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Westforkwhite

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  1. Westforkwhite
    I believe i misspoke, Hall appears to have suffered a loss or two as a freshman, it was only 3 years undefeated. So really only 2 guys in the group but many years we don't have any. Josh Alber was one a couple years ago, but he wasn't on the same level nationally as CJ and Suriano. This is really a great class for IN and a very good one nationally. There are a couple national guys (like Hall) who could be competing for D1 titles right out of the box, and multiple kids from IN that are going to shine at the Div. 1, 2, 3 level, and bring home titles before they hang them up.
  2. Westforkwhite
    http://highschoolsports.nj.com/news/article/7169458421178736333/nick-suriano-makes-history-wins-fourth-state-title/ There have been 3 top tier (in the stratosphere) guys go undefeated for 4 titles in HS this year. All 3 are in the top 5 pound for pound rankings. Really impressive stuff.
  3. Westforkwhite
    I thought so too. (Thanks for posting the details, I was having trouble pasting it for some reason)
  4. Westforkwhite
    Agreed for Hall and MN, I was making reference to Storely and the others from SD and AL.
  5. Westforkwhite
    I believe he did. Other 6 timers: Kirk Wallman - SD Michael Sutton - AL Brandon Womack - AL I think we can go out on a limb and say that none of these guys wrestled the type of competition that Tsirtsis's, Red, or even Ellis faced. (they did beat who was in front of them 6 times, so it's incredible impressive)
  6. Westforkwhite
    I remember Lincoln McIlravy won 5 in SD. When they announced it at the Big Tens we wondered if he'd been held back and how he got a 5th year. (found out later he won his first as an 8th grader)
  7. Westforkwhite
    Ran across this on a PA forum, but it may be worth looking into for those who would like to wrestle in college and don't have any offers at the moment http://forums.pa-wrestling.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7197&title=125-pound-wrestling-scholarship
  8. Westforkwhite
    This is a great venue to "show them off", and it looks like you are putting together a really good team that will represent Indiana well. I appreciate (sure I'm not the only one) your effort to get our Indiana kids to opportunity to shine.
  9. Westforkwhite
    I'm not pro-class or anti-class, so I'm not "one of them" as you refer. I'm simply pointing to a couple flaws in the argument as it relates to fairness in qualifiers and forfeits. If the NY #s show a decent bump in participation after the implementation of class wrestling and they've maintained that over the 10 year span since, then the class argument will be lock tight. Participation rates are dropping nationwide (in both single and multi class systems) so classing hasn't been sufficient to maintain prior levels of participation. which suggests there is a lot more at play than a classed system. That said if its had a demonstratable effect in NY then its going to be hard to make a logically argument against it. But comparing systems that have been classed for 20-30 (OH over 40) years and not having any pre-class data gives us an incomplete picture.
  10. Westforkwhite
    Yes they are equal as it relates to participation at state. More kids and more wrestlers should equate to more kids being successful, but this success is in line with the student population. By your logic, the wrestlers who represent 11% of the student population should have the same rate of success as the wrestlers who represent 65% of the student population in the state. But if each class got a third of the qualifiers and placers then that would not be an equitable system. If the argument for class wrestling is that it will increase participation rates, you can't then choose to ignore the non-varsity participants as it relates to qualifiers and placers. They are participants as well and discounting them doesn't give you accurate take on fairness.
  11. Westforkwhite
    Other states had one more forfeit at the 3A level, but they had less forfeits at the 1A level. The net was essentially a wash.
  12. Westforkwhite
    I would argue that for any prospective wrestler, no matter what size school they are attending, the chances are about equal. A kid at a big school has to get through 2-3 wrestlers at his weight just to make varsity. At a 1A school (with only a few exceptions) a kid who has never wrestled can walk right on and get a varsity spot. So should that kid have an equal chance of making state as the kid that beat out 3 kids for the spot? I will concede the class argument has a great deal more merit when it relates to placers. 1A's at a rate of less than half the student populations, that doesn't suggest that their getting a completely fair shake. (but I still say the qualifier data suggests fairness) There are many very committed coaches at small schools, and they put obscene amounts of time into it, yet many of them still struggle to field full teams. Does class wrestling get them a full roster? (maybe it will help, but we don't have any real numbers on NY which is the only state which has recently changed from single to multi-class) It would be interesting to see what happened with not only small schools but the participation rates statewide. What has happened in the ten years since implementation? (are numbers up or down) This would be the closest to an apples to apples comparison as we could get and would give us the short-term and long term (10 year) perspective on how the changes have affected HS wrestling in the state.
  13. Westforkwhite
    Good post. As long as it was consistently applied (1st, 2nd & 3rd periods) I think it could be great thing. Often times the refs will ignore inaction on the part of one or both wrestling periods 1 & 2 and then suddenly gets compelled to make 2 calls in a matter of seconds in the closing seconds of the match. If it's stalling in the last 30 seconds of the match, it needs to be called in the 1st and 2nd the same way.
  14. Westforkwhite
    Saying all 3000 wrestlers have the same shot ignores all those other kids in the room, and the total number of students they represent. 14 wrestlers out of 400 students, means that each wrestler represents 28.5 students at his school. Whereas 14 wrestlers from a school with 3000 kids, means that kid is representing 214.2 students. So should someone that represents nearly 10 times the student population as the other wrestler have more success on average? Would it be fair if it worked out otherwise?
  15. Westforkwhite
    Since we started with qualifiers, I was keeping with the theme. What are the placing numbers by class? (I'm sure someone has posted I didn't see them)
  16. Westforkwhite
    X-Country is great for cardio and slow twitch muscle conditioning, but it is a far different animal from the type of endurance needed in wrestling. If you did a lot of lifting in the summer and then run X-country there is a good chance you'll lose all the gains you made in a effort to run 7-9 miles a day. Wrestling being an explosion sport, makes track (sprints) a lot better suited to wrestling (but it comes at the same time as the bulk of the off-season stuff) Soccer, gymnastics, swimming would be up towards to the top of the list but the seasons (expect for soccer) aren't very conducive for wrestlers.
  17. Westforkwhite
    I have never disagreed once that there are advantages to being a large school (for the myriad of reasons discussed ad nauseam) That said the numbers, reflect that per capita and per wrestler in the room, our 1A schools are being fairly represented at state. (9% to 11%) and 3A gets 62% of the qualifiers out of 66% of the student population and wrestlers. Yes size it does matter, but when the numbers show representation rates are in line with student populations and wrestlers, then it's hard for me to see that the system isn't fair. (in respect to qualifiers)
  18. Westforkwhite
    Oh so a coach can't substitute one wrestler for another? Couldn't one wrestler who began as JV beat out the varsity wrestler later on.
  19. Westforkwhite
    The 11% may put 27% of the participants into sectionals, but they still only represent 11% of the student body or wrestlers. The 39% of sectional participants represent 2/3 of the student body and wrestlers in the state, so again I'm struggling to see how this isn't a fair representation of each wrestling class. Based on your logic, we should expect a bball team with 5 players to win as many games (on average) as a team with 12-15, as they can only play 5 at a time. (sure it could happen, but it won't on average) To accurately measure fairness of state finals participation you must factor the student populations and the number of wrestlers in the programs, you can't simply count the number of sectional participants. This would allow you to assess the probability that any high school wrestler (JV or Varsity) has of making the state tournament.
  20. Westforkwhite
    The fairness argument as it relates to state qualifiers is hollow at best. How is it fair that 11% of the wrestlers/student body should make up 33% of the state qualifiers? Sure there are good arguments for class wrestling (I agree big schools do have an advantage) I just haven't been convinced this is the solution to any of what ails Indiana wrestling as a whole. Every classed state that Y2 has provided statistics for also has rising forfeit rates, so it just doesn't suggest that this will have any major effect. (You may interpret that differently) We are actually doing better on forfeits with the 2/3 majority of our total student population than the classed states around us. (by 1 whole forfeit) So we're talking about modifying our existing system to accomodate 11% of the student body, at the expense of the 2/3 majority.
  21. Westforkwhite
    You can't have your cake and eat it too. LOL On one side you use the number of kids in the room and the total number of boys to choose from as a factor that limits fairness and provides an express advantage to large schools (hard to argue there) But on the flip side when it comes to evaluating the state results you are willing to discount the fact that the coach gets to choose from 50+ kids to put the best 14 out there. It's difficult for me to see how a 1A team (which may have a 1/10 of the wrestlers and student population) should get the same number of kids qualifying at state as a 3A school, and you could make the argument that would be horribly unfair if it did turn out that way.
  22. Westforkwhite
    The 1A schools represent 11% of the total student population, and likely near that same percentage of wrestlers (#'s in the room) When a team like Warren Central sends 14 guys to sectionals they get to pick from 50+ kids in the room. So those 14 represent 50+. Whereas the forfeit numbers in 1A suggest the average is close 10 sectional entries per team, so those 10 kids represent 10-12 wrestlers. It's hard to say our system is grossly unfair, even to the small schools as they are fairly represented both in terms of total student enrollment and participation rates. There are some good arguments for class wrestling but this and the forfeit data neither suggest overall improvement with the implementation of class wrestling (Y2K has made his point that it would help small schools, but it seems to come at the expense of the overall forfeit and participation rates)
  23. Westforkwhite
    I was informed of a mistake on Delaware Delaware - 10 - 8.4/ 100k Elkhart - 11 - 5.5/ 100k Adams isn't exactly a wealthy county, so it hardly explains away 7 times the participants per capita it has over Marion. Albeit there are many other factors involved, which ones factor more wasn't the point of the post.
  24. Westforkwhite
    Here are some numbers factoring the population of each county and the # of qualifiers. The first number represents the qualifiers the second number indicates the amount of wrestlers sent to state per each 100,000 persons. Or in words, how many wrestlers will go to state for every 100,00 persons living in that county (on average) Adams. 7 - 20.8/ 100k Allen. 6 - 1.6/ 100k Delaware 9 - 7.5/ 100k Hendricks 15 - 10.3/ 100k Lake. 20 - 4/ 100k Marion. 27 - 2.9/ 100k Per capita Adams and Hendricks are out front with Adams more than doubling the per capita wrestlers sent to state of the rest of the pack (I think we've all known this was a wrestling county, but to see the #s it's pretty amazing)
  25. Westforkwhite
    The referees were very solid all day, with a few exceptions. (didn't see any Bellmont bias) It's unfortunate that one of the most glaring and impactful mistakes occurred in the finals. It was a horrendous call which met by immediate crowd displeasure and wasn't limited to the Delta cheering section. Sadly it wasn't this refs only bad call, as he consistently asserted himself in the outcomes of matches. Again the other referees were excellent (hardly noticed them all day, which means they were awesome) this guy just wanted to be in the spotlight apparently.
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