blueandgold Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) Two great programs both in the far left top and bottom corners of the state that gave us four of the greatest teams in Indiana history twenty years apart. Let’s do some math. Team State Series Scores for Evansville Mater Dei 2002 67-3 vs. Memorial (Regional Semifinal) 60-3 vs. Princeton (Regional Championship) 48-12 vs. Bloomington South (Semi-State Championship) 66-3 vs. New Castle (State Quarterfinal) 44-15 vs. Bellmont (State Semifinal) 49-12 vs. Perry Meridian (State Championship) Average Points Scored: 56 Average Points Allowed: 8 Average Points Scored (State Only): 53 Average Points Allowed (State Only): 10 2003 76-0 vs. Boonville (Regional Semifinal) 54-12 vs. Memorial (Regional Championship) 76-6 vs. Jasper (Semi-State Championship) 54-9 vs. Perry Meridian (State Quarterfinal) 48-11 vs. Bellmont (State Semifinal) 42-23 vs. Griffith (State Championship) Average Points Scored (State Series): 58 Average Points Allowed (State Series): 10 Average Points Scored (State Only): 48 Average Points Allowed (State Only): 14 Team State Duals Scores for Crown Point 2022 59-3 vs. Carmel (State Quarterfinal) 46-22 vs. Cathedral (State Semifinal) 29-28 vs. Brownsburg (State Championship) Average Points Scored (State Only): 45 Average Points Allowed (State Only): 18 2022 57-9 vs. Penn (State Quarterfinal) 56-6 vs. Perry Meridian (State Semifinal) 39-24 vs. Brownsburg (State Championship) Average Points Scored (State Only): 51 Average Points Allowed (State Only): 13 Individual Comparison for Evansville Mater Dei 2002 State Qualifiers: 10 State Medalists: 6 State Finalists: 4 State Champions: 1 Finals Win Percentage: .200 2003 State Qualifiers: 10 State Medalists: 7 State Finalists: 5 State Champions: 4 Finals Win Percentage: .800 Unofficial Team Score: 158.0 Individual Comparison for Crown Point 2022 State Qualifiers: 11 State Medalists: 9 State Finalists: 6 State Champions: 3 Finals Win Percentage: .500 Official Team Score: 178.0 (State Record) 2023 State Qualifiers: 11 State Medalists: 9 State Finalists: 4 State Champions: 4 Finals Win Percentage: 1.000 Official Team Score: 167.0 (Second-Highest Score in State History) Final Thoughts: If we are ONLY looking at Team State, then EMD 2002 is the best of the bunch, but if we include the entire state series, 2003 is slightly better. I’d say overall, though, EMD still remains atop the throne as the greatest dual meet team ever in Indiana twice over, but Crown Point has risen to be the greatest individual team in Indiana history twice over; they’ve had more qualifiers, medals, and individual championships over the last two years in comparison to EMD in 2002 and 2003. P.S.: I love that Perry Meridian is STILL in the mix to compete for a championship against the absolute best twenty years later. Falcon Pride. Edited February 22, 2023 by blueandgold IU89, TeamGarcia, Jayruss and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FCFIGHTER170 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Great breakdown buddy, I can attest to the EMD teams, as I was on the receiving end of a Mauer Mauling, they were unreal.. CP, BB and CG were all unreal squads.. I'd love to see how these squads match up in Dual format, but I'll tell you this The 96 EMD team was great as well with 11 State qualifiers/placers.. those LN teams Were awesome.. 2 PM teams that were great.. I'm just glad we have this kinda discussion going because it means we're thriving as a state. IU89 and blueandgold 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Dual results are misreading because you can look at the scores, but EMD wasn’t wrestling a nationally ranked team like Brownsburg. And wasn’t Cathedral last year popping in some rankings? Crown Point definitely had a tougher dual path. igotcaught, TurkMcGurk and HWTDAD 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Kendrick Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Both are fantastic and have been fun to watch. Just my opinion but I tend to lean towards Mater Dei based on how far ahead they were of everyone else in Indiana at the time. The gap between the top 3/4 is not that great currently IMO. Cricket21 and IU89 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotcaught Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 CP had the 2nd most placers as a team at Ironman. I would be surprised if any team going forward is capable of matching or breaking that feat. I know mater dei lost a dual meet during that time to St. Paris Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 hour ago, R. Kendrick said: Both are fantastic and have been fun to watch. Just my opinion but I tend to lean towards Mater Dei based on how far ahead they were of everyone else in Indiana at the time. The gap between the top 3/4 is not that great currently IMO. There is a significant gap between the top 3 and the rest in an individual format. In a dual format the gap is less. CG beat MD 28-24 at team state but blew them away at individual state. A few of those matches could have gone either way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, igotcaught said: CP had the 2nd most placers as a team at Ironman. I would be surprised if any team going forward is capable of matching or breaking that feat. I know mater dei lost a dual meet during that time to St. Paris Graham. That Graham team was ridiculous, with the Schlatter brothers leading the way. Pretty sure they were a top 5 team in the country at the time of the dual. IU89, Cricket21, igotcaught and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotcaught Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 19 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said: That Graham team was ridiculous, with the Schlatter brothers leading the way. Pretty sure they were a top 5 team in the country at the time of the dual. if they were top 5 then what was mater dei ranked? CP at full strength was 6th this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotcaught Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, R. Kendrick said: Both are fantastic and have been fun to watch. Just my opinion but I tend to lean towards Mater Dei based on how far ahead they were of everyone else in Indiana at the time. The gap between the top 3/4 is not that great currently IMO. 178 and 158 is a pretty solid gap. CP also had 6 different state champions in that 2 year span. Im not sure how many different state champions mater dei had during those two years. Edited February 22, 2023 by igotcaught Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 45 minutes ago, igotcaught said: if they were top 5 then what was mater dei ranked? CP at full strength was 6th this year. And it's crazy they were that highly regarding but still never really at full strength. Add Murphy, Hawkins, and Rinehart for the full postseason and this isn't even a discussion. busstogate, TrueRegionFan and D Summar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrschott Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said: There is a significant gap between the top 3 and the rest in an individual format. In a dual format the gap is less. CG beat MD 28-24 at team state but blew them away at individual state. A few of those matches could have gone either way CG at team state was pretty banged up with a few key holes in the lineup. IIRC, they were basically spotting everyone 9-12 points per dual that day, and still came in 3rd. ReformedPoster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Kendrick Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, igotcaught said: 178 and 158 is a pretty solid gap. CP also had 6 different state champions in that 2 year span. Im not sure how many different state champions mater dei had during those two years. The gap between Crown Point and Brownsburg/Center Grove is not that big, was my initial point. In the early 2000's the gap between Mater Dei and the rest of Indiana wasn't even close in a dual format. And in 2003 tournament format wasn't close either. In a time and era without Academies, clubs and kids moving around to wrestle for the best programs possible, they built and developed a machine that dominated this state for a decade and did it in a school with 500 students. Crown Point is an incredible team and program, as are Brownsburg and Center Grove. All are probably better than MD was back then.... Everything is better in 2023- nutrition is better, medical care for athletes is better, the overall wrestling product is better today than it was 20 years ago. But the level of dominance over the field now vs. what they did back then is not comparable. Edited February 22, 2023 by R. Kendrick SWINfan, ReformedPoster, Jayruss and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotcaught Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, R. Kendrick said: The gap between Crown Point and Brownsburg/Center Grove is not that big, was my initial point. In the early 2000's the gap between Mater Dei and the rest of Indiana wasn't even close in a dual format. And in 2003 tournament format wasn't close either. In a time and era without Academies, clubs and kids moving around to wrestle for the best programs possible, they built and developed a machine that dominated this state for a decade and did it in a school with 500 students. Crown Point is an incredible team and program, as are Brownsburg and Center Grove. All are probably better than MD was back then.... Everything is better in 2023- nutrition is better, medical care for athletes is better, the overall wrestling product is better today than it was 20 years ago. I respect your opinion but I don’t think the gap between CP and BB and CG was REALLY that close. CP beat BB at ironman, carnahan, and had a convincing 15 point win in the dual meet. They also beat CG at the AL smith by 80 points. Even at state for a subpar performance for CP and a monster performance by CG, CP won by over 35 points. CP still would of took the title home if Haney, Jendreas, and Frazier didn’t score any points. If that doesn’t scream dominance IDK what will! BB and CG are insanely talented programs who had a great rivalry this year, and next years team race with CP will be tight. But CP was on a completely different level than anyone this year, even with all the adversity. Edited February 22, 2023 by igotcaught MUSKEEWRESTLER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 hours ago, igotcaught said: if they were top 5 then what was mater dei ranked? CP at full strength was 6th this year. I want to say that MD was in the 12-15 range that year, but I could be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navy80 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 What's scary about this Crown Point team was that they weren't at full strength come tournament time. 132- Hawkins would have placed. 152- Rhinehart would have placed. The difference in the old Mater Dei teams that I would consider is how Mater Dei, contrary to everyones belief, had Mater Dei kids on the team. CP has kids from other schools. I won't say the dreaded R word because now it's open enrollment and kids can go wherever they choose. If you are talking about a pure home based Indiana team, it's 2003 Mater Dei. If you are talking about the best team in Indiana history, it's 2022 or 2023 Crown Point. R. Kendrick, blueandgold and Jayruss 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 32 minutes ago, navy80 said: What's scary about this Crown Point team was that they weren't at full strength come tournament time. 132- Hawkins would have placed. 152- Rhinehart would have placed. The difference in the old Mater Dei teams that I would consider is how Mater Dei, contrary to everyones belief, had Mater Dei kids on the team. CP has kids from other schools. I won't say the dreaded R word because now it's open enrollment and kids can go wherever they choose. If you are talking about a pure home based Indiana team, it's 2003 Mater Dei. If you are talking about the best team in Indiana history, it's 2022 or 2023 Crown Point. Define home raised talent? besides Rinehart who was not trained by Hawkins and Sessa? TrueRegionFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I asked this question last week mauer Ohio state coughlin indiana did anyone else from the Mater Dei teams wrestle in college CP is running out teams with mendez Ohio state tattini Duke Frazier VA tech Bahl IU Goin IU Cruz Purdue that’s at least 6 division 1 wrestlers in their line up Rinehart I can see going D1, the Clark’s probably D1 football kids line up the duals and see? We can all be nostalgic but this is the best indiana has ever been and that’s coming from all of the National guys. More guys will be recruited in indiana right now because of how good CP, Brownsburg and Center grove are TrueRegionFan, busstogate and AJ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAPtheMAT1313 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Only Mater Dei kids is an interesting assertion... Isn't Mater Dei a small, private, Catholic institution without geographic borders or townships, etc...that is able to offer scholarships as it sees fit?? D Summar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrschott Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 hour ago, igotcaught said: I respect your opinion but I don’t think the gap between CP and BB and CG was REALLY that close. CP beat BB at ironman, carnahan, and had a convincing 15 point win in the dual meet. They also beat CG at the AL smith by 80 points. Even at state for a subpar performance for CP and a monster performance by CG, CP won by over 35 points. CP still would of took the title home if Haney, Jendreas, and Frazier didn’t score any points. If that doesn’t scream dominance IDK what will! BB and CG are insanely talented programs who had a great rivalry this year, and next years team race with CP will be tight. But CP was on a completely different level than anyone this year, even with all the adversity. I heard it put into perspective at the end of the latest episode of Gorilla radio: CP was a champion and another placer better than CG, who qualified 12 and placed 8 this year. That's a pretty big gap. igotcaught, MUSKEEWRESTLER, ontherise219 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrschott Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, rrschott said: I heard it put into perspective at the end of the latest episode of Gorilla radio: CP was a champion and another placer better than CG, who qualified 12 and placed 8 this year. That's a pretty big gap. Put another way, CG would have needed to run the table in the championship matches (i.e. 5 state champions and a total of 8 medalists), and would still come up short. To win this year's state title, CG would have needed 5 champions and 10-11 placers, and even then it would have been close. igotcaught 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navy80 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 hour ago, ontherise219 said: Define home raised talent? besides Rinehart who was not trained by Hawkins and Sessa? Rinehart lol. But I was just posting to ruffle some feathers and get some comments going!! ontherise219 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navy80 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 57 minutes ago, ontherise219 said: I asked this question last week mauer Ohio state coughlin indiana did anyone else from the Mater Dei teams wrestle in college CP is running out teams with mendez Ohio state tattini Duke Frazier VA tech Bahl IU Goin IU Cruz Purdue that’s at least 6 division 1 wrestlers in their line up Rinehart I can see going D1, the Clark’s probably D1 football kids line up the duals and see? We can all be nostalgic but this is the best indiana has ever been and that’s coming from all of the National guys. More guys will be recruited in indiana right now because of how good CP, Brownsburg and Center grove are Good perspective.. I'd like to know the most D1 kids from one team. Not even D1 but the team with the most kids who wrestled in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 hour ago, navy80 said: Good perspective.. I'd like to know the most D1 kids from one team. Not even D1 but the team with the most kids who wrestled in college. Perry Meridian has a lot of guys killing it at Marian for coach Bradley blueandgold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahawkeye Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Craig Weinzapfel went on to wrestle for Purdue. ontherise219 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahawkeye Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 The MD teams from the 2000's were pretty well home raised, you could connect the dots to see the grade school and Parish these guys went to. If MD was handing out "scholarships" I must have missed that line because we paid full price to go. I had a buddy who had to work all summer (not just a month or so, ALLL SUMMER) to help his parents pay for tuition, to go to MD. That same buddy placed 2nd his senior year, I'd venture to say he'd be a prime candidate to recieve "scholarship money" but never got a dime. You can take that horse poo somewhere else. IU89, Jayruss, MUSKEEWRESTLER and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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