Westforkwhite

4 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Alex Dolly wasn't the same level as Hughes 

I've been to multiple tournaments during Hughes time in HS where he didnt give up a single takedown. He was facing MI state champs and IL and OH placers, so he was at a high level on his feet in HS. Albeit not as good on the feet as Maurer as Y2 and others have pointed out. That said the separation isnt as great on the feet as the top game strongly favors Hughes. As a true freshman in the MSU room to perform as well as he did on top against the best conference in the country showed how truly elite his top game was. Maurer didnt have the neutral skills to make him standout immediately at the next level, like a Desanto, so i think that gives Hughes a greater degree of skill separation. Does that translate into a victory for Hughes? Maybe

http://m.fox19.com/story/37607075/transgender-teen-outed-by-wrestling-coach-mom-says

It doesn't sound like the coach really outed him as his transition has occurred in the last 3 years. I doubt kids will forget that soon. That said it still doesn't sound like the situation was handled well.

Thoughts?

Robinson was outstanding and has the athleticism edge, but i could see 11th grade Parris pulling that one out. 

I would see a Parris vs. Parris final.

26 minutes ago, Brian said:

I'm not commenting on Michigan's program quality in football.  I'm only saying that, at worst, Mason is a star at Ball State, at best a lower-tier Big 10 (think IU) player.

You are describing the same level, BSU has beaten IU in football so many times IU wont schedule them now. IU isnt even on par with the upper tier MAC teams. Just like their wrestling program.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/wrestling/article/2018-02-17/college-wrestling-army-stuns-navy-claim-star-annapolis

Huge win for Harvey wins Army the dual against Navy.

The front headlock should have been stalemated after 8-10 seconds max when neither wrestler was improving position. That would have left 10-14 seconds for the match to still be decided by the wrestlers. Unfortunately the official didn't call the stalemate and then compounded his mistake by making a more egregious one. Every year this guy makes numerous head scratching calls.

53 minutes ago, 1prouddad said:

Yep Just Boarman and Lee

Ross and Dickens lost by fall, Boots and Fitts by decision. 

Fitts looked solid in the loss. He's going to be a tough out next year.

10 hours ago, wildcats2020 said:

how close would the match be?

Not very. World and Olympic champ mops up Parris. 

8 AM

I have lower level suite tickets available for those interested.

Send me a PM for details.

59 minutes ago, jetwrestling said:

I think if it is a middle weight, that argument goes away. There were multiple jv kids at every event we went to from 126-160. Not so much at upper and lower end weights. 

To your point, i wouldn't be opposed to moving 113 up a bit to mimic the gap from the prior weight classes. 103 - 112 is 9 pounds. Giving you 106 - 115 - 122 - 128 - 133 - 138 - 143 - 148 - 153 - 160 - 172 - 187 - 210 - Hwt. I think this would help FF numbers a bit by giving us an additional middle weight. 

1 hour ago, Rookies03 said:

I dont agree with this... an upper classmen can do a lot to put on healthy weight.  Lift weights, eat healthy, etc.  Raising 106 to 110-115 is a kid only adding 4-9 lbs.  

Now a freshman or even young sophomore might have trouble especially if they havent gone through puberty yet.  However you could always let that kid only wrestle kids who are comparable in size.  You cant tell me that a 95 lb pre-puberty freshman wrestling a kid who cut from 110-115 to 106 isnt going to be discouraging.

HS kids cant put on more than 15 lbs of muscle in an offseason(with a few genetic exceptions) and most would be lucky to put on 10. Its hard to argue that weight gains beyond 10 lbs are "healthy weight" gains. I would suggest that near all 20+ lbs weight gains are increasing your fat ratio.

12 minutes ago, Galagore said:

I know a state champion from Michigan. His name is Louis. One day I asked him, "Lou, what happens if someone says you are only a state champion of a classed state?" His reply was pretty much gold. He replied, "I would say, what about you? Are you a state champion?" That's probably how most of them feel about it.

This has always been a bad argument against class. On the flip side there is an added bonus to being "the" state champ. Not meaningful enough to be a strong argument against class, in my opinion.

7 hours ago, base said:

I think one of the biggest hurdles for the Fort Wayne vicinity is that (if I understand correctly) they do not offer wrestling as a middle school sport.  That would greatly limit the youth kids as it's the largest population center in that area.

You are so right.

FWCS doesn't offer wrestling at their middle schools, hasn't for 10+ years. Area schools still do but FWCS has the bulk of the student population. FWCS had lots of state champs for years, now only a rare few place.

5 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im not touching it.  But WestForkWhite was ripping Heavies and 220s the other day,  I wonder what his opinion on  the 106 and 113 with the  high percentage of forfeits.

Hard to argue forfeits are higher and have been at those two weights. My point was relating to quality and depth (1-50). A wrestler can gain his way to 220 or Hwt, its not restricted to a height range. We've had 6'7" Hwts and 5'5" Hwts, you cant be much taller than 5'5"(and that would entail ultra thin body types only) and make either 106 or 113. Not many other sports provide kids under 120 lbs with opportunities to excel. Clearly 220s and Hwts are getting those opportunities on the football field and elsewhere. We lose a lot of kids who end up as middle weights when they don't have a chance to compete(ie DTaylor, Steiber, or Spencer Lee). I'm all in favor of cutting a weight to add a middle weight back, but 195-285 should be the area we cut.

3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Indiana is closer to Ohio than the other two states in terms of wrestling quality and depth. Our state finals with two classes would be very competitive. Take a look at some of the potential match-ups in a two classed state. 

In a 2 class system, i think you are totally correct. Ive never thought the dilution of talent was a very good argument against that format. The fears of many are that IHSAA may see fit to create 4 or 5 classes as they dont view wrestling differently than other sports. I think the dilution argument picks up momentum as it relates to a 4-6 class system.

4 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

See my explanation on how bigger schools with fans not advancing is the reason attendance fell.     But,  using basketball fan attendance as a comparison is comparing  apples to oranges.  I think very likely, you would see an upswing in attendance if you classed wrestling.

There has not been any evidence presented on this site that would support your expected outcome. Is there an apples to apples comparison that would suggest a rise in attendance by classing? Minus this you are making assumptions that would best be described as magical thinking.

1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

See my explanation on how bigger schools with fans not advancing is the reason attendance fell.     But,  using basketball fan attendance as a comparison is comparing  apples to oranges.  I think very likely, you would see an upswing in attendance if you classed wrestling.

You are right bball and wrestling arent the same, especially in Indiana. For us to be on a near level playing field as it relates to attendence is huge. I think you are discounting tge significance of that. There is no way we approach 10k attendance for any one class, in a 2 or 3 class system. To assume that we could increase attendance or even maintain  by classing isnt supported by evidence.

1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im always surprised by this data and the precipitous drop off.    I just wonder if some stat manipulation.

I did a little research, and saw an article on the Indiana State Finals had there lowest attendance in the two sessions in 2012 which was 22,820.    So if I understand correctly the finals used to be held at Hinkle on Butler campus.   It only held 10,000 people at the time.   So the finals games (granted 4 games) in 2012 worst attendance in class era is still 220% or 12, 280 higher than the best possible attendance in whatever year you pick.   Something doesn't add up.

Is this like the 1000 higher participation rate Indiana had in wrestling this year?  Still would like to see forfeit % compared to prior years.

 

 

 

There is no debate societal pressures were pushing down attendance pre class. But going to class didnt counter these pressures it only made it worse. Even the die hard class guys have to recognize that this would deplete the fan interest in our tournament.

Class wrestling has it's good arguments and points i have yet to seen reasonably disputed by any of the never class guys.This is a point however that goes to the no class movement.

8 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Couple questions.

1. Why in your opinion has class basketball not worked?
2. On that same note why are we not seeing as many people wanting to change the other sports such as volleyball, baseball, soccer, etc?
3. Why do you think Snyder has had more success in a handful of years at Brownsburg than 10ish at Mishawaka? Mishawaka has a far greater wrestling tradition than Brownsburg.
 

 

1) Attendance for the state series dropped by 40% the first year of class bball, with 3 times the number of games. Which meant kids were playing games in front of 1/5 of the fans they did just the prior year. The attendance numbers have dropped in most years since. I know fans aren't the most important thing, but they are a barometer of general interest in a sport and this interest translates to young athletes trying out the sport. We cant count on kids being exposed to wrestling on tv in the way college and pro bball flood our airways. The excitement of the finals in recent years has impacted more than a few youngsters. We have been consistently putting 10k plus fans in the bank for wrestling state, and these numbers wouldn't be sustained in a class system. Despite the roundball being the holiest of holies in IN, our single class tournament has greater attendance than most classes in basketball. How many sports get greater attendance than any class in football in Texas or Florida? Can you imagine another winter sport having higher attendence numbers than the KY bball finals? So to say that our tournament goes head to head in the same season as the grand daddy of Hoosier sports and has as many fans as the final session of basketball (and more than the all lower classes) is really special. We would lose that in a class system.

2) Volleyball classed a number of years ago, but to your point i haven't heard much talk of going back. You dont hear much talk about basketball going back anymore either, but interest has waned altogether and i fear wrestling would suffer the same consequence.

That is some great rankings right there! Fortunate distribution too.

6 hours ago, WOC said:

I really don't want to get into the class wrestling debate.  I don't think fairness applies here.  Life ain't always fair and that includes wrestling.  There are 14 weight classes, so there should be 14 state champions period.  My opinion has always been the same on this and I'm sure that won't be changed.

Participation won't increase much in my opinion by just adding another class or classes to our great sport.  I believe to increase participation is very difficult because the best way in my opinion is for a program, school or community to grow participation is for the coaches in that community to commit an extraordinary amount of voluntary time building a youth program from the ground.  In the communities that have such programs the participation is strong and programs thrive.  The unfortunate part is that in many communities, the coaches do not have that much time to commit to building a program from the ground. Maybe the best answer is for more of us to volunteer our time to help build youth programs in more communities across the state.

As far as college exposure, I can't speak for how college coaches feel about classed or not.

It truly takes extraordinary effort on the part of coaches, volunteers and parents to build programs. Coaches especially, a lot of them are putting full time hours into wrestling despite having full time jobs and families. We cant expect everyone to be willing to make that commitment. 

As far as the debate goes, I'd love to see the never class folks recognize that there are some good aspects to class that cant be dismissed. I also would like like the pro class folks to acknowledge that increasing participation and keeping numbers up is an unlikely outcome of class wrestling. 

We may never find complete agreement on the issue as a whole but we can agree on the sub points and that will help with the ability to implement meaningful changes to the sport in Indiana.

2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So we should let 1A wrestling die? Ohhh I know, they should just work harder.

Note wrestling participation is down across the country, even in our great single class state. What are we going to blame that on? 

So you are acknowledging that class systems aren't enough to maintain participation rates, i'm glad we agree.

The data doesn't support class wrestling as a participation savior. If having the great class system cant keep numbers up, maybe we should look at other ways to get kids out for wrestling.

3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

You can't answer my questions, that's fine because it would hurt your argument. I understand because you are the same as the others.

You're a fan, I don't care about you, I care about the health of the sport and the number of kids participating in the sport. If there is a good product on the mat people will come, they won't care about classes. 

Gable Steveson has won three world titles and is wrestling in a classed system right now.  How will he survive? Why is he even doing it? He probably is going to throw his medal in the trash with the other four classed medals he has. Such a great rebuttal because YOU think one kid would 

Feel free to tell me why Gable Steveson left a single class state to go wrestle in a classed state. I can't wait to hear this reasoning since only the top kids would want to wrestle in a single class state according to you.

I agree that as a college resume builder a class system is advantageous, but without wrestle backs i doubt we get full value as many coaches will still avoid our tournament. 

You lose me at participation however. NY had initial gains but has receded to below pre class numbers now. (As pointed out numerous times, we are at the mercy of data collection we know little about). The perception that class will significantly boost 1A overall numbers just doesnt make sense, and our 2A and 3A forfeit rates are better than the comparables. Where does focusing on 12% of the market make sense as strategie for growth. Small schools will still face the same problems they always have, classing wont change that.

1 hour ago, wrestleliferfan said:

We just started a thread on this earlier today. Great minds think alike. 

Indeed. I just wondered what people thought the greatest value to IN wrestling would be created by classing.

Is it fairness? Is it participation numbers? Additional exposure/recognition from Colleges? Or some other reason.