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Westforkwhite

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Everything posted by Westforkwhite

  1. Fitts looked solid in the loss. He's going to be a tough out next year.
  2. I have lower level suite tickets available for those interested. Send me a PM for details.
  3. To your point, i wouldn't be opposed to moving 113 up a bit to mimic the gap from the prior weight classes. 103 - 112 is 9 pounds. Giving you 106 - 115 - 122 - 128 - 133 - 138 - 143 - 148 - 153 - 160 - 172 - 187 - 210 - Hwt. I think this would help FF numbers a bit by giving us an additional middle weight.
  4. HS kids cant put on more than 15 lbs of muscle in an offseason(with a few genetic exceptions) and most would be lucky to put on 10. Its hard to argue that weight gains beyond 10 lbs are "healthy weight" gains. I would suggest that near all 20+ lbs weight gains are increasing your fat ratio.
  5. This has always been a bad argument against class. On the flip side there is an added bonus to being "the" state champ. Not meaningful enough to be a strong argument against class, in my opinion.
  6. You are so right. FWCS doesn't offer wrestling at their middle schools, hasn't for 10+ years. Area schools still do but FWCS has the bulk of the student population. FWCS had lots of state champs for years, now only a rare few place.
  7. Hard to argue forfeits are higher and have been at those two weights. My point was relating to quality and depth (1-50). A wrestler can gain his way to 220 or Hwt, its not restricted to a height range. We've had 6'7" Hwts and 5'5" Hwts, you cant be much taller than 5'5"(and that would entail ultra thin body types only) and make either 106 or 113. Not many other sports provide kids under 120 lbs with opportunities to excel. Clearly 220s and Hwts are getting those opportunities on the football field and elsewhere. We lose a lot of kids who end up as middle weights when they don't have a chance to compete(ie DTaylor, Steiber, or Spencer Lee). I'm all in favor of cutting a weight to add a middle weight back, but 195-285 should be the area we cut.
  8. In a 2 class system, i think you are totally correct. Ive never thought the dilution of talent was a very good argument against that format. The fears of many are that IHSAA may see fit to create 4 or 5 classes as they dont view wrestling differently than other sports. I think the dilution argument picks up momentum as it relates to a 4-6 class system.
  9. There has not been any evidence presented on this site that would support your expected outcome. Is there an apples to apples comparison that would suggest a rise in attendance by classing? Minus this you are making assumptions that would best be described as magical thinking.
  10. You are right bball and wrestling arent the same, especially in Indiana. For us to be on a near level playing field as it relates to attendence is huge. I think you are discounting tge significance of that. There is no way we approach 10k attendance for any one class, in a 2 or 3 class system. To assume that we could increase attendance or even maintain by classing isnt supported by evidence.
  11. There is no debate societal pressures were pushing down attendance pre class. But going to class didnt counter these pressures it only made it worse. Even the die hard class guys have to recognize that this would deplete the fan interest in our tournament. Class wrestling has it's good arguments and points i have yet to seen reasonably disputed by any of the never class guys.This is a point however that goes to the no class movement.
  12. 1) Attendance for the state series dropped by 40% the first year of class bball, with 3 times the number of games. Which meant kids were playing games in front of 1/5 of the fans they did just the prior year. The attendance numbers have dropped in most years since. I know fans aren't the most important thing, but they are a barometer of general interest in a sport and this interest translates to young athletes trying out the sport. We cant count on kids being exposed to wrestling on tv in the way college and pro bball flood our airways. The excitement of the finals in recent years has impacted more than a few youngsters. We have been consistently putting 10k plus fans in the bank for wrestling state, and these numbers wouldn't be sustained in a class system. Despite the roundball being the holiest of holies in IN, our single class tournament has greater attendance than most classes in basketball. How many sports get greater attendance than any class in football in Texas or Florida? Can you imagine another winter sport having higher attendence numbers than the KY bball finals? So to say that our tournament goes head to head in the same season as the grand daddy of Hoosier sports and has as many fans as the final session of basketball (and more than the all lower classes) is really special. We would lose that in a class system. 2) Volleyball classed a number of years ago, but to your point i haven't heard much talk of going back. You dont hear much talk about basketball going back anymore either, but interest has waned altogether and i fear wrestling would suffer the same consequence.
  13. That is some great rankings right there! Fortunate distribution too.
  14. It truly takes extraordinary effort on the part of coaches, volunteers and parents to build programs. Coaches especially, a lot of them are putting full time hours into wrestling despite having full time jobs and families. We cant expect everyone to be willing to make that commitment. As far as the debate goes, I'd love to see the never class folks recognize that there are some good aspects to class that cant be dismissed. I also would like like the pro class folks to acknowledge that increasing participation and keeping numbers up is an unlikely outcome of class wrestling. We may never find complete agreement on the issue as a whole but we can agree on the sub points and that will help with the ability to implement meaningful changes to the sport in Indiana.
  15. So you are acknowledging that class systems aren't enough to maintain participation rates, i'm glad we agree. The data doesn't support class wrestling as a participation savior. If having the great class system cant keep numbers up, maybe we should look at other ways to get kids out for wrestling.
  16. I agree that as a college resume builder a class system is advantageous, but without wrestle backs i doubt we get full value as many coaches will still avoid our tournament. You lose me at participation however. NY had initial gains but has receded to below pre class numbers now. (As pointed out numerous times, we are at the mercy of data collection we know little about). The perception that class will significantly boost 1A overall numbers just doesnt make sense, and our 2A and 3A forfeit rates are better than the comparables. Where does focusing on 12% of the market make sense as strategie for growth. Small schools will still face the same problems they always have, classing wont change that.
  17. Indeed. I just wondered what people thought the greatest value to IN wrestling would be created by classing. Is it fairness? Is it participation numbers? Additional exposure/recognition from Colleges? Or some other reason.
  18. If class wrestling were implented in Indiana, what outcomes do you anticipate?
  19. Does year round wrestling hurt the sport? You don't become a more skilled wrestler playing other sports, so in that sense kids have far more developed skill sets because of year round wrestling. But as others have mentioned it has created greater separation at our top level, and potentially created a barrier of entry for kids new to the sport. Does that mean we impede the progress of our elite kids or programs for the betterment of the masses? (exemplified in the bias against V2 teams) I see plusses and minuses, but it is here to stay. I prefer to see the specialization wait until MS or older, but i know that all circumstances arent the same, and it may well be the best thing for some younger kids. The one thing i like about year round wrestling is that it keeps the kids active and involved. Now i love Indiana, but we have a lot of depressed communities both economically and culturally. There isnt a whole lot else for kids to do besides partying. But wrestling year round keeps them engaged and focused. Kids are more likely to stay on a successful path if they are involved in something. If that something isnt another sport or constructive activity, then wrestling in those other 3 seasons is the answer.
  20. Pokorney and McWilliams are exceptional and outstanding wrestlers and Parris is otherworldly, but none of that speaks to depth. Ault is a guy ive been impressed by and others too, so i certainly recognize there is talent and quality wrestling at hwt. I just don't see it with regularity i see at mid and low weights particularly when you get below the SS qualifier level. To your last point, that is a shame. When two kids put forth that kind of effort and performance it deserves to be recognized, no matter when it happens or at what weight. So i cant really refute that aspect. I want our best kids to be celebrated regardless of weight class, and if random draw can help accomplish that with limited drawbacks i see value.
  21. All good points. I certainly agree bigger kids are in greater demand for other sports and consequently more big guys do play other sports. But the doesnt translate to greater wrestling skills it just means less mat time while you play that other sport. There is also no questioning the greatness of our elite bigs, they are superb. I just dont believe they are reflective of overall quality. Sorry GrecoCoach for hijacking your thread.
  22. No, and sorry i have taken a negative turn here. There are multiple big guys i think are exceptional wrestlers but i think the overall quality could be a lot better. I believe getting better starts with greater expectations and as long as we are willing to make excuses for the quality i dont see there being much that changes. I think Hwt wrestling can absolutely be great in this state, and i want us to get to a place where fans want to stay to see the hwts, and wouldnt dream of missing one minute of action. But thats not where were at. We can blame fans for their lack of interest or we can work to create interest and develop a more interesting product.
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