I now see the light of Class wrestling

[aoberlin]

I have thought long and hard on this and hurts me dearly to admit it because I want to get under those lights sooner or later. But.... it's time we class Indiana High School wrestling. The skill level of wrestling has only increased and is only increasing across the board in Indiana.  We aren't being fair to our kids to say we don't want to class it because we enjoy the show so much. It's like we are enjoying watching a real live Hunger Game. As coaches and fans there is no difference between us not wanting to change to class wrestling than the IHSAA not giving us wrestlebacks. We know the IHSAA isn't going to do that. Then what should we do in order level the playing field a little more so our kids get more opportunities and we try to grow the sport at every school?

 

Bring on the hate.... but the kids need to come first.

 

Oh... and quit wearing jeans when you coach at the high school level.

[casualwrestlingfan]

I keep beating a dead horse, but why can't we have the IHSWCA Team State Duals, then a classed IHSAA individual tournament, and end the year with a single class IHSAA individual tournament. Use the classed tournament to help seed the single class. Other states go into March so we aren't breaking new ground in that aspect. Yes our state makes it hard hosting basketball tournaments of all levels, but I'm sure a venue could be found.

[Tcarter]

Respectfully disagree (except on wearing jeans to coach), keep the state tournament pure, 1 real state champion per weight class.

[UncleJimmy]

40 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

I have thought long and hard on this and hurts me dearly to admit it because I want to get under those lights sooner or later. But.... it's time we class Indiana High School wrestling. The skill level of wrestling has only increased and is only increasing across the board in Indiana.  We aren't being fair to our kids to say we don't want to class it because we enjoy the show so much. It's like we are enjoying watching a real live Hunger Game. As coaches and fans there is no difference between us not wanting to change to class wrestling than the IHSAA not giving us wrestlebacks. We know the IHSAA isn't going to do that. Then what should we do in order level the playing field a little more so our kids get more opportunities and we try to grow the sport at every school?

 

Bring on the hate.... but the kids need to come first.

 

Oh... and quit wearing jeans when you coach at the high school level.

Hang on...let me see if I got this right. 

 

So IN wrestling talent/skill has increased, which I agree with (see College Board for the IN dudes doin' work). That has happened in a non-classed system. So now that increased skill is somehow a problem and we "aren't being fair to our kids" so we want to class it to decrease our skill level statewide? I'm really #Confused. 

 

Did @Galagore hijack your account? Gee I sure hope this class thread gets to 10 pages!!  

 

I vowed to never do this again..but here we are. 

 

Anybody pumped for Parris vs Davison in the quarters? 

Edited March 17, 2023 by UncleJimmy

[aoberlin]

11 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said:

Hang on...let me see if I got this right. 

 

So IN wrestling talent/skill has increased, which I agree with (see College Board for the IN dudes doin' work). That has happened in a non-classed system. So now that increased skill is somehow a problem and we "aren't being fair to our kids" so we want to class it to decrease our skill level statewide? I'm really #Confused. 

 

Did @Galagore hijack your account? Gee I sure hope this class thread gets to 10 pages!!  

 

I vowed to never do this again..but here we are. 

 

Anybody pumped for Parris vs Davison in the quarters? 

My argument would be, it hasn't increased because of our State tournament but despite it. It has gotten better because of the academies and the crazy people like us having our kids be super specialized in a sport at a very young age. Not sure it is the healthiest thing. Half these kids at the youth tournaments have never even been to the High School State finals. So... maybe it is parents pushing even harder at a young age to reach that goal. The real question is. Is it what is best for the kids and the sport?

[indypharmd]

28 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

My argument would be, it hasn't increased because of our State tournament but despite it. It has gotten better because of the academies and the crazy people like us having our kids be super specialized in a sport at a very young age. Not sure it is the healthiest thing. Half these kids at the youth tournaments have never even been to the High School State finals. So... maybe it is parents pushing even harder at a young age to reach that goal. The real question is. Is it what is best for the kids and the sport?

A few questions...:

1. What's the problem statement?

2. What's the hypothesis?

3. How will a "change" potentially solve the problem?

4. How will success be measured?

 

I'd also surmise that a little more data aggregation and analysis would be necessary to come to a decision point that  "problems" exist and need to be addressed. Additionally, a further definition of what the goal of the IHSAA Championship actually is would help further help define courses of action or inaction...

 

For example, is the goal to identify a champion or is it crown a champion and maximize gate/ticket sales or is it to have parity and/or equity or is it TBD?

 

The Team State provided by the IHSWCA has done quite a bit to provide better equity in a team race already. So, would a solution for a classed individual tournament lie with a group outside of IHSAA? 

 

I think these type questions would help answer what an alternative would look like and potential impacts.

[MattM]

What's with the click-bait subject titles lately.  "It's Official"  or "Potential Change."  Neither of these are things that are official changes or even considered openly as a potential change by the IHSAA that governs the sport.  The only groups that actually can make any of this happen. How about just saying it like it is, "I now see the light of Class wrestling" or "Here a 1A/2A Option to Consider"  If someone need clicks to up their status or are staved for discussion just let us know what to click on to help out, but stop with these suggestive subject titles that just a bait-and-switch.

Edited March 17, 2023 by MattM

[aoberlin]

4 minutes ago, MattM said:

What's with the click-bait subject titles lately.  "It's Official"  or "Potential Change."  Neither of these are things that are being discussed openly or considered as a potential change by the IHSAA that governs the sport.  The only groups that actually can make any of this happen. How about just saying it like it is, "I now see the light of Class wrestling" or "Here a 1A/2A Option to Consider"  If someone need clicks to up their status or are staved for discussion just let us know what to click on to help out, but stop with these suggestive subject titles that just a bait-and-switch.

That's fair. Didn't think about that. Changed.

[igotcaught]

Imagine if Allred and Parris competed in a class state tournament. Crazy to think a 1a and 2a school from Indiana produced 2 big 10 champions this year. Not saying it’s common, but definitely interesting

[aoberlin]

36 minutes ago, igotcaught said:

Imagine if Allred and Parris competed in a class state tournament. Crazy to think a 1a and 2a school from Indiana produced 2 big 10 champions this year. Not saying it’s common, but definitely interesting

For me it’s really not about the size of the school. It’s about more opportunities for the kids. I still think if you have a great wrestling culture at any size school the kids can do well. My mind will not be changed on that.

[Grenadier2012]

4 hours ago, igotcaught said:

Imagine if Allred and Parris competed in a class state tournament. Crazy to think a 1a and 2a school from Indiana produced 2 big 10 champions this year. Not saying it’s common, but definitely interesting

Not defending or bashing the class argument, but those two are anomalies. First state champs in their respective school history if I remember correctly. It's far more likely to happen from a blue blood or larger program. I get what the OP is saying. The gap has grown significantly.

 

Indiana used to be known as a top heavy state. However, now that the depth is coming along, without wrestlebacks, the "ticket round" tragedies are becoming far more frequent. 

[RASSLER4LIFE]

Shenandoah, Silas’s alma mater, also produced AJ Black(runner-up x 2), Scott Gross(runner-up) and Jordan Slivka cut his teeth there before moving on to Cathedral. This doesn’t include Gee, Surguy, Lohrey and Pugsley as state qualifiers and placers. 
 

I agree that the “big” schools have a lot more depth but I still feel that small schools can compete. I had the pleasure of speaking with Jordan Burroughs this week and one of the first things he mentioned was the fact Indiana had 1 true state champion per weight class, not multiple like class systems. 

[aoberlin]

Again I repeat. It’s not a small school  vs a big school for me. It’s just about more opportunities for the kids. Give me 6 from every semistate and wrestlebacks and I think we are back to where we need to be. 

[BeachBum77]

I wonder if a classed system would lead to more transfers, or less. I understand that moving happens for a variety of reasons, but would kids still transfer for better coaching, or stay home for the  shot at State? Do more kids transfer to an "easier" class? I enjoy the current format, but wouldn't be opposed to classed.

[Galagore]

Why have wrestlebacks? If you just work hard enough, you will be the bad draw and won't need wrestlebacks.

 

Small schools aren't playing the same game as big schools.

 

Wrestling should be classed for teams and individuals.

 

Our tournament is amazing, but spectator engagement should not factor into how we conduct our tournament.

[Mitchell1993]

Let the wrestle back convo begin

[GenHeavyHandz]

On 3/17/2023 at 11:22 AM, UncleJimmy said:

Hang on...let me see if I got this right. 

 

So IN wrestling talent/skill has increased, which I agree with (see College Board for the IN dudes doin' work). That has happened in a non-classed system. So now that increased skill is somehow a problem and we "aren't being fair to our kids" so we want to class it to decrease our skill level statewide? I'm really #Confused. 

 

Did @Galagore hijack your account? Gee I sure hope this class thread gets to 10 pages!!  

 

I vowed to never do this again..but here we are. 

 

Anybody pumped for Parris vs Davison in the quarters? 

I mean I couldn’t have said it better myself 

[GenHeavyHandz]

How many kids go to Mater Dei?

Edited March 18, 2023 by GenHeavyHandz
Clarification

[aoberlin]

51 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

How many kids go to Mater Dei?

All of Evansville if they can recruit them. I will add before anyone gets mad I have nothing but respect for the dynasty that is MD. 
 

Probably another unpopular opinion. I think it is easier to build a wrestling culture in a smaller school than a big school. And I feel having a prideful wrestling culture at a school system is everything. It also really helps if you have past wrestlers from the school being a part of the current program. Which goes hand and hand with a wrestling culture.

 I just don’t care that much anymore about the experience of the tournament as much as I care about wanting more opportunities for the kids we love and watch work hard. 

 

If I am truthful I really just want more qualifiers and wrestlebacks. But something has to change.

[GenHeavyHandz]

11 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

All of Evansville if they can recruit them. Probably another unpopular opinion. I think it is easier to build a wrestling culture in a smaller school than a big school. And I feel having a prideful wrestling culture at a school system is everything. It also really helps if you have past wrestlers from the school being a part of the current program. Which goes hand and hand with a wrestling culture.

 I just don’t care that much anymore about the experience of the tournament as much as I care about wanting more opportunities for the kids we love and watch work hard. 

 

If I am truthful I really just want more qualifiers and wrestlebacks. But something has to change.

I meant the actual student body. I’m not trying to throw shade here. But I think you know where I’m going with this. Copy them. Call their coaches. Reach out to those who are winning and take your team to club practice there. We plan on taking several trips to RWA this summer. I send my kids to practice at Sebolt and Big Game and Easter Iowa but they belong to DC Elite.  Can’t beat’em join’em. No shame in it. Get that work.  Warren Wrestling Academy has an open door policy.  Network with those you want to emulate. 

[aoberlin]

41 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

I meant the actual student body. I’m not trying to throw shade here. But I think you know where I’m going with this. Copy them. Call their coaches. Reach out to those who are winning and take your team to club practice there. We plan on taking several trips to RWA this summer. I send my kids to practice at Sebolt and Big Game and Easter Iowa but they belong to DC Elite.  Can’t beat’em join’em. No shame in it. Get that work.  Warren Wrestling Academy has an open door policy.  Network with those you want to emulate. 

I’m not talking about my school at all as far wanting more opportunities. My wrestlers have no excuses and they just need to take advantage of the opportunities in front of them and be more hungry and they will be fine. Creating that real hunger is what I am focusing on and the youth are the key.   My 100+ youth club fell off when CoVid hit and hasn’t opened back up because since then we haven’t had a real wrestling room and the public can’t go in. Which is one reason I started The Fort because I was locked out of the school for my youth programs. I have been head coach for 3 years and we have been 52-17 with 22 semi-state qualifiers. 2 x Sectional Champs and qualified all 14 to Regional 2 years in a row. One we get 2 or more super stars and we are in the mix.  (We had a couple very close this year) We have 0 move ins or transfers. Wrestling is a little bit of a fringe sport at my school and we get kids that don’t make the team in the main sports so I really need to change the culture. With that said we are the largest school to not have a qualifier this year. We are one of 3 big schools in Fort Wayne semi-state and we need to pull our weight. I understand all of that more than anyone else. 
 

I opened The Fort to get kids in front of local talent and bring national talent to the area because not enough kids were traveling for it. It is working and it is coming but it will not be overnight. Also I talk to coaches every day of the week and I never assume I have all the answers. 
 

My concern isn’t even this area so much yet…. It’s coming and I see how hard our youth in the area are working and I would like more opportunity for them. Evansville was insane this year at semi-state and when that truly starts happening here I don’t think that is the best thing for the kids.

[ILUV2PIN]

Class wrestling does us no good, guys. For crying out loud, I’m sick of seeing the classed states having the highest numbers of AA’s across all levels of the collegiate sport. The best states are classed. I know we love our one champ thing. But that is novelty. It doesn’t really prove anything in the grand scheme of thing. I’m probably biased since my brother won a classes title, but I say do what the best are doing. 

[GenHeavyHandz]

17 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

I’m not talking about my school at all as far wanting more opportunities. My wrestlers have no excuses and they just need to take advantage of the opportunities in front of them and be more hungry and they will be fine. Creating that real hunger is what I am focusing on and the youth are the key.   My 100+ youth club fell off when CoVid hit and hasn’t opened back up because since then we haven’t had a real wrestling room and the public can’t go in. Which is one reason I started The Fort because I was locked out of the school for my youth programs. I have been head coach for 3 years and we have been 52-17 with 22 semi-state qualifiers. 2 x Sectional Champs and qualified all 14 to Regional 2 years in a row. One we get 2 or more super stars and we are in the mix.  (We had a couple very close this year) We have 0 move ins or transfers. Wrestling is a little bit of a fringe sport at my school and we get kids that don’t make the team in the main sports so I really need to change the culture. With that said we are the largest school to not have a qualifier this year. We are one of 3 big schools in Fort Wayne semi-state and we need to pull our weight. I understand all of that more than anyone else. 
 

I opened The Fort to get kids in front of local talent and bring national talent to the area because not enough kids were traveling for it. It is working and it is coming but it will not be overnight. Also I talk to coaches every day of the week and I never assume I have all the answers. 
 

My concern isn’t even this area so much yet…. It’s coming and I see how hard our youth in the area are working and I would like more opportunity for them. Evansville was insane this year at semi-state and when that truly starts happening here I don’t think that is the best thing for the kids.

I prefer a Multi- Class system. I spend half my time in Iowa and 3 classes doesn’t seem to hurt them. I was making suggestions for the here and now because A multi-class system isn’t a reality at this time. So I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Focus only on what you can control and contribute.

[GenHeavyHandz]

Not to beat a dead horse: Andy your success has been disseminated across the area. You've already seen results, just not for your team yet. You've only been open for less than 2 years. The wins will come. The studs are being formed now they are just in 4th grade. Some kids will move in when they find out about the edifice you coach at.  Homestead is a fantastic school.  My all time favorite wrestler State Champion Mark Bruner went there.  My buddies the twins Thom and Tim Reed wrestled there.  You'll be back I'd gather this upcoming year.  Especially if you call me.  Ask around.

Edited March 18, 2023 by GenHeavyHandz

[MattM]

1 hour ago, ILUV2PIN said:

For crying out loud, I’m sick of seeing the classed states having the highest numbers of AA’s across all levels of the collegiate sport. The best states are classed. I know we love our one champ thing. 

I’m not diving into this threads whole class argument, but this point is worth showing how cherry picking statistics work both ways and doesn’t always tell the whole story. 

 

The worst state are classes too.  In fact there are many classed states that have less AAs per year compared to single class states of CA, NJ, and IN.  So it could easily be said that class wrestling must be holding those states back as it could that class wrestling is pushing a few states to the top.  The fact is class wrestling by itself can be shown to not be the magic bullet for all wrestling state too.  

 

And honestly judging a entire states quality just based on college AAs is pretty crazy for me to wrap my head around considering that the absolute best of the best which obviously take a much bigger wrestling dedication level than just getting the experience of participating in a classed state. Participants in college wrestling seems more reliable of an across the board look at quality wrestling states, but I’m guessing we would still see many class states with low numbers there too.  

 

The numbers for both your statement and mine are due to the simple fact that all but 3 US states are classed. So statistically the odds of the highest and lowest states being classed are huge.  

 

You likely could find some advantages to point to where class wrestling may help wrestling, but the argument that class states develop more AAs just because they are classes isn’t exactly true when looking at all states. 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by MattM