Potential Big Changes in Indiana Wrestling

[crosstownrivals]

I would love to talk about this. I did coach at CMA for two years out of college and yes it was difficult to develop talent. But those individuals we had found ways to get better. Off season wrestling, going to other clubs, private coaches. 
I can see both sides of the argument but there are ways we just need to find them. In 2007 we had to rebuild Penn and it was a tough few years, did we have more numbers? Yes. But it took an army of coaches, pulling kids out of the hallways, having fun, going on trips. It takes hard word. Honestly I’m going to use a guy like @QuinnHarrishe took a small cascade team in a couple of years and was making noise, they don’t have the numbers like Penn does either. Look at Wawasee they are a tiny rural school as well and they are producing state guys each year. I could name more schools if I wanted to. 
 All classing is going to do is water down Indiana wrestling. 

[QuinnHarris]

1 minute ago, crosstownrivals said:

I would love to talk about this. I did coach at CMA for two years out of college and yes it was difficult to develop talent. But those individuals we had found ways to get better. Off season wrestling, going to other clubs, private coaches. 
I can see both sides of the argument but there are ways we just need to find them. In 2007 we had to rebuild Penn and it was a tough few years, did we have more numbers? Yes. But it took an army of coaches, pulling kids out of the hallways, having fun, going on trips. It takes hard word. Honestly I’m going to use a guy like @QuinnHarrishe took a small cascade team in a couple of years and was making noise, they don’t have the numbers like Penn does either. Look at Wawasee they are a tiny rural school as well and they are producing state guys each year. I could name more schools if I wanted to. 
 All classing is going to do is water down Indiana wrestling. 

Success can be found anywhere! Just have to find a guy willing to put in the time for the kids!!! OPPORTUNITY OPPORTUNITY OPPORTUNITY! The more you make available to your kids the more everyone will grow

[RAJR]

4 minutes ago, crosstownrivals said:

Look at Wawasee they are a tiny rural school

Not a tiny school. Enrollment shows over 900.  SMH...  The only thing watered down would be some people's opinion. All I observe when a school wins a class championship is excitement and community pride.

 

I went to a large school about 2,000, my kids' school was about 500. Big difference in many areas, resources, facilities, number of coaches and fewer practice partners (especially quality partners) to name a few. Yes, you have to put in the hard work and a lot is accomplished outside of the school season. But there is more to it than work harder for small schools. 

[Galagore]

48 minutes ago, crosstownrivals said:

I would love to talk about this. I did coach at CMA for two years out of college and yes it was difficult to develop talent. But those individuals we had found ways to get better. Off season wrestling, going to other clubs, private coaches. 
I can see both sides of the argument but there are ways we just need to find them. In 2007 we had to rebuild Penn and it was a tough few years, did we have more numbers? Yes. But it took an army of coaches, pulling kids out of the hallways, having fun, going on trips. It takes hard word. Honestly I’m going to use a guy like @QuinnHarrishe took a small cascade team in a couple of years and was making noise, they don’t have the numbers like Penn does either. Look at Wawasee they are a tiny rural school as well and they are producing state guys each year. I could name more schools if I wanted to. 
 All classing is going to do is water down Indiana wrestling. 

 

Ah, see you coached at CMA, a private boarding school with an enrollment of about 800. I am talking about comparing Penn to Culver Community, a small rural school with an enrollment of about 240. There is a big difference between Culver Community and Culver Academy.

 

Trust me, we are working to "find a way" every season, and will continue to do so.

[QuinnHarris]

12 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

Ah, see you coached at CMA, a private boarding school with an enrollment of about 800. I am talking about comparing Penn to Culver Community, a small rural school with an enrollment of about 240. There is a big difference between Culver Community and Culver Academy.

 

Trust me, we are working to "find a way" every season, and will continue to do so.

Cascade has an enrollment of about 495.

No state qualifiers from 1966-2008. 4 qualifiers from 2008-2014. 3 qualifiers in 2022, 2023. 

At small schools the coach needs to create opportunities just like the big school. Host an RTC, carpool to an RTC, host offseason practices even if it’s 6+ kids someone is improving although it’s not a room full of 25+ you are still getting better and growing!

 

Again I’ll say it, CREATE OPPORTUNITIES, the success will follow!

 

[Galagore]

Furthermore, if anyone else is working with an "army" of coaches, feel free to send some to southern Marshall County. Even two or three would do us wonders. We currently have three in the program, so you could double our numbers and barely make a dent in yours.

[Galagore]

2 minutes ago, QuinnHarris said:

Cascade has an enrollment of about 495.

No state qualifiers from 1966-2008. 4 qualifiers from 2008-2014. 3 qualifiers in 2022, 2023. 

At small schools the coach needs to create opportunities just like the big school. Host an RTC, carpool to an RTC, host offseason practices even if it’s 6+ kids someone is improving although it’s not a room full of 25+ you are still getting better and growing!

 

Again I’ll say it, CREATE OPPORTUNITIES, the success will follow!

 

 

Sounds like a powerhouse school in a two-class system.

[Galagore]

Why do you assume that we are not putting in effort?

 

Why do you assume that we are not running an intramural league for our k-3 grades so that parents don't have to travel an hour+ in the wee hours on Sunday to get exposed to the sport?

 

Why do you assume that we (along with Triton, Urey, Knox, Judson) are not working hard to develop a wrestling league for grades 4 and 5 for the same reason stated above?

 

Why do you assume that we have coaches to cover these teams (along with our MS team) so that the varsity coach doesn't have to coach or assist all of them?

 

Why do you assume that we do not offer off-season wrestling for our varsity wrestlers as well as opportunities to attend camps with school-provided transportation?

 

Our coaches are dedicated. Our kids work their tails off. Our administration supports the hell out of us.

 

We are playing a different game.

 

[QuinnHarris]

12 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Why do you assume that we are not putting in effort?

 

Why do you assume that we are not running an intramural league for our k-3 grades so that parents don't have to travel an hour+ in the wee hours on Sunday to get exposed to the sport?

 

Why do you assume that we (along with Triton, Urey, Knox, Judson) are not working hard to develop a wrestling league for grades 4 and 5 for the same reason stated above?

 

Why do you assume that we have coaches to cover these teams (along with our MS team) so that the varsity coach doesn't have to coach or assist all of them?

 

Why do you assume that we do not offer off-season wrestling for our varsity wrestlers as well as opportunities to attend camps with school-provided transportation?

 

Our coaches are dedicated. Our kids work their tails off. Our administration supports the hell out of us.

 

We are playing a different game.

 

Never said you weren’t doing those things. I was the High School head coach and ran our youth league taking kids to tournaments myself every Sunday as well as running weekly practices.

 

All I’m stating is that it takes exactly that A TON OF WORK, and then some, to build success. No matter what size school you are at there are hurdles! 

[Galagore]

The “you” was more general to all those suggesting we all just work harder and not push for class wrestling. 

[crosstownrivals]

How do you want to class the sport? 
By size of school? Number of kids on a team? Private and Parochial own state series? Once you start classing the sport it opens up another can of worms.
Do schools get to pick what class they are in? ( ie Mater Dei 2A but wants to wrestle 4a) what about a school like East Chicago central 4A but only has 15 kids on the team do they get to wrestle down. Where do you draw the lines? Can we run it like professional soccer leagues? Top 20 schools each year stay in that class bottom 4 get regulated down a class? Lots of scenarios!!!!  
If the IHSAA makes wrestling into classes, do we have to class all sports (Title IX).

The following sports would have to be classed:

Tennis

Track and Field

Cross Country 

Swimming and Diving

Gymnastics

Girls Wrestling (soon to be)

 

All of these sports have the same arguments as well. 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by crosstownrivals

[casualwrestlingfan]

@Galagore You seem to be on a better path than the situation I became involved in just across the border in Ohio. The school is major basketball and most of the basketball supporters would love to kill off the wrestling program in its infancy. The youth club was started by the current HS head coach and is maybe 6 to 8 years tops. The MS program just finished year 4 and HS year 3. On the surface it looks all fine & dandy as they've placed respectable in invites and such. Ohio has 3 divisions and 3 phases in their tournament, with the 3rd being state. The HS has had an individual compete in the 2nd phase all 3 years in the smallest division. However this year's Jr stud is contemplating not going out next year due to the HS coach's antics at practice. Orhers that got as far may not either. The MS coach does fine, but he doesn't ever speak up when needed. He has literally one part time helper to coach which brings safety & procedure issues. Then our club issues. HS coach ran off a great Bellmont wrestler that took over the club when HS/MS started. I was just a parent helper that suddenly became club head coach. I wrestled in youth and stopped and then came back late in my HS days at AC. Id be on the list of their worst wrestlers if they have one. I also became the leader right before practices started. Add to the fact I had 1 or 2 people decide to help my first year (last year) with little to no wrestling experience or background. Luckily my stepson was also doing club at AC, so I got our kids into their Friday night fights and learned from Adams, Wells, & Jay's best. HS coach was dead against all of it. This year I replicated last year with more coaching help with at least 1 or 2 guys also with wrestling knowledge. Another negative is the HS, MS, & club share the same mat that is the clubs. Club also can't use the MS/HS wrestling room bc we aren't a school team.

[Galagore]

10 hours ago, crosstownrivals said:

How do you want to class the sport? 
By size of school? Number of kids on a team? Private and Parochial own state series? Once you start classing the sport it opens up another can of worms.
Do schools get to pick what class they are in? ( ie Mater Dei 2A but wants to wrestle 4a) what about a school like East Chicago central 4A but only has 15 kids on the team do they get to wrestle down. Where do you draw the lines? Can we run it like professional soccer leagues? Top 20 schools each year stay in that class bottom 4 get regulated down a class? Lots of scenarios!!!!  
If the IHSAA makes wrestling into classes, do we have to class all sports (Title IX).

The following sports would have to be classed:

Tennis

Track and Field

Cross Country 

Swimming and Diving

Gymnastics

Girls Wrestling (soon to be)

 

All of these sports have the same arguments as well. 

 

 

Class based on size, like every other sport. Whatever the other sports use as protocol for moving up a class, use that rule. Stick with the way it has been done in the other sports and no worm cans need to have their seal broken.

 

And yes, as a former track coach, former (possibly upcoming...) cross country coach, and as our girls wrestling coach, I say class all sports in which we are holding a state tournament.

[Galagore]

10 hours ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

@Galagore You seem to be on a better path than the situation I became involved in just across the border in Ohio. The school is major basketball and most of the basketball supporters would love to kill off the wrestling program in its infancy. The youth club was started by the current HS head coach and is maybe 6 to 8 years tops. The MS program just finished year 4 and HS year 3. On the surface it looks all fine & dandy as they've placed respectable in invites and such. Ohio has 3 divisions and 3 phases in their tournament, with the 3rd being state. The HS has had an individual compete in the 2nd phase all 3 years in the smallest division. However this year's Jr stud is contemplating not going out next year due to the HS coach's antics at practice. Orhers that got as far may not either. The MS coach does fine, but he doesn't ever speak up when needed. He has literally one part time helper to coach which brings safety & procedure issues. Then our club issues. HS coach ran off a great Bellmont wrestler that took over the club when HS/MS started. I was just a parent helper that suddenly became club head coach. I wrestled in youth and stopped and then came back late in my HS days at AC. Id be on the list of their worst wrestlers if they have one. I also became the leader right before practices started. Add to the fact I had 1 or 2 people decide to help my first year (last year) with little to no wrestling experience or background. Luckily my stepson was also doing club at AC, so I got our kids into their Friday night fights and learned from Adams, Wells, & Jay's best. HS coach was dead against all of it. This year I replicated last year with more coaching help with at least 1 or 2 guys also with wrestling knowledge. Another negative is the HS, MS, & club share the same mat that is the clubs. Club also can't use the MS/HS wrestling room bc we aren't a school team.

 

Yeah, that's rough. Honestly, right now our main focus is trying to get as many kids as possible experience with the sport. Even if we never are very good, wrestling teaches lessons that other sports don't...so if we can get even a season in for some of these kids, we feel like the value added to their lives is tremendous.

[ReformedPoster]

If the IHSAA classed the sport it would be solely based on enrollment, just like every other sport.  I'm sure they would implement the success factor like the other sports as well.  So I would assume that every school would be in their enrollment class to start with and then be moved around based on success.  

[Y2CJ41]

16 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

If the IHSAA classed the sport it would be solely based on enrollment, just like every other sport.  I'm sure they would implement the success factor like the other sports as well.  So I would assume that every school would be in their enrollment class to start with and then be moved around based on success.  

How would they implement success factor in individual sports? Would it be based on their team success? I wonder if this is a reason they have in their back pocket on why they don't want to class individual sports.

[indypharmd]

11 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

How would they implement success factor in individual sports? Would it be based on their team success? I wonder if this is a reason they have in their back pocket on why they don't want to class individual sports.

i could imagine the smaller enrollment schools really being upset competing with Chatard, Roncalli, Cathedral and Mater Dei when the intent was to get rid of a power differential based upon enrollment... 

[Coach Brobst]

12 minutes ago, indypharmd said:

i could imagine the smaller enrollment schools really being upset competing with Chatard, Roncalli, Cathedral and Mater Dei when the intent was to get rid of a power differential based upon enrollment... 

If we do just 2 classes, only Mater Dei would be in the first class, maybe Chatard. Roncalli and Cathedral would still be in the 2A class. Even in classed sports, teams can choose to bump up and I would assume Mater Dei would do just that as well.

[Galagore]

11 minutes ago, indypharmd said:

i could imagine the smaller enrollment schools really being upset competing with Chatard, Roncalli, Cathedral and Mater Dei when the intent was to get rid of a power differential based upon enrollment... 

 

Are the smaller enrollment schools upset about competing against these schools in football, basketball, etc?

[indypharmd]

1 hour ago, Galagore said:

 

Are the smaller enrollment schools upset about competing against these schools in football, basketball, etc?

If you would read the post that may reply was in response to, it was discussing not applying success factors to individual sports but going straight enrollment... I have heard complaints when Cathedral and Roncalli were dropped previously back to the enrollment class or the one above...

 

The IHSWCA team state has definitely become more equitable with the addition of the 4A class vs having just 3...

[Galagore]

I did read the post, my question was genuine, not rhetorical. Thank you for answering it.

 

Are these schools upset because Cathedral and Roncalli are too good or because they are private? If it is because they are too good, then that is probably a "draw the line somewhere" situation. If it is because they are private, then that is a completely separate issue that may not have a viable solution.

 

It seems like you may be working around to an argument something like, "Well, people will complain no matter what, so why change it?" Is that accurate, or am I misunderstanding?

[ghughes1974]

Thanks for mentioning the 1A/2A Individual Wrestling State Championship that is hosted at Southmont.  We had our second “small school” state tournament this year.  The tournament is currently a post season invitational to wrestlers who attend 1A and 2A schools (per IHSWCA criteria used for the dual team state tournament).  This means it is open to wrestlers from roughly 200 of Indiana’s 300 schools that offer wrestling. The 1A/2A cut off is enrollment of ~1000 and below. 

 

The tournament grew by 26% over last year.  We had wrestlers attend from roughly 60 schools.  We added a girls division this year. 

 

The tournament is competitive tournament.  We have anywhere from 5-10 semi-state qualifiers in each bracket.  We had 7 IHSAA state qualifiers from small schools attend.  4 of them won their bracket, 2 placed 3^rd and 1 placed 5^th. 

 

The goal of the tournament is to help small school wrestling programs grow and be successful. The concept is simple…have a tournament that’s more FUN for small school wrestlers.  It’s FUN to compete on a level playing field.  It’s FUN to have a better chance at achieving recognition for the work they put into wrestling.  It’s FUN to wrestle against small schools from other parts of the state that we don’t normally see.  For me as a coach, it is FUN to have success to take home to our school and community.  When I had an IHSAA state champ a few years ago, wrestling was all the buzz at our school and my youth program tripled in size.  That was FUN…I like the idea of that being something that happens more often than once in my career.   

 

It is uncommon for a state to not to offer a state wrestling tournament to its small school wrestlers.  I understand Indiana is one of only three states that doesn’t.  We’ve had our second tournament now and I believe it has been a big positive. 

 

I appreciate the debate on class wrestling.  If you’re against classing, consider this.  If there’s one thing I think everyone would agree on it is that the wrestling academies in Indiana are a highly effective way for wrestlers to get better.  The concept of the academy is to put a bunch of hammers in the same room and let them go at it…and they get better from it.  When I wrestled in high school in Illinois, I went to a large school and that’s what we had…a room full of state champs, placers and qualifiers.  I had good coaches, but the opportunity to bang away against guys at that level everyday was a HUGE part of what made me a good wrestler. 

 

Large schools have the numbers to more consistently create this type of environment (academy level training within their own programs during the regular season).  Its certainly not automatic for large school, but then compare that to a small school like mine (enrollment 225), it’s damn near impossible to create that environment.  That’s the reason I believe wrestling should be classed.  I don’t care how hard I work as a coach, large schools will always have a huge advantage because of the training environments they can create.    

 

And then there’s the drawback of not classing…mainly loss of participation at small schools.  My greatest challenge has been keeping newer wrestlers engaged in the sport. My new guys consistently wash out after they see our sectional which is stacked full of large schools and top programs.  They don’t stick with wrestling when they come to the conclusion they have no chance of having success.  And when the new guys wash out, then my more committed guys don’t have anyone to train with.  They then fall short of their potential, vicious cycle.     

 

I’m an advocate of classing wrestling because of the reasons and experiences noted above.  But no matter what side of the fence you’re on, if you’re a coach of a small school, I hope you bring your guys to a future 1A/2A state wrestling tournament.  I take the results of the tournament home to our community with the same level of importance and recognition as the IHSAA tournament.  Most people in our community know next to nothing about wrestling.  They don't even know its not classed.  The news of success at 1A/2A state is big for our guys.  Next year, I have more incoming freshman wrestlers than ever before.  I think the tournament is helping us grow.  But if nothing else, the experience of 1A/2A state is FUN!

 

 

If you would like more information about the 1A/2A state wrestling tournament, please contact me at greg@continuumgames.com or 317-753-7786.

 

Coach Hughes

Lutheran Wrestling

[Sawyer Miller]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:49 PM, RHendricks9 said:

The best linebacker (John Purdy) and best running back (Luke Hansen) were both state placers. You don’t have to be a single sport athlete to be successful

You love using outliers to try and prove a point and it’s not a good way to persuade people.
 

 

[indypharmd]

8 hours ago, Play Wrestler said:

You love using outliers to try and prove a point and it’s not a good way to persuade people.
 

 

And add one other... Leighton Jones (IFCA OL of the Year)

[Coach Brobst]

4 minutes ago, indypharmd said:

And add one other... Leighton Jones (IFCA OL of the Year)

 

All three of those guys, Leighton, Luke, and John are freak athletes. We coaches all know that football and wrestling cross over a ton!

 

I'd love to see the statistics on how many 138-160 pounders that qualified for state played football or another sport this year though.

 

Even better, would love to know how many 106-132 pounders did another sport.

 

The further down the weight goes, the less options kids have to be involved in sports and find success. What other sports is a 105 pound kid at HSE or Brownsburg going to do and be a contributor? The options are limited, you could even argue wrestling is the ONLY one. These kids can choose to just wrestle at our schools. They usually have run CC or play tennis and baseball or track at a really small school.

 

My hypothesis is that in the light weights, it's less than 10% of state qualifiers that do another sport, in the middle weights, you may bump to 25%-35%, with the heavier weights being over 50% for certain, maybe even more than 75%.