Who will this affect???

[mdtodd]

https://t.co/dxc5OtXz6P
 

First, this is rhetorical. No need to start rambling off names of kids we all already know are supposed to be juniors and are freshman/sophomores this year. 
 

But, I do know this has been brought to the ISHAAs attention and they are interested in a similar policy in the future. When? Who knows! 
 

This has been discussed in other posts. So we do know it’s happening here in the Hoosier state. How much do you think this affects some of our younger kids success locally? How much do we think this starts to affect power house states who are known for this(OH,PA)?? Do we see them start to slide? 
 

I’d say we can say goodbye to 3x MS state champs. I also remember Y2 posting a stat a few years back about freshman making it to state above 126/132. (Slim Pickens) So it will be very interesting to see how this starts to affect the wresting landscape. 
 

PA is not backdating this ruling just 8th graders moving forward. Any chance the IHSAA back dates and kids lose Jr/Sr years? Or includes all MS years(6th/7th/8th)?

 

This should get interesting across the board. 
 

 

[MattM]

If I’m reading this right the PA rule just affects 8th grade.  Which to me then would mean some parents/kids will just take the same step in 7th grade instead.

 

I think it would curb the issue a lot better to have it say anytime in MS (7-8, really even 6th) when being held back was at the request of parents rather than a school decision based on being majorly behind on grade level skills (not just lack effort causing poor grades).  Also, they may consider putting a watch on any kid pulled from regular school and going with the “grey area” homeschool for a few years.  Those programs don’t always advance grades at the same time period as regular schools so could be a possible loop hole in this rule. Finally, I’m not sure if there was a thought on age consideration here but most kids without a serious cognitive issue hindering their learning ability likely shouldn’t be entering their freshman year two ages above the average freshman age.  

 

Holding a kid back in elementary due behavioral based maturity issues and/or educational growth concerns does occur occasionally. But those are   mostly over the students future educational needs which the school likely has also noted, as well.  That a different situation to me than a parent waiting until MS to hold a child back and there is no major learning based concerns the school (again skill ability not lack of effort). 

 

And sure you may see a few over zealous elementary parents still try to gain an athletic advantage by holding their kid back in 5th grade due to athletics, but not near to the extent we are starting to see as they go through MS. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by MattM

[tonyzirkle]

Penn State’s RBY may be the most prominent example of a kid doing two 8th grade years then becoming a 4x high school champ. 
 

This is another example of government officials attacking a symptom instead of a root cause. The root problem is the ridiculously rising cost of a public college education besides crime, of course. 
 

It’s bad enough parents feel they have to spend $300,000 plus on a house to get out of a high crime neighborhood. Then they get hit with $5,000 a year in property taxes. Expecting them to pay $5,700 a semester for room and board plus another $5,000 a semester for tuition, or more, plus crazy book fees makes it understandable why so many parents push their kids to seek an athletic scholarship. 

 

After listening to a bunch of travel national club volleyball parents who seemed at times more focused on their kid getting a scholarship than their kid herself, I’ve come to the conclusion that for most, high school sports should be more about keeping your kids too busy to become drug addicts or pregnant teens than seeking a scholarship. Trying to get them to stop volleyball when COVID hit was like pulling teeth, and listening to all their attempts to keep it going so they could pursue scholarships or keep their clubs running left me with the impression that USA VB cared about as much about those girls as USA Gymnastics did a few years back. 
 

By the time you add up all the expenses for camps, clinics, hotels, gas, food, medical bills for injuries, private school for a 2nd 8th grade year, etc., many would be better off just taking a gap year after high school and working while living at home to save $ instead of red shirting a 2nd 8th grade year. Plus having 19 year olds in the same school as 14 year olds when the Romeo and Juliet laws only cover 4 years of protection is just asking for trouble. 

[Silence Dogood]

1 hour ago, tonyzirkle said:

Penn State’s RBY may be the most prominent example of a kid doing two 8th grade years then becoming a 4x high school champ. 
 

This is another example of government officials attacking a symptom instead of a root cause. The root problem is the ridiculously rising cost of a public college education besides crime, of course. 

I always had a hunch that was the real reason why RBY repeated the 8th grade. 

[tonyzirkle]

26 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

I always had a hunch that was the real reason why RBY repeated the 8th grade. 

If you watch the Flo video on his life, his grandpa references him being under weight as the reason. Based on the timing of Pennsylvania trying to stop a practice that has gone on for years now, his prominent example may have been one among many influencers. 
 

There used to be a 98 pound weight class for high school kids. Now that 106 is the lowest, it may make repeating 8th grade more tempting for some. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by tonyzirkle

[Disco]

Has been happening for years. All sports. Not as prevalent in years past as it is now. (Sports parents)   In Indiana more of this started with basketball and AAU stuff. 

[tangarrray]

Definitely against redshirting at any grade. Put a hard cap on the age. 19 years old at the time of your sports state finals is old enough. A 14 year old freshman should not be competing against a 19 year old junior or senior. There are far more scholarships available for academics , so maybe pushing kids harder in the classroom is a better answer than holding them back a year so they can compete against younger competition. I don’t buy the not emotionally ready excuse. These same kids who aren’t ready are also allowed to travel across the country competing often times alone. If they’re mature and ready to travel on their own then compete with your same age kids. I’d be curious to know this years state finalists ages , grades and gpa. Did the kids who redshirted improve or decline academically during their year off? How many redshirt kids actually get a scholarship? Actually graduate? After all if the real goal of redshirting is to gain a scholarship and not just a competitive advantage then what percentage receive them and also graduate? Definitely an interesting topic. 

[Y2CJ41]

57 minutes ago, tonyzirkle said:

If you watch the Flo video on his life, his grandpa references him being under weight as the reason. Based on the timing of Pennsylvania trying to stop a practice that has gone on for years now, his prominent example may have been one among many influencers. 
 

There used to be a 98 pound weight class for high school kids. Now that 106 is the lowest, it may make repeating 8th grade more tempting for some. 

I highly doubt a wrestling documentary had anything to do with the PIAA rule.

[HWTDAD]

1 hour ago, Silence Dogood said:

I always had a hunch that was the real reason why RBY repeated the 8th grade. 

I saw him in an interview say he held back twice

[MattM]

8 minutes ago, HWTDAD said:

I saw him in an interview say he held back twice

From the documentary I’d describe what his grandpa allowed him to do as more of a “gap year” before high school.  It worked in the end for his personal end goal, but what occurred wasn’t really the traditional path for even many of the elite MS athletes. 

[tonyzirkle]

2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I highly doubt a wrestling documentary had anything to do with the PIAA rule.

You’re right. I was thinking of his example, not the documentary, as being a factor, especially since that rule was probably debated long before this recent documentary was published, but you’re still right. I didn’t even know about the two years held back. That makes his case even more noteworthy. Has there been a national champ before RBY that repeated 8th grade?  Now that someone correctly pointed out this rule applies to all sports and not just wrestling, he probably wasn’t even in the top 100 factors, especially since he’s from Arizona. 
 

After being out of the sports loop for years, the first person I heard doing two 8th grade years was Drew Hughes. I remember being shocked wondering why anyone would do that. When 18, I was more than ready to get out of Dodge and be on my own and definitely would not have wanted to be in high school at 19. I can’t think of anyone who repeated 8th grade for sports in the 1980s. 
 

Then I found out how much the price of college expenses had risen, so now I understand. It’s a decision each family has to make for themselves based on their particular circumstances. 
 

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/wireStory/justice-thomas-wrote-crushing-weight-student-loans-97462629

Edited February 26, 2023 by tonyzirkle

[GenHeavyHandz]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I highly doubt a wrestling documentary had anything to do with the PIAA rule.

[Gasman]

5 hours ago, tonyzirkle said:

Penn State’s RBY may be the most prominent example of a kid doing two 8th grade years then becoming a 4x high school champ. 
 

This is another example of government officials attacking a symptom instead of a root cause. The root problem is the ridiculously rising cost of a public college education besides crime, of course. 
 

It’s bad enough parents feel they have to spend $300,000 plus on a house to get out of a high crime neighborhood. Then they get hit with $5,000 a year in property taxes. Expecting them to pay $5,700 a semester for room and board plus another $5,000 a semester for tuition, or more, plus crazy book fees makes it understandable why so many parents push their kids to seek an athletic scholarship. 

 

After listening to a bunch of travel national club volleyball parents who seemed at times more focused on their kid getting a scholarship than their kid herself, I’ve come to the conclusion that for most, high school sports should be more about keeping your kids too busy to become drug addicts or pregnant teens than seeking a scholarship. Trying to get them to stop volleyball when COVID hit was like pulling teeth, and listening to all their attempts to keep it going so they could pursue scholarships or keep their clubs running left me with the impression that USA VB cared about as much about those girls as USA Gymnastics did a few years back. 
 

By the time you add up all the expenses for camps, clinics, hotels, gas, food, medical bills for injuries, private school for a 2nd 8th grade year, etc., many would be better off just taking a gap year after high school and working while living at home to save $ instead of red shirting a 2nd 8th grade year. Plus having 19 year olds in the same school as 14 year olds when the Romeo and Juliet laws only cover 4 years of protection is just asking for trouble. 

The root cause is cost of education?? Really? You’re literally in a state where the cost of public university ( Purdue) hasn’t changed in 12+ years. I live in North Carolina and I have coworkers who are literally sending their children to Purdue because of the in state tuition is competitive with state college here.

 

Here is a real question for you- I spent nearly 100k in taxes last year and some of that goes to pay for UNC’s basketball stadium and Appalachian states volleyball nets. Why is the tax payer held responsible for recreational college sports that serve little purpose for bettering our society. 
 

No reason a kid couldn’t work from 14-18 and make 5-10k/ year before  college and be able to pay for at least a few years of school. To be able to play a sport is a free gift from society that we all should be grateful to be able to do. 

[Ahawkeye]

3 hours ago, tangarrray said:

Definitely against redshirting at any grade. Put a hard cap on the age. 19 years old at the time of your sports state finals is old enough. A 14 year old freshman should not be competing against a 19 year old junior or senior. There are far more scholarships available for academics , so maybe pushing kids harder in the classroom is a better answer than holding them back a year so they can compete against younger competition. I don’t buy the not emotionally ready excuse. These same kids who aren’t ready are also allowed to travel across the country competing often times alone. If they’re mature and ready to travel on their own then compete with your same age kids. I’d be curious to know this years state finalists ages , grades and gpa. Did the kids who redshirted improve or decline academically during their year off? How many redshirt kids actually get a scholarship? Actually graduate? After all if the real goal of redshirting is to gain a scholarship and not just a competitive advantage then what percentage receive them and also graduate? Definitely an interesting topic. 

I disagree with the 19yo cap at time of state finals. What about a kid held back in pre school. Zero intent from an athletic standpoint. Why punish that kid?

[tonyzirkle]

34 minutes ago, Ahawkeye said:

I disagree with the 19yo cap at time of state finals. What about a kid held back in pre school. Zero intent from an athletic standpoint. Why punish that kid?

You can be 19 and 364 days old at the time of your state finals is how I understand the present rule. That allows 1 but not 2 years of being held back for normal matriculation. Isaiah Steury, an immigrant cross country runner from Ethiopia, won cross country state in the fall at age 19 but couldn’t run track his senior year because he had turned 20. 
 

Correction. He won his junior year.
 

https://www.kpcnews.com/sports/latest/eveningstar/article_af4bf2b6-ef70-5858-9569-2075d502dec6.html

Edited February 26, 2023 by tonyzirkle
Inserted reference link

[Ahawkeye]

2 minutes ago, tonyzirkle said:

You can be 19 and 364 days old at the time of your state finals is how I understand the present rule. That allows 1 but not 2 years of being held back for normal matriculation. Isaiah Steury, an immigrant cross country runner from Ethiopia, won cross country state in the fall at age 19 but couldn’t run track his senior year because he had turned 20. 

I can go with that.

[Disco]

56 minutes ago, tonyzirkle said:

You can be 19 and 364 days old at the time of your state finals is how I understand the present rule. That allows 1 but not 2 years of being held back for normal matriculation. Isaiah Steury, an immigrant cross country runner from Ethiopia, won cross country state in the fall at age 19 but couldn’t run track his senior year because he had turned 20. 
 

Correction. He won his junior year.
 

https://www.kpcnews.com/sports/latest/eveningstar/article_af4bf2b6-ef70-5858-9569-2075d502dec6.html

 

53 minutes ago, Ahawkeye said:

I can go with that.

I finally figured it out! Let’s see , I was 17 at senior graduation,would be 18 the following July. No wonder ! I just thought I wasn’t any good. 

[HWTDAD]

1 hour ago, Ahawkeye said:

I disagree with the 19yo cap at time of state finals. What about a kid held back in pre school. Zero intent from an athletic standpoint. Why punish that kid?

LOL if you are 20 in the state finals you were held back multiple years. 20 year olds are men and should not be competing against children. You want a sophomore in college wrestling your 14 year old freshman?

[TeamGarcia]

PA has been cracking down on their HS and as far down as Middle Schools for past 2 years . Transfers, move ins and outs even outta of State  . Not surprised, Illinois just passed that HS kids can’t practice with College athletes anymore all year. All a matter of time other States do the same . We’ll see ? Idk. 

[tonyzirkle]

13 hours ago, Gasman said:

1. The root cause is cost of education?? Really? You’re literally in a state where the cost of public university ( Purdue) hasn’t changed in 12+ years. I live in North Carolina and I have coworkers who are literally sending their children to Purdue because of the in state tuition is competitive with state college here.

 

2. Here is a real question for you- I spent nearly 100k in taxes last year and some of that goes to pay for UNC’s basketball stadium and Appalachian states volleyball nets. Why is the tax payer held responsible for recreational college sports that serve little purpose for bettering our society. 
 

3. No reason a kid couldn’t work from 14-18 and make 5-10k/ year before  college and be able to pay for at least a few years of school. To be able to play a sport is a free gift from society that we all should be grateful to be able to do. 

1. Is there a better explanation for why parents have their kids do two 8th grade years for wrestling than improving their chances of getting a scholarship? 
 

Purdue tuition is cheaper than IU if you can get in, but tuition is maybe only 40% of total costs there. My daughter’s rent senior year to live near campus was over $900 a month, and you have to pay for all 12 months on a year lease. They are keeping only tuition costs frozen in part by admitting now 18.6% full paying international students, which would be fine, except 41.5% of the School of Engineering, a national security issue in my book, is now international. CP had a kid with a 4.2 get rejected for engineering recently, so he had to pay out of state tuition at Michigan. You might need above 4.0 to get into their nursing school now without really good SATs. One of my daughter’s sorority sisters said she got into nursing with a 3.9 and 1,260 SAT, but that was 5 years ago. 

 

2. $100,000 taxes paid probably indicates sufficient income to support a UNC education, but that’s far above the median Indiana family gross income which is $96,083 for a family of 4.  https://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/20220401/bci_data/median_income_table.htm
 

Agreed. I asked a few years ago why a McDonald’s sweet tea in Hamilton County cost $1.09 instead of $1.07 elsewhere and was told every county surrounding Indianapolis has a 2% additional sales tax to fund the Colt’s new stadium. I haven’t checked the veracity of that, but I’ll often eat before I pass through that area just to protest that tax. I can’t write on here what I observed with college basketball and football. 
 

3.  True. We worked all summers in the corn and bean fields from age 13 on. Times have changed. Minimum wage pay won’t be enough and things are more competitive now.
 

We were passing through a Plymouth area McDonald’s drive through a few years ago. The girl must have seen my Navy shirt and commented she was going to the Air Force Academy and was taking 6 AP courses. When my kids complained about their school work load, I would sometimes reference her in jest. 
 

Drake Buchanan had an almost 4.6 and he still wasn’t in the top 10 of his class. LaRocca has a 4.7. If those two earned $5-10k a year at minimum wage with all the time studying and wrestling they put in, I’d have to debate whether I was more impressed or worried.  
 

I made sacrifices and paid my son an allowance to study instead of work for minimum wage. If kids work, good luck getting them to save a high %. He got into Purdue via philosophy, but he had to bust his tail freshman year to get all As to transfer to neurobiology once he changed his mind. It took two semesters of all As to transfer from the Liberal Arts College to the College of Arts and Sciences bc he was denied after the first semester. We also heard about an older girl with a very good GPA who got rejected for physics then later got in via physics education. I doubt we’d have been successful going straight in via engineering.

Edited February 26, 2023 by tonyzirkle

[Ahawkeye]

9 hours ago, HWTDAD said:

LOL if you are 20 in the state finals you were held back multiple years. 20 year olds are men and should not be competing against children. You want a sophomore in college wrestling your 14 year old freshman?

I am not saying 20 yo should be competing, I'm saying a 19 yo that got held back prior to MS for other reasons than an athletic advantage should be able to compete.

 

 

[JORVILLE]

11 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

PA has been cracking down on their HS and as far down as Middle Schools for past 2 years . Transfers, move ins and outs even outta of State  . Not surprised, Illinois just passed that HS kids can’t practice with College athletes anymore all year. All a matter of time other States do the same . We’ll see ? Idk. 

That was false information 

[Y2CJ41]

3 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

I am not saying 20 yo should be competing, I'm saying a 19 yo that got held back prior to MS for other reasons than an athletic advantage should be able to compete.

 

 

If you turn 20 before the state finals you are not eligible to wrestle that season. If a kid turns 20 on March 15 they can play football and wrestle, but can't play baseball.

[Observing]

Do these middle school students actually repeat a grade or sit out a year? If they repeat, maybe they should pony up $11k for that extra year. 

[Brandon Sandefur]

If you're 19 or older during your senior year you're old for HS. .  . That means you're 17 at some point during your sophomore year. 

There are kids that are 14 and 15yrs old as freshmen that's a big physical and mental maturity gap