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Powerline

Gorillas
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  1. Not a Hobart guy, but I'd put you up there !
  2. You need to include the guys that laid the foundation, like Dave Yeager Champion In 83 or 84 he beat a pretty good Mark Toriamena (from Leo that was NJCAA & champ who then Wrestled at Oklahoma State)
  3. Agreed, the issue I have with topic of 'best wrestler never to qualify for state' is that in my opinion, no one who wrestled after say after the early 1980's has a real gripe or grievance because pre-mid 1980's, you did not get the extra sectional, regional, semi-state, and state qualifiers You get today, nor the seeding. Every year you had several top 10 - 15 guys getting matched up in a sectional or regional draw bounced...
  4. I'm sorry, but that Mullet has disqualified him from any best-of-all-time discussion, end of story!
  5. Brad Traviolia, Wawasee - 1986 Indiana State Champ - currently Big Ten Deputy Commissioner http://www.nusports.com/genrel/traviolia_brad00.html Wrestled on Indiana Jr. freestyle teams with him. Brad is one of the good guys...
  6. Definitely some strong back-up, but remember Angel is State Record holder with 156 pins, won all his matches, except for a loss out-of-state his Freshman year I think. However, the deciding criteria for me is that he was so dominant, he immediately was an NCAA All-American and had NCAA finishes of 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 3x Big 10 Champion. If Ellis had followed up his awesome High-School Career with similar or even less credentials, that I could have given him the nod. I saw them both wrestle many, many times, and they were both freaks. I knew after seeing Angel his Freshman year, that he would be better than Big T-Shirts after High School because of his explosiveness and athleticism, and while you could tell he loved the sport, when he wrestled he was emotionally even-keeled.
  7. Even the comparison criteria between guys like Ellis and Angel are interesting. From a college and dynamic standpoint, it is not hard to argue Escobedo's success there after high school. But, criteria wise, Ellis being the first four timer in like 38 years has to be weighed heavily. Now we are in a heyday with four x 4x'rs in the last 8 years.
  8. Sarcasm my friend, Sarcasm, the Tub-A-Lard was sarcasm toward big guys...of which we all appreciate. ;D I still think he is a great wrestler, and due to his combination of size and technique has huge upside. I just think like many, he is, amazingly, still work in progress. Let's see what he does at Northwestern before ranking him. I wish him nothing but the best and he becomes a 4x'r. But if someone throws out the title of Best-all-time, back it up with honest & scholastic comparison for what those before have done. As well, if there is going to be frank discussion about the best of all time, dissecting what are all great wrestlers and careers, the dissecting & evaluation of the little things in each of them and their records, might sound like harping and disrespect, but it is not, it's throwing hypothetical comparisons, of which it might bruise egos of what are stellar careers, with no belittlement assumed. Because truth be told, he is one of my favorite wrestlers to follow. My sarcastic humor should have been directed on the poster who throws in best ever, and then leaves out guys like Andrew Howe and Angel, who are already NCAA champions. Regardless of opinion, that's pretty silly to leave off a guy like Howe who goes 2,1,3 at his first three NCAA's...sheesh, wake up. To that point, since we are throwing hypothetical comparisons. If someone is going to use Cadet success as a basis (and it is well respected and earned) the question has to be asked, what is the criteria? And if a guy wins Cadet National titles, but finishes 3rd in his own state folkstyle, can you really claim the Cadet is > Folkstyle State Titles?
  9. Did not say he was a great wrestler and was not near the top. But in the last 10 years, there are been 5 - 3x champs, and 4-4x champs with a few of them currently having success at the Olympic National level, and none of that was presented in the argument. To the question of Sliga, for his age at Cadet, where the variance in maturity at the light weights is small, Sliga definitely was more mature than the group at the Cadet and high school and national level; Most Freshman-Sophomores at 195-210 pounds are pudgy tub-a-lards who have not matured yet, not coordinated due to the size, and if they are they focus on football or basketball. You could see he initially had it tougher at the Jr. level with the bigger variance in maturity. But he adjusted this year and definitely showed.
  10. Not enough guys have the size, physical maturity, toughness, and technique at that age. The pool is limited. In the lighter weights, you can see many cases where pure offensive technique guys can overcome strength, and physical maturity. At the same time, the ability to score defensively is a premium or luxury. (Great example is how Tsirstis - his ability to score off of counter is what I believe set him apart as he moved from light weight to middle weights.) In the middle weights, it's technique, strength, and pound-for-pound nasty toughness. A balance of offensive accomplishment and defensive ability are required. These weights can just be all out brawls and street fights. A lot of matches in the state finals where the tougher guy beat out the technique guy. For the upper weights my theory is this: #1 - You don't see that many kids with that size as Freshman and Sophomores. The guys that do stay in wrestling and are not lost to football are pretty good athletes (in Sliga's case, great athletes) but not enough of them stay in the sport. So having one like Sliga who was way more mature, better technique, wrestled year round, is rare. But 90% of the big guys he wrestles just do not get the reps and number of year round matches to be polished and fluid like Sliga (which is also a prop to Sliga's work ethic). #2 - Raw Strength, Maturity, and defensive ability in the upper weights can overcome a decent technique guy. These guys are basically linebackers who wrestle. The difference is they might not have 100 moves like Sliga, but they know how to use what they do. But the guys who have offensive skills at that weight are a premium In Sliga's Freshman and Sophomore years, his technique got him almost all the way, but he ran into some guys (Atwood, Stevenson) who had just enough offense to score and were strong enough to counter his really good offense (he still was technically superior), and much of that was due to just 'old man strength' and brute toughness. But by his Jr. year, you saw a transformation from technique and good strength to where he was just better defensively and was just plain meaner. Don't know the guy personally but he seemed more mature, wanted to pin guys and put them away, a sense of urgency. But if you look at guys with good technique that have been able to let their bodies grow, they do pretty good in the bigger weights if they can adjust to the strength required and had good defensive technique. Take a guy like Brian Harvey who goes from 103 to State Champ at 160. A better example is the number of college guys in the MAC who were pretty good middle weights in high school, but perhaps not top rated due to depth in the wight class. They go off to a MAC School or East Coast Conference, get huge, and are stud 184 / 197 lb'rs in the NCAA. In college, I think he can be special because he will stay at 197 lb for years, which is rare. The cycle starts again.
  11. Best combination? I think no doubt Sliga is a fine wrestler and a great athlete, and he could be considered one of the best big man but I think we should wait to rank him until his college career is done, which I hope is a great one. But, my justification is this: #1 - No big man should ever be in the top 5; the competition and depth is just not that good as the light and middle weights. Rarely are the guys at his weight training year round in wrestling. For every 197 lb'r wrestling year round, there are twenty 138 lb'rs. #2 - He only won two Titles and never really beat a state champ or had tough weight classes with much depth of returning placers or finalists. He had a great Fargo this year, but if I recall, last year he got thrown around like a rag doll at Fargo. #3 - Some like to use the fact he was younger in a typical Jr. / Sr. weight class as a justification to not winning more Titles, but the same could be used against him as he had 4 years in the same weight class. He was far more physically mature, and I support what some said in that in freestyle, he was able to beat up on tub-a-lards in the Cadet ranks. But to say he is the best is a premature analysis with limited historical respect. For big men, some of the all-timer he would have to beat out: > Bud Palmer - Muncie - 2x State Champ, 3rd and 2nd for Iowa at NCAA's in mid 1970's > John Ginther - 2X state champ Delta, 3x NCAA AA for Arizona State > Keith Davison - Chesterton - 2X State Champ, 3rd and 5th at NCAA's for Wisconsin > Mark Whitehead - Warsaw - NCAA Runner-up for Northwestern >Traicoff - Gary - Several time NCAA placer in the 1930's
  12. Got to respectfully disagree. Angel Escobedo would be by far tops due to both his high school and collegiate career and it's not even close. Ellis had an incredible high school feat, and was tough as nails, but Angel had a bit more athleticism. Angel Escobedo - State record holder for Most Pins, 156, Career Record of 223 wins, 4x State Champion College - Angel Escobedo 4x All-American, NCAA finishes of 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 3x Big 10 Champion And he wasn't a little hot-head.
  13. Some less recent & really old school guys off top of my head: Alan Grammer - IHSAA 1978 & 79 Runner-up. Went on to SIU Edwardsville , 3x - NCAA Division II All-American and 2x DIV-II Champ. At 85 & 86 DIV I Nationals he was All-American with 3rd place and fifth in some deep weight classes. Won like 120 matches at SIUE. I would have to put him at the top. Chris Traicoff - 1930's - was NCAA AA at IU but not sure he was ever state champ? Joe Lilovich - Runner-up and Placer - Went on to win Big Ten Championship in 87 or 88 at Purdue Nick Hardwick, Lawrence North - This one is from left field just to show what great story & athlete he was. State Runner up in 1998? Never played football in high school, then, while watching Drew Brees led Rose Bowl Team as a freshman student at Purdue, decides that he wants to walk on the football team. Becomes All Big-Ten Lineman, goes to NFL where he has already played 10 years in the NFL, made the pro-bowl, etc. http://www.chargers.com/team/roster/Nick-Hardwick/681bbcc9-53c2-4995-be3e-a170ebeac512
  14. Agreed on the former. That 119 lb final had to be the most intense and exciting 45 seconds to finish a match I have ever seen. Someone previously posted this video of it: http://www.ihigh.com/hoosierauthority/video_893317.html With regards to Petrov the following year, agree 1000%, you hit it with 'tenacious'. I would have given him OW for tournament. In the Semi's just when you think he has it in the bag and can back-off the throttle after a late takedown, keeps the legs trapped and goes for the pin against a returning state champ, Mason Todd. Just think, looking back to the year prior in 2010, how about this semi-final parings at 112, Mat 1 = Petrov vs Todd, and Mat 2 = Phillips vs. Brooks, all guys who would have state titles to their name.
  15. Is this they guy that got into throwing haymakers in the 3rd place match against McCloskey?
  16. If he's so good, how come he only has one state title? He has been a big guy for years wrestling little Freshman and Sophomores. he got dominated at State his Jr year in the semifinals, and he is going to get beat this year, take that to Vegas. He was afraid to step up and wrestling 220 this year, Book it!!!
  17. Another good one - 1982 - 1983 - 119lbs - Barry Hart from Elkhart Central rode one move all the way to a state title against Mike Silverman, Carmel 10-8. (and every match at State) Hart wasn't the greatest on his feet, or on top, but he would lie-in-waiting to hit his Gramby Roll into a Peterson combination for 5 points every time. Every freaking match, everyone in the gym new it was coming, and he would just bait guys, and then boom, he hipped out, grab they guys hand tightwasting him, right into his Gramby, where he ended up with the guy looking at the lights and Hart sitting hold his arm and leg. I think he purposely let guys take him down to hit that.
  18. Like this? http://www.ihigh.com/hoosierauthority/video_893317.html
  19. Yes, but he was slacking last week; I mean he had a 7 second pin at sectionals, and did not match that at regionals, what have you done for us lately. I could forgive that, but then I saw him wearing that ugly ass Penn State shirt !
  20. Richmond vs. Mageria - Beat me too it by 1 minute - see my post below on Richmond - remember it well.
  21. This match hands down - http://www.ihigh.com/hoosierauthority/video_893317.html Had not seen a more furious finish by two very good wrestlers, who just happened to have something like 150+ wins a piece by the end of their Junior year. Another finish I remember was either 1985 or 1986, Oliver Richmond from Fort Wayne wrestling Tom Mageria from Merrillville in state 112lb finals. 5-5 match with Richmond down with two seconds left, from the whistle, hits the fastest combination standup to switch I have ever seen to win his second title. The crowd was in awe.
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