman parents that are dialed into the football and wrestling scenes. I really like how Iowa does their state tournaments -- esp in football. They have class football (including 8 man) and only 16 teams make the tournament based upon RPI which then dictates seeding. Needless to say, the 6A 1st round debacle of BD vs. Brownsburg wouldn't have happened in that type of format. 

It's also been real interesting to hear their comments on single class wrestling and how brutal of a tournament that is. I've showed them pictures of the finals and how great a show it is (which they agreed was pretty nice.)

Good luck to the Clark brothers as they have shot at being double state champs - pretty tough to do in 6A football and in a single class wrestling state series...

So good to see that Parker Reynolds is making a strong recovery after a medical condition almost sidelined his athletic career. Really respect the dedication and mental resolve he's shown to get back to a point where he can hope to fulfill some of his dreams. (And kudos to CRed helping him get there...)

Happy IHSAA 1st day of wrestling! 

1 hour ago, aoberlin said:

We are well aware that we have work to do and TBH we need to get on the bandwagon and start recruiting and getting all the good kids to the same school to start creating powerhouses. But as of right now we aren’t doing that. No matter if you think this statement is true or not there is much more that goes into it all and personally I find it rude. But hey it’s the internet say what you want. Don’t worry though we always know who makes what statements.

 

Also it is “too bad” and not “two bad”.

 

FIFY... tried typing on the mobile digital digital device...

A little salty there NE Indiana dude? 

Would recommend doing a bit of research before making accusations such as yours - I've occasionally heard that sarcasm being defined as protest of the weak... 

But for purposes of debating your premise, I would suggest using the allusion to the movie, A Field of Dreams... That has a bit more to do with the effect than your assertion...

There are kids that will never make the varsity lineups at places like CP and BB that would be SQ at other locales. I have seen parallels in other sports at former MIC schools, too. I truly get the difficulty that programs have in rural areas even fielding teams anymore (I graduated from one that can barely field a football team now after winning a Class A title ~20 years ago)

But the chaos that exists due to certain regions being powerful over different eras begs the question on whether there is value in spacing out the talent in the current format or altering the format to allow very good wrestlers to advance (wrestling backs).

Too bad a program can't enter an additional roster and send them through a different semi state... No longer have a dog in the fight (pun intended), but I bet the 2's from Brownsburg would score high enough to probably win the FWSS as a team...

Just too bad that the tournament is not seeded like the NCAA tournament - Give CP, Brownsburg, CG & ? the #1 seeds and send them to the four corners and so on.... There were quite a few wt classes last year out of EVSS that was 3 or 4/4 Moorseville Regional placers for SQ...

On 4/7/2023 at 9:53 PM, buttler73 said:

I think the weights are weird already. I understand there are not 100  pounders everywhere. or 97 pounders but they do exist we should definitely have a smaller weight than 106. I think that would help on kids that are not making that 106 weight to at least wrestle and be competitive.  Also the weight Shifting around instead of adding another weight class or 2 just pushes the inevitable off. There needs to be more weight Classes!

100,106,113,120,126,132,138,145,152,160,170,182,195,215,240,285,285+...No alpha weight at Super Heavy.

Some of the belly aching

* it takes too long to get through a meet. 

but really we have kids that are not wrestling at higher and lower weights. I understand that this hurts smaller schools that don't have as many kids to fill spots.

But in order to, "GROW" our sport we need to still make  accessible to everyone trying to play/compete. and Kids in this day and age come in all sorts of sizes.

Just my opinion.

 

I've always wondered how many more football players might wrestle if there were more classes between 175-310...? If you had weight classes where another linebacker, edge rusher, tight end or fullback could fit in, you never know how much that would help both sports... 

For years, I had to hear how some kid had to wrestle up a weight class and give up 5-7 pounds when light heavys often give up a higher percentage difference and no one blinks... 

Seems to be a lot of things are done to increase inclusivity nowadays, so why not add back in a 97 and 285+? 

amazing what he was able to do this year feeling as lousy as he did...

4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

To keep this thread alive, what are good restaurants we need to hit up while in the Crescent City? This will be my first time on the banks of the Ohio river and need to keep my figure.

Will be interesting how the Ford Center staff will handle shaking down everyone at the gate, can't wait to see some Region Rats go off as they get frisked and told they can't bring in a pack of gum even... might be worth the $25 Ford Center box of popcorn to watch...

Hopefully the Ford Center staff lightens up, they open more entry points and modify the outrageous concession prices. After the EvSS this year, made a deal with myself that was the last time visiting Evansville... I imagine the live stream prices will be even higher than the price of a Ford Center hotdog and Coke, but at least only have to pay that once...

On a parallel note, did IHSAA agree to move the southwestern semi state out of Evansville for 2023? Bloomington would be perfect, btw...

14 hours ago, jonah7474 said:

I don’t know Wagner, but I know Vaughn… totally agree… he was a bad, bad, man on the mat… off the mat… one of the best there is.

You talking about Tony Vaughn of Ft Wayne Snider? Man, I had to wrestle him in regionals back in the day. He was a beast!

8 hours ago, Play Wrestler said:

You love using outliers to try and prove a point and it’s not a good way to persuade people.
 

 

And add one other... Leighton Jones (IFCA OL of the Year)

28 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

My argument would be, it hasn't increased because of our State tournament but despite it. It has gotten better because of the academies and the crazy people like us having our kids be super specialized in a sport at a very young age. Not sure it is the healthiest thing. Half these kids at the youth tournaments have never even been to the High School State finals. So... maybe it is parents pushing even harder at a young age to reach that goal. The real question is. Is it what is best for the kids and the sport?

A few questions...:

1. What's the problem statement?

2. What's the hypothesis?

3. How will a "change" potentially solve the problem?

4. How will success be measured?

I'd also surmise that a little more data aggregation and analysis would be necessary to come to a decision point that  "problems" exist and need to be addressed. Additionally, a further definition of what the goal of the IHSAA Championship actually is would help further help define courses of action or inaction...

For example, is the goal to identify a champion or is it crown a champion and maximize gate/ticket sales or is it to have parity and/or equity or is it TBD?

The Team State provided by the IHSWCA has done quite a bit to provide better equity in a team race already. So, would a solution for a classed individual tournament lie with a group outside of IHSAA? 

I think these type questions would help answer what an alternative would look like and potential impacts.

8 hours ago, Mattyb said:

Brownsburg loses Jones next year but adds three cadet state champs to the line up in Gibbs, Rojas and Fugate. 

looking good in the burg!

1 hour ago, Galagore said:

 

Are the smaller enrollment schools upset about competing against these schools in football, basketball, etc?

If you would read the post that may reply was in response to, it was discussing not applying success factors to individual sports but going straight enrollment... I have heard complaints when Cathedral and Roncalli were dropped previously back to the enrollment class or the one above...

The IHSWCA team state has definitely become more equitable with the addition of the 4A class vs having just 3...