Potential Big Changes in Indiana Wrestling

[MattM]

22 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

I wonder if there is a push for classing girls swimming?

Class AA - Carmel 

Class A - Everyone else. 

[GenHeavyHandz]

1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said:

I'm well aware of Jaylon Smith's background and Luers' success.  The point is, he still played at a 2A school.  Whether or not you think it is good comparison doesn't change the facts.

I read your rebuttal.  My point is your point doesn't hold water when examining the facts.   Nice attempt but my statement was sound and based on facts.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by GenHeavyHandz
Clarification

[dstruck]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:26 PM, Y2CJ41 said:

Since you don't want to do your own homework.

 

The average number of boys basketball players from 1993-1997(five years before class basketball) was 13,300 for the state of Indiana. The NFHS didn't do surveys in 2020 or 2021, so from 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2022 the average number of basketball players is 10,828. That is a drop of 2,468 athletes or 18.5%.

 

The average number of wrestlers from 1993-1997 was 8,813 for the state of Indiana. The NFHS didn't do surveys in 2020 or 2021, so from 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2022 the average number of wrestlers is 6,494. That is a drop of 2,319 athletes or 26.3%.

 

Overall in that time period just under 1 million more kids are participating in athletics throughout the country.

 

Here is my work

 

So, both wrestling and basketball numbers dropped, but a million more kids are playing sports.  So, either other sports grew, or more sports are offered (lacrosse, field hockey, mens vball, etc..)  

 

what ya thinking on that?

 

super interesting stats!  

[BrodyHardcastle]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:21 AM, indypharmd said:

A few thoughts...

 

I grew up in Wabash County and my wife in Fulton County and have raised my family in Purplesburg. We chose not move back north after college because of job opportunities and when we had kids, the educational opportunities that exist in Brownsburg Community School Corporation vs. what the wife and I had in the late 80's up north. Some of the student athletes who attended Brownsburg HS when their siblings attended an other HCC rival have spoken volumes about how those opportunities in educaton were best for those kids...

 

Almost every single football visit my son took his junior year, the football staff spoke to him/us about wrestling almost more than football in all cases. They recognize the grind, discipline, etc. it takes to be an elite wrestler while being a P5 football recruit. He visited multiple footballs camps and even met the Red Cobra contingent at an exit in Iowa City following a football camp to catch a ride to Lincoln, NE for a week of wrestling camp during summer football workouts...

 

While being a multi sport athlete, you have to continue to train for wrestling while practicing football, track, baseball, CC, etc. You can't just pick it up in season... That requires A LOT of sacrifice of time, effort, etc.

• How many are willing to do that?
• How many coaches of those other sports are willing to at least look the other way while the wrestler still trains?
• And if the coach doesn't like it, are the parents and student athlete willing to continue with their plan/goals? (experienced this)

One of my son's future #SWARM23 classmates is a guy some may have heard of... Name is Ben Kueter - 4x Iowa State Champ, U20 World Champion, etc. He drives from Iowa City to Sebolt's Academy a few times a week. Check the distance if interested... And he plays baseball. Iowa's high school association has it set so that kids can do FOUR (4) sports seasons - as track and field is in the spring and baseball follows it into the summer and some of their best athletes are 3 or 4 sport kids and those coaches acknowledge that sometimes you need to let those elite athletes participate/train concurrently. Another walk-on classmate played basketball for his high school and wrestled AND made their state tournament! Another young man you will hear more about in the future, Aaron Graves - gatorade player of the year, 1000 career basketball points and 4th at state in wrestling - he will be a B1G DL of the year and likely a 1st rd draft pick in the future.

 

Some would say this is easy for someone from Purplesburg to say, but the training  he did consisted of  private sessions with C-Red outside of normal team or academy practices because of other time committments...

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is something along the lines of if you want something bad enough, are you willing to put the time and sacrifices into trying to achieve it...?

 

Class wrestling probably would help a few things - maybe shortening up the tournament series length by a week or two, shortening distances for driving to the regional/ss weekend, too. 

Wabash, Southwood or Northfield?

Edited March 7, 2023 by bigballerb

[bomber_bob]

On 3/3/2023 at 4:32 PM, Galagore said:

A few points in this post...

 

A. My argument has never been about participation. It has been about fairness. Again, small schools are playing a different game. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand, give me the sad face emoji, etc. When kids from two kinds of schools are not starting at the same line, it is not fair to expect them to finish at the same line. And it is true that "life isn't fair." However, something tells me that wrestling is hard enough, and that there will be enough bad calls, bad draws, etc. that kids can still learn that lesson in a classed wrestling tournament.

 

B. The participation in basketball (classed) dropped by less than the participation in wrestling (not classed) during the time frame observed. So maybe it won't grow numbers, but maybe it will stem the tide a little while we figure some other things out.

 

C. Good to have you back, @UncleJimmy. It just wasn't the same without you.

Do all 4A schools start at the same line? 

 

If we made the tournament more fair, but we lost 10-15% of our participants, would that be an acceptable trade-off? 

[Galagore]

30 minutes ago, bomber_bob said:

Do all 4A schools start at the same line? 

 

If we made the tournament more fair, but we lost 10-15% of our participants, would that be an acceptable trade-off? 

 

Based on school size (which is the point I am attacking), yes, they do.

 

No, it would not.

 

If we did not class the tournament, and we lost 10 small school programs, would that be an acceptable trade-off?

Edited March 7, 2023 by Galagore

[Wrestling Scholar]

1 hour ago, dstruck said:

 

So, both wrestling and basketball numbers dropped, but a million more kids are playing sports.  So, either other sports grew, or more sports are offered (lacrosse, field hockey, mens vball, etc..)  

 

what ya thinking on that?

 

super interesting stats!  

The thing that doesn't make sense is that  there's a 2500 decrease in basketball players.  I find hard to believe!!!!!!  Has anybody ever heard of basketball program being dropped in Indiana or even across the country.   Have you heard of schools eliminating JV and freshman basketball teams if they had them.  In basketball at the high school level, there's only so many spots available.   Unlike wrestling,  a lot kids don't make the team.   So if a kid doesn't want participate,  there is always kid to step and replace him.  I think that would keep participation constant. 

 

Ill even argue  that in the 2020s, there are more schools in Indiana and thus we have more basketball programs than in the 1993-to 1997 creating more participation    My hypothesis,  is that this a statistical measurement change, and that we don't have a participation level drop.   I'm open and curious to theories.

 

I do think new sports like mens volleyball, lacrosse, and additions of soccer could hurt some other sports.         

[Y2CJ41]

12 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

The thing that doesn't make sense is that  there's a 2500 decrease in basketball players.  I find hard to believe!!!!!!  Has anybody ever heard of basketball program being dropped in Indiana or even across the country.   Have you heard of schools eliminating JV and freshman basketball teams if they had them.  In basketball at the high school level, there's only so many spots available.   Unlike wrestling,  a lot kids don't make the team.   So if a kid doesn't want participate,  there is always kid to step and replace him.  I think that would keep participation constant. 

 

Ill even argue  that in the 2020s, there are more schools in Indiana and thus we have more basketball programs than in the 1993-to 1997 creating more participation    My hypothesis,  is that this a statistical measurement change, and that we don't have a participation level drop.   I'm open and curious to theories.

 

I do think new sports like mens volleyball, lacrosse, and additions of soccer could hurt some other sports.         

Teams aren't dropping their basketball programs, but they are dropping freshman/C team events. Schools are having a harder time filling full freshman/C team squads in sports like basketball and football.

 

According to those stats I pulled there were 382 schools with basketball in 1997 and 408 in 2022.

[Galagore]

My hypothesis:

 

AAU, ISWA, Travel softball, baseball, soccer, volleyball, etc. are hurting overall numbers. Kids who are "ok" don't really want to play because they know that if they don't want to go all-out, they won't be able to compete much. New sports are more intriguing because the general population hasn't started doing all of the club-like stuff in those sports.

 

You can see it in girls wrestling...yes, there are ladies that go at it year-round and are becoming elite. However, as a population, it is reasonably likely that a work-a-day Jane in girls wrestling who busts her tail in-season, gives her full attention to her fall and spring sports in-season, and lifts in the summer will see high levels success. The same cannot be said for the same work-a-day Joe in boys wrestling.

[ReformedPoster]

2 hours ago, Galagore said:

My hypothesis:

 

AAU, ISWA, Travel softball, baseball, soccer, volleyball, etc. are hurting overall numbers. Kids who are "ok" don't really want to play because they know that if they don't want to go all-out, they won't be able to compete much. New sports are more intriguing because the general population hasn't started doing all of the club-like stuff in those sports.

 

You can see it in girls wrestling...yes, there are ladies that go at it year-round and are becoming elite. However, as a population, it is reasonably likely that a work-a-day Jane in girls wrestling who busts her tail in-season, gives her full attention to her fall and spring sports in-season, and lifts in the summer will see high levels success. The same cannot be said for the same work-a-day Joe in boys wrestling.

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Specialization is likely driving down numbers.  I know multiple kids that played multiple sports through 8th grade and then decided to specialize in their sport of choice starting in 9th grade.  I believe this is causing the overall drop in numbers

[Y2CJ41]

4 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Specialization is likely driving down numbers.  I know multiple kids that played multiple sports through 8th grade and then decided to specialize in their sport of choice starting in 9th grade.  I believe this is causing the overall drop in numbers

In my experience at a big school we had many freshmen that played multiple sports, mostly football. After their freshmen year about 75% of them went to one sport only.

[Galagore]

It truly is sad. Not only is it turning down overall participation, it is turning what used to be a fun, fond memory of childhood into a job. Or maybe something obscure that you did as a child. We didn't even get fully exposed to organized sports besides baseball and soccer until 6th grade. And then, baseball and soccer were pretty much: Play the park league for a couple months, select an all-start team that plays for a few weeks, then move on with your life until next spring/summer. You played football because you got enough people together to get even teams. You played basketball because there was a hoop behind the elementary school. You figured it out on the fly and it was fun. That does not happen for kids any more. Not much, anyway. If someone shows aptitude, they are shoved camp brochures, travel league schedules, and personal coaches. No matter how good we get at any of them, they are still just games for 99.999% of the population. We can't pay everyone to play sports and we can't let everyone represent our country in diplomatic sporting events.

 

Wow, that ended up being about four times longer than expected. If you read to the end, thank you. I am man enough to admit it was written more for my benefit than anyone else's.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Galagore
spelling

[ReformedPoster]

1 hour ago, Galagore said:

It truly is sad. Not only is it turning down overall participation, it is turning what used to be a fun, fond memory of childhood into a job. Or maybe something obscure that you did as a child. We didn't even get fully exposed to organized sports besides baseball and soccer until 6th grade. And then, baseball and soccer were pretty much: Play the park league for a couple months, select an all-start team that plays for a few weeks, then move on with your life until next spring/summer. You played football because you got enough people together to get even teams. You played basketball because there was a hoop behind the elementary school. You figured it out on the fly and it was fun. That does not happen for kids any more. Not much, anyway. If someone shows aptitude, they are shoved camp brochures, travel league schedules, and personal coaches. No matter how good we get at any of them, they are still just games for 99.999% of the population. We can't pay everyone to play sports and we can't let everyone represent our country in diplomatic sporting events.

 

Wow, that ended up being about four times longer than expected. If you read to the end, thank you. I am man enough to admit it was written more for my benefit than anyone else's.

opportunity for those things at a young age depends on where you live.  I grew up in the 80's, started HS in the fall of '88.  I played in organized baseball and soccer leagues starting in Kindergarten.  I first stepped on a wrestling mat in first grade (MD feeder league).  Didn't play organized basketball until 5th grade (but there were some biddy ball leagues around town that started 2nd or 3rd grade I think.  Evansville Junior Football League has been around forever and you could start in 2nd grade.  So it wasn't all sandlots and driveway basketball courts back in the day.

[Galagore]

Nope, not all of it. Just like there are still some kids who roam the playgrounds looking to just “play” still today. However, the generic kid on the block had a lot better chance of starting varsity on any given team via hard work in season (etc to all of the rest I said earlier) in 1983 and 1993 than in 2023. 

[Galagore]

What was opportunity in 1983 and 1993 is necessity in 2023. 

[Galagore]

And (my hypothesis is) that is why not as many kids choose to participate. 

[indypharmd]

8 hours ago, bigballerb said:

Wabash, Southwood or Northfield?

SHS

[UncleJimmy]

23 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

The thing that doesn't make sense is that  there's a 2500 decrease in basketball players.  I find hard to believe!!!!!!  Has anybody ever heard of basketball program being dropped in Indiana or even across the country.   Have you heard of schools eliminating JV and freshman basketball teams if they had them.  In basketball at the high school level, there's only so many spots available.   Unlike wrestling,  a lot kids don't make the team.   So if a kid doesn't want participate,  there is always kid to step and replace him.  I think that would keep participation constant. 

 

Ill even argue  that in the 2020s, there are more schools in Indiana and thus we have more basketball programs than in the 1993-to 1997 creating more participation    My hypothesis,  is that this a statistical measurement change, and that we don't have a participation level drop.   I'm open and curious to theories.

 

I do think new sports like mens volleyball, lacrosse, and additions of soccer could hurt some other sports.         

I have seen several notifications on the Twitter machine this past hoop season that some (not many, but more than you would expect) JV and especially freshman games have been cancelled due to low numbers here in the NorthLands. Only thing I can surmise is that, similar to this thread discussion, the kids/parents see that Little Johnny just isn't as good as the others and doesn't see a future and/or doesn't want to make the time commitment to getting better and goes back to the PS5. 

 

Yes, I would also assume there are more hoop "programs" but let's be honest, how many of those new programs rosters are made up of kids that would have been on the JV/freshman teams of powerhouse teams? Little Johnny on the JV team as a Junior? Let's move to "insert small/parochial/charter school" here so he can get that varsity letter and make the past 8-10 years of "travel ball" worth it! So it's not like the numbers grow...they just move somewhere they can play varsity and thus you have forfeits at other schools that you would normally not see. Thus watering down the bigger/tradition rich schools moreso than normal and less kids to "step in to replace them" as you state. They don't step in...they step out, to another school. 

 

Just a counter theory to your hypothesis. 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by UncleJimmy

[julio]

I saw a recent documentary that talked about travel ball and elite camps ruining high school sports.  It mostly talked about how these endeavors were strictly money making machines and produce few results by the number of participants.  It goes on and says that when the kids go to these it is about trying to show what you got instead of trying to become a better athlete.  Mostly talked about so called team sports, baseball, football, basketball.

 

[crosstownrivals]

Im going to throw some thoughts out and you can all take it with a grain of salt. I recently stepped away from the high school after 15 years of coaching at a high level. I was roped into coming and helping at the Junior High I teach at. I was willing to give it a shot since it was only a nine week commitment and only one Saturday ( which made my wife happy, and my pickleball game improve tremendously)!!!!!! 

My first season, was last year and we were pretty lucky to get our numbers at the Junior High back up to around 45-50 kids a year after COVID (COVID year we only had 25 kids). We were really looking to build and develop some of our 6-7th graders that had success at the conference last year. When we had our call out meeting we had close to 90 6-8th grade boys and girls show up and we were very excited about the numbers. The closer we got to the start of the season kids decided that they couldn't commit for the following reasons:

1: Swimming- 3-5 days a week from 5-730pm

2. Indoor Travel Baseball 3 days a week from 6-9pm

3.  Travel Hockey 2-3 nights a week

4. E-sports club after school 3 days a week

5. Ski Club 2 nights a week

6. AAU Basketball

 

 We lost 15-20 right off the bat and six of our kids were very talented but had other commitments. We ended up with around 55 kids the first couple of weeks, but as we continued we started to lose 2-3 a week because practice was "too hard" or " didn't like losing" "couldn't hit the reset button and start over". We just finished our season yesterday with  JV Conference tournament were kids got to see some success with peers at their own level. 

 

We are in a tough sport, with a society of kids that would rather commit to one sport instead of playing multiple sports like most of us in our 40s-and up did. Football/Soccer/ cross Country in the fall, wrestling in the winter, baseball/ track in the spring. We are now seeing so many kids not wanting to work hard, focusing on one sport, or paying thousands of dollars to say they are on a travel whatever sport. 

 

What happened with being a kid and playing sports with their friends and building teams based on that. 

 

 

[UncleJimmy]

Bless you for your service, @crosstownrivals . Let the record show I would not be involved in this sport without this man, for which I thank you. 

 

The thread being about growing the sport, let's connect the dots. Crosstown works at just one of three feeder schools in a large school corp that has wrestling tradition and success. He lost 15 kids that had an initial interest and most likely some athletic skill, at his one jr high. So, assume that the other two jr high feeder schools lost the same or similar number due to the same reasons. That's 40-50 kids in one school corp. That's about 3, maybe 4, teams of Fighting @Galagores that we are trying to "grow" by having class wrestling. One might say it would be better and/or more beneficial to make the sport "cool" and try to figure something out to keep these kids. I get the tired classing argument, but as we've seen statistically with hoops...that doesn't seem to be the panacea we  class supporters think? I do think that MMA/UFC might have a positive impact on the coolness factor but maybe isn't promoted in the manner needed? I dunno...I just think classing isn't the growth mechanism we think and has been proven thru hoops. 

[patriotfan]

3 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said:

I do think that MMA/UFC might have a positive impact on the coolness factor but maybe isn't promoted in the manner needed?

One of our coaches trains an active, currently signed UFC fighter and I don’t think we’ve seen any increase in numbers from it - kids who are interested seem to gravitate to the local boxing clubs instead

 

Now I do think the two piece uniforms helped

[Galagore]

On 3/3/2023 at 5:32 PM, Galagore said:

A few points in this post...

 

A. My argument has never been about participation. It has been about fairness. Again, small schools are playing a different game. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand, give me the sad face emoji, etc. When kids from two kinds of schools are not starting at the same line, it is not fair to expect them to finish at the same line. And it is true that "life isn't fair." However, something tells me that wrestling is hard enough, and that there will be enough bad calls, bad draws, etc. that kids can still learn that lesson in a classed wrestling tournament.

 

B. The participation in basketball (classed) dropped by less than the participation in wrestling (not classed) during the time frame observed. So maybe it won't grow numbers, but maybe it will stem the tide a little while we figure some other things out.

 

C. Good to have you back, @UncleJimmy. It just wasn't the same without you.

 

@UncleJimmy, Did you not read the very post that drew you into this thread? To me, it's mostly about fairness. Just because "life isn't fair" doesn't mean that we shouldn't make fairness a goal. Excellence isn't attainable for everyone, but that doesn't stop us from making it a goal.

 

You point is valid. I was just talking to my school neighbor about the fact that kids don't play sports because they're not as fun (cool would be an appropriate adjective as well) as whatever the kids are currently doing.

[crosstownrivals]

I’m trying to rebuild the feeder schools. Trying to get kids excited about the sport. I had my 8th graders last year help design our new mat and this years 8th graders help design the singlets. But it is hard to compete with kids having all these other commitments. We can’t offer days out of school to travel the country for baseball and hockey tournaments. Can’t force kids to wrestle and learn how to take some tough losses when they can hit the reset button in esports club. 
this sports about hard work it doesn’t matter what size of school you go to, you go out and find opportunities to make yourself better. You can ask @UncleJimmypersonally how many days a week I met with a group of 6-8 7th-8th graders and the work they put in to be very successful team they grew into. State champions 2015! 
it’s about how much work you want to put into into. Sorry @Galagore classes is only going to water down Indiana wrestling! 

[Galagore]

9 minutes ago, crosstownrivals said:

I’m trying to rebuild the feeder schools. Trying to get kids excited about the sport. I had my 8th graders last year help design our new mat and this years 8th graders help design the singlets. But it is hard to compete with kids having all these other commitments. We can’t offer days out of school to travel the country for baseball and hockey tournaments. Can’t force kids to wrestle and learn how to take some tough losses when they can hit the reset button in esports club. 
this sports about hard work it doesn’t matter what size of school you go to, you go out and find opportunities to make yourself better. You can ask @UncleJimmypersonally how many days a week I met with a group of 6-8 7th-8th graders and the work they put in to be very successful team they grew into. State champions 2015! 
it’s about how much work you want to put into into. Sorry @Galagore classes is only going to water down Indiana wrestling! 

 

First, I must say, hat is a really cool mat.

 

I very much disagree about class wrestling. Again, when our kids have to choose, we don't lose numbers, we don't lose quality, we lose programs.

 

Big schools and small schools aren't playing the same game. If you truly believe that a kid a Culver Community can put in an equitable amount of effort compared to a kid at Penn and consistently expect to yield the same results, then you do not know what it is like to be a kid from Culver Community. Or Caston or Triton or.....you get the idea.

 

I know there are exceptions. I coached two of them. However, that is exactly what they are - exceptions to the rule. 

 

If I am not mistaken, you and I were talking to one of the Culver Academy coaches at regional this year. It would be interesting for you to get his perspective, as he has coached in your program and has coached in ours.