bulldog145

Clinton Central MS is looking for a meet to fill a cancellation for 2/17.  

It can be a tournament or dual format.  Just trying to get our kids some more matches. 

You can email Coach Faulkner at

austin.faulkner@clinton.k12.in.us

Matt King was a wrestler in the 90's from Tipton

So dual meet results don't factor in at all??

Thoughts and prayers from the Clinton Central Bulldog Wrestlers.

Just now, Coach Brobst said:

 

Well shoot. I thought I knew all of them. Must be confusing my coaching staffs. 

No worries...us little guys tend to get overlooked. 

7 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Frankfort Sectional I know all but 1:

 

Carmel- Pendoski is a Lay coach

Fishers- Ingalls is at the school full time 

Westfield- Phil is a Teacher at the HS

Sheridan, Clinton Central, Clinton Prairie, Rossville, and Lebanon are all Lay coaches. 

 

I am a teacher.

 

Not certain on Frankfort's coach.

 

Clinton Central's coach has taught at CC for 19 years.

I second this with the addition of splitting into 2 Regional Sites and bringing the top 8 from both sites to make a 1 day 16 man tournament.  Maybe do it on a Saturday and Sunday or back to back weekends.  

42 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Right. That's kind of what I was thinking coming from a small school myself, getting to Regionals was a BIG deal for my teammates. I do wonder how that affects recruitment and retention at like Clinton Central or Rossville when kids know just to get to Regionals they're going to have to be better than at least one kid from HSE, Carmel, Westfield, or Fishers. 

 

Now to Maligned's point, if they keep all the teams in the same regional, it kinda doesn't matter as to how many Semi-State qualifiers you're going to get, but for Regional Qualifiers, it certainly does.

 

I can see that argument for sure. For HSE personally, a change in Sectionals won't mean much other than maybe 2-3 more Regional qualifiers annually (not a big deal for us), but 2-3 more for Sheridan or Frankfort could make retention and recruiting easier.

100% True.  With the recent success of a few Wrestlers from our school the past few years, our youth program has grown tremendously.  So having maybe 4-5 be Regional Qualifiers would be huge for a small program.  

Keeping them in the same Regional wouldn't bother me at all but at least "balance" the 2 Sectionals.  

3 hours ago, Coach Brobst said:

Sitting in the stands waiting for our next match, some of the other coaches and I got to thinking how some Regionals pit a strong sectional vs a weaker one (our Regional--North Montgomery--being one). I decided to crunch the numbers this morning:

 

North Montgomery Regional SSQs:

Frankfort Sectional: 41

Crawfordsville Sectional: 15 (Zionsville had 9 by themselves, meaning 6 others from the whole sectional)

 

BY comparison, here are the other Regionals in the New Castle Semi-State

 

Pendleton Heights Regional SSQs:

Elwood Sectional: 25

Arsenal Tech: 31

 

Richmond Regional SSQs:

South Dearborn: 33

Shenandoah: 23

 

Perry Meridian SSQs:

Shelbyville: 28

Southport: 28

 

So from this, 2 questions we kicked around:

1) Is this happening at other Regionals, where one sectional dominates the other? If not, question 2 probably doesn't matter.
2) Do we care? Does it matter at all or does it all even out because they are the same Regional anyways?

 

 

This has been an issue for years between those 2 Sectionals.  It was even worse before Zionsville moved over to Crawfordsville.  

I think it is very important when it comes to building a solid small school program.  Success breeds success.  I've voiced my opinion on this for years.  

Thanks!!!  I appreciate it!!!  

Is there a way to edit the season records under the coach profiles if they are inaccurate?

4 hours ago, Coach Brobst said:

I think the part you seem to be grossly missing is that it's not about next year. Or the year after that. Wrestling, as a funded High School sport, won't die in the next 2-5 years. It's in the next 10+ that it may be in trouble. 

 

I think all class wrestling supporters would concede that you're correct, not too many non-wrestlers will suddenly decide to come out just because the tournament is classed and then place that year (though there would probably be a handful). HOWEVER, now we have a situation where success breeds desire to be a part of something. 

 

Let's play a hypothetical: Indiana goes 2 classes for this past season and Cael Albaugh of Clinton Central qualifies and places (made it to semi-state this year, won his sectional, so not too much of a leap). Those other Clinton Central Bulldog football players see this about him and think to themselves "That looks fun, I like Cael and I think I could make it that far as well." Not all of them, mind you, but 2-3 of them. 

 

The following season, 2 Bulldogs make it to state and place. 3-4 others are in the semi-state. Then 3-4 new kids want to come out, and maybe one of them has a little brother or 2, then suddenly those kids are in club, where they would usually just be playing basketball. This sets up Clinton Central for some long term success that they can point to.

 

In 3-4 years, a small school that has 1-2 semi-state qualifiers every 2-3 years, suddenly has a program that can fill most, if not all, weight classes with competitive wrestlers instead of just bodies. The whole sport is better off for it.

 

Will there be programs that struggle no matter what? Yes. And will this scenario play out at every school? No, for sure, not. BUT, if it happens at 1-2 dozen schools in cycles it helps grow the sport in places it's not been flourishing recently.

 

There will always be exceptions of small school kids that overcome the odds and small school programs that find success. But Geography plays a HUGE role in which of those programs find massive success too. But that's a post for another time.

 

 

 

 

BINGO!!

1 minute ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If we went to a two-class system and keeping things close to the same big schools would have pretty much the same amount of success. 

 

You're right because there is too much separation from top tier to the bottom even with 2 classes.  3 Classes would make more sense.

13 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

You keep saying this because you think it's true, but it really isn't.  "Big" schools already compete against each other in Sectionals.  There's a bigger problem with smaller schools not facing any big schools during the season and come in to Sectionals with inflated records from forfeits and causing problems with proper seeding.  I don't blame the small schools for this, though, because it's hard to schedule a match when one doesn't have a full line up or JV, and it's probably a long drive there.

So the big schools would be ok with having less post season success due to being eliminated earlier in the tournament series because they face each other from 1st round?  I find that hard to believe.   

I have said this on here multiple times over the years when it comes to building a program at a small school.

Post season success is huge and will help build a program tremendously.  

It's extremely hard to get kids out when Sectional is probably the "end of the road" for the majority of small school wrestlers.  Who wants to wrestle when you can't win and who can win without wrestlers?

Classing is the clear answer.  But "big" schools don't want to wrestle each other early in the tournament series.  

On 2/14/2021 at 10:38 AM, Galagore said:

Can anyone explain to me the logic that leads someone to say that we should not have two (or more, but I like two) classes in our individual tournament because it is exciting and/or the goal is to crown one true champion in each weight (two most used pieces of logic that I have read). Many of the same people say that we should have wrestlebacks because a lot of kids who deserve to go to state don't get to go. Semi-finals, ticket round, and Friday night are my favorite rounds to watch, and it is because of the non-wrestleback, single-class system. The state tournament should not be organized based on what I like to watch, so I am in favor of both wrestlebacks and a two-class system.

 

Truly asking because I am a curious bird who likes to know how people think and not simply trolling UncleJimmy (didn't even tag you so you could ignore this thread if you wish)...How does one come to the conclusion that class is bad and wrestlebacks are good?

Bottom Line.....Big Schools don't want to wrestle each other at the beginning of the tournament series.  

If they do, that means less qualifiers, less placers, less post season success.  

What is the most common set of weight classes used for middle school tournaments that are NOT ran by USA or IHSWCA? 

What is the most common set of weight classes used for middle school tournaments that are NOT ran by USA or IHSWCA?  

I totally agree with that.... for this year's results.  I think we are both in agreement that there needs to be a change somehow, somewhere or these small school programs will disappear completely.  

42 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

With regards to just balancing our Regional out more, do you think that moving Lebanon and Carmel (for example as they're the biggest schools farthest west) over would really make much of a difference with your program? I'm really asking here, because it seems like, yes, there'd be an additional 1-2 spots open per weight for Regionals, but if you were going to lose to that kid at Sectionals, you'll lose to him at Regionals, right? Is making it to Regionals that much different than being put out at Sectional? Perhaps it is. I don't have a problem with it either way. As long as that Regional is the same teams, there's not likely to be much difference in how many kids from each program go to Semi-State.

Absolutely it would.  Taking 6-8 kids from our Sectional maybe with a Champ or 2 every year would absolutely help a program grow.  

33 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 I think when sectionals are drawn up, they're more concerned with lower mileage as compared to overall balance. To your point they could even things out more in sectionals  but you're still restrained by the geography of the state.  

I believe this is completely wrong.  Fishers and HSE drive time to Frankfort is just over and hour.  However they are only 45min or less away from Elwood.  And I'm sure there are more examples. 

1 of 2 things is happening. 

1. No one wants to put the work in to analyze a better solution OR

2. To much outside influence controlling alignments.

3 minutes ago, Indysportsfan said:

 

Naturally successful postseason runs (at any level) will help a program, but unfortunately it is NOT possible to allow every athlete/program to have success.  You do the best you can but you must realize that it will not be equal for all; that is impossible to achieve.  I am sure wrestlers who lose because of a tough draw (Sectional, Regional or SS) know they could have easily advanced at a weaker venue but I guarantee it will help them in the long run.  Experiencing failure is vital to achieve quality learning and growing into adulthood.

I totally understand that and agree with you, but wouldn't we want to maximize the chance of an opportunity?  

I stand corrected.  I missed that Benton Central flipped over to Twin Lakes.  (Probably as an attempt to balance Sectionals)  The point of this was to point out that an overloaded sectional really snuffs a school trying to build a solid program when their is no post season success.  It is very frustrating for kids to see competition that they have beaten have post season success and the only reason for it is because of a more balanced Sectional.  

You can't tell me that having kids with a successful post season does not help build a program.  

This issue needs to be addressed or we will lose programs.

I would like to see the opinions of the bottom half of the better sectionals of their programs continued success based off those results.  I would be willing to bet they are struggling.

Lafayette Jeff Sectional        340    55.20%
Twin Lakes Sectional        276    44.80%

I disagree.  Had Attica stayed in  the Crawfordsville sectional, the Northmont Regional was a dead end (with the exception of a very few outliers).  

Since the move to Lafayette Jeff (which is relatively balanced with the Twin Lakes Sectional) they have been able to send a hand full of kids to SS for the last few years.  One has to believe the success of those kids has fueled the development of a solid program.