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Best to have never won it?


Jayruss

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54 minutes ago, Penn04 said:

That’s precisely what I meant. Regardless of the process and being “assigned” a place, never winning state and being a participant at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS seems pretty incredible. 

By no means am I trying to disrespect Dollys accomplishments with the following info, because he’s an absolute Indiana stud who deserves to be mentioned here but:

 

The only criteria to enter a competitor in the World Championships is country must be in good standing with UWW and send a wrestler to compete (not place) in their continental championship.  With that the nation is eligible at the weight and can choose who to send to Worlds (we have the World Team Trial.).   The Olympics on the other hand is a more stingy qualification process due to the limited number of positions the IOC opens at each weight class and involves a wrestler having place at major events to qualify that weight for their nation.  

 

 

Since Dolly represented Ireland he likely didn’t have much if any in nation competition and just needed to convince Ireland to help support his venture.  By getting them to sponsor him at the continental event he basically became their guy for Worlds too.  

 

 

That said a better  way to put it rather than he “participated in Worlds” is that at one of the Worlds he won two matches and reach the Quarter-finals. As well, he had a few decently competitive losses in a couple of his World matches. So it’s not like he just got a nice trip there from Ireland to take in the sights (as some rich donors have done before to get awarded citizenship just to qualify for a small nation at a World or Olympic event).  He put in the work and was at these events battling for a podium spot.  

 

 

Edited by MattM
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1 hour ago, RAJR said:

I get what you are saying, but with the format of the state finals, sometimes the second best wrestler loses before the finals. Draw can impact the strength of the path so to speak. Sometimes the "finals" happen in the semis. I don't think it's as clear cut as you would initially think. 

So many great names in this topic. My brother and I had a conversation this weekend about how tough it is to make the semi-final match of the State tournament. I get that some paths leading there are more difficult than others, but to get to that match, you are beating someone pretty good, or at least someone that just beat someone pretty good. My hats off to all the current and previous state semi-finalist. To me this makes it even more impressive how some guys just make this look so easy. 

 

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4 hours ago, maligned said:

I loved Alex Dolly, but what does "world placer" mean? Everyone is assigned a place. I think he did get 9th or 10th once for Ireland when he won two matches in the 32-man bracket. Maybe that's what you mean.

My buddy, Derrick Whitbeck, was 6th Alex's senior year.  Took Alex to OT I believe in the regional and wrestled him very close in the Al Smith (I think lost by one.)

 

While one of the best Rochester ever had, a 6th place finisher almost got him twice, maybe 3 times. (Not sure about the semi-state match they wrestled, I graduated the year before and didn't make it to Merrillville while drinking in Muncie.)

 

Dolly was great, but he had a few guys right there with him. 

 

I agree that he could have won most years, but I don't know about best to have never won it.

Edited by Coplen187
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17 hours ago, NavyGonzo said:

Only due to my relative being involved... Randle's only loss that season was to Steven Gonzales at the first dual tournament of the season, I believe to score was 3-1 or something close to that. Randle avenged it at Semi-State with a last second TD. The regular season of this weight class was insanely back-and-forth and went something like an old Freestyle round-robin tourney:

 

Gonzales beat Randle

Randle beat Campbell

Todd beat Gonzales

Campbell beat Todd

 

I'd hate to have been the rankings guy that year

You're right it might've been the year before, Your brother was a hammer too. 

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Tony Vaughn Heavyweight Fort Wayne Snider 1991.  A second and third.  Senior year beat the eventual state champ at The Al. Got disqualified in the Semi's at State stalled out whilst on top.  All-American at Purdue placing 3rd as a Sophomore.  Injuries and some unfortunate circumstances prevented him from reaching his full potential. We have a unique connection.  We were teammates my senior year.  I was a volunteer coach at Snider his junior and senior years.  Full circle moment my senior year at Manchester Tony became a student assistant at Manchester so he was now my coach.

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35 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Tony Vaughn Heavyweight Fort Wayne Snider 1991.  A second and third.  Senior year beat the eventual state champ at The Al. Got disqualified in the Semi's at State stalled out whilst on top.  All-American at Purdue placing 3rd as a Sophomore.  Injuries and some unfortunate circumstances prevented him from reaching his full potential. We have a unique connection.  We were teammates my senior year.  I was a volunteer coach at Snider his junior and senior years.  Full circle moment my senior year at Manchester Tony became a student assistant at Manchester so he was now my coach.

I remember him getting DQ'd for stalling.  I thought it was a legit DQ.  I think if you get DQ'd for stalling you are eliminated from the discussion.

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16 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

I remember him getting DQ'd for stalling.  I thought it was a legit DQ.  I think if you get DQ'd for stalling you are eliminated from the discussion.

As long as I can type he will never be left out. You are obviously bored and need some attention. I'll be your Huckleberry.  His D-1 All-American status trumps any detraction.  You are beneath him.  And shall remain.

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Jeff Pease - Muncie Southside

 

1990 Hwt State 3rd
1988 Hwt State Qualifier

National
1989 275 Junior Freestyle Nationals 1st
1989 275 Junior Greco-Roman Nationals 1st
1988 242 16U Freestyle Nationals 1st
1988 242 16U Greco-Roman Nationals 1st
1987 242 16U Freestyle Nationals 5th
1987 242 16U Greco-Roman Nationals 1st

College
1996 275 NCAA DII 7th for Central Oklahoma
1995 275 NCAA DII 2nd for Central Oklahoma

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37 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

As long as I can type he will never be left out. You are obviously bored and need some attention. I'll be your Huckleberry.  His D-1 All-American status trumps any detraction.  You are beneath him.  And shall remain.

😂.  He had a very good post high school career at Purdue.  Just giving you my opinion.  Put your big boy pants on and try to understand that others have a different opinion than you.  If you want to put him in the conversation, fine.  He's just not on my list.  It's not that serious, man.

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5 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

😂.  He had a very good post high school career at Purdue.  Just giving you my opinion.  Put your big boy pants on and try to understand that others have a different opinion than you.  If you want to put him in the conversation, fine.  He's just not on my list.  It's not that serious, man.

My deal is you are always commenting on my post when you know I don't deal witchu.  So if you go out of your way to make a jab at one of my guys: who you wouldn't say he had "a very good post high school career," to his face, I'll make it serious with my tone. If you don't like my tone stay off of my line.  Your list is basura.

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56 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

My deal is you are always commenting on my post when you know I don't deal witchu.  So if you go out of your way to make a jab at one of my guys: who you wouldn't say he had "a very good post high school career," to his face, I'll make it serious with my tone. If you don't like my tone stay off of my line.  Your list is basura.

Like I said, this isn't that serious.  I reply to many people's posts.  That's kind of the point of this board, right?  Try to relax and have some fun.

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10 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

Like I said, this isn't that serious.  I reply to many people's posts.  That's kind of the point of this board, right?  Try to relax and have some fun.

 

2 minutes ago, BIGCATSontheMAT said:

GenHeavyHandz, chilllllll bro

I don't know why you guys are so sensitive.  This is me chill.  If you don't like my tone don't come at me.

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On 2/20/2023 at 10:41 AM, purdue02 said:

Statistically speaking is Schoeff the “best” to never win it?  His finishes are 2, 2, 3, and 3.

 

Does any other non-champ have a finish total of less than 10? (2+2+3+3)

 

I know Corsaro was 2nd three times but his finish total adds up to 12 (6+2+2+2) because of his 6th place finish his freshman year. 

 

 

Well as @Y2CJ41  would say there is a website for that ... but I'll save everyone sometime. I liked the idea of a Final score that @purdue02 came up with. I kept this list to people who finished with a final of 30 or less. State Qualifier = 16

 

Starting with the Original best to not win

 

Ralph Clark- East Chicago Roosevelt 2,3,2,3 

final score (10)

 

Shannon Stout- Delta 6,5,2,3

Final score (16)

 

Damon Hummel- Rochester

SQ,2,2,3

Final score (23)

 

Mac Taylor- New Castle

6,5,3,3

Final score (17)

 

Tim Maldonado- 

East Chicago Central

4,SQ,6,2

Final score (28)

 

Robert Maldonado- 

East Chicago Central

4,SQ,2,3

Final score (25)

 

Randy Baker- Bellmont

3,3,6,7

Final score (19)

 

Andy Uhl- East Noble

SQ,4,3,2

Final score (25)

 

Matt Jaggers- New Castle

SQ,5,7,2

Final score (30)

 

Craig Macke- Evansville Mater Dei

4,2,2,3

Final score (11)

 

Tyler Goble- Bloomington South

4,5,5,SQ

Final score (30)

 

Kyle Mosier- Yorktown

SQ,4,4,3

Final score (27)

 

Justin Brooks- Warsaw 

5,4,4,5

Final score (18)

 

Derek Bevans- Yorktown

SQ,5,6,3

Final score (30)

 

Justin Kieffer- Roncalli

7,7,4,3

Final score (21)

 

Josh Kieffer- Roncalli

5,2,4,2

Final score (13)

 

John Sims- Evansville Mater Dei

6,4,5,2

Final score (17)

 

Tyler Willis- 

Indianapolis Cathedral

7,2,3,4

Final score (16)

 

Connor Mullins- New Castle

5,3,2,8

Final score (18)

 

Luke Welch- Castle

SQ,5,5,2

Final score (28)

 

Zachary Davis- Penn

SQ,6,2,2

Final score (26)

 

Vincent Corsaro- Indianapolis Cathedral

6,2,2,2

Final score (12)

 

Chandler Carroll- Yorktown

3,5,4,5

Final score (17)

 

Ben Harvey- Indianapolis Cathedral

7,3,SQ,2

Final score (28)

 

Brandon James- Perry Meridian

3,5,2,3

Final score (13)

 

Connor Knapp- East Noble

SQ,4,3,4

Final score (27)

 

Gunnar Larson- Avon

SQ,5,2,3

Final score (26)

 

Tristen Tonte- Warren Central

SQ,2,2,2

Final score (22)

 

Skylour Turner- Warren Central

8,7,5,5

Final score (25)

 

Gleason Mappes- Center Grove

SQ,4,4,2

Final score (26)

 

Kasper McIntosh- Portage

8,2,5,6

Final score (21)

 

Christian Hunt- Yorktown

6,SQ,2,2

Final score (26)

 

Ty Mills- Brownsburg

2,3,2,3

Final score (10)

 

Nathan Walton- Brownsburg

8,3,3,2

Final score (16)

 

Alex Mosconi- 

Indianapolis Cathedral

SQ,7,2,2

Final score (27)

 

Logan Boe- Danville

8,5,7,3

Final score (23)

 

Mason Winner- 

Jay County

7,8,5,5

Final score (25)

 

Drake Campbell- 

Brownsburg

5,5,6,5

Final score (21)

 

Raymond Rioux- Avon

6,3,2,2

Final score (13)

 

David Pierson- 

Warren Central

4,5,4,4

Final score (17)

 

Ian Heath- Leo

SQ,5,6,3

Final score (30)

 

Brock Ellis- Chesterton

SQ,4,5,2

Final score (27)

 

Aiden Warren- Perry Meridian

SQ,3,3,3

Final score (25)

 

Isaac Ruble- Bellmont

SQ,2,2,5

Final score (25)

 

Delaney Ruhlman- 

Bloomington South

SQ,2,2,2

Final score (22)

 

Cheaney Schoeff- Avon

2,2,3,3

Final score (10)

 

This list should (mathematically at least) bring some light to the conversation. I loved going through the old records and reliving some of these moments/ careers.

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@purdue02 and I haven't found anyone under "10" that doesn't have a title. 

 

Ralph Clark- East Chicago Roosevelt 2,3,2,3 

final score (10)

 

Ty Mills- Brownsburg

2,3,2,3

Final score (10)

 

Cheaney Schoeff- Avon

2,2,3,3

Final score (10)

 

Indiana has never had a four time runner-up. We have had three, three time runner-up.

 

Delaney Ruhlman- 

Bloomington South

SQ,2,2,2

Final score (22)

 

Tristen Tonte- Warren Central

SQ,2,2,2

Final score (22)

 

Vincent Corsaro- Indianapolis Cathedral
6,2,2,2
Final score (12)

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, M109R said:

Why are we still talking about this ? The best to never win state have a 2,2,2 in their resume .  If you don't have a 2,2,2 in your resume , how can you be in the discussion when there are 3 guys with a 2,2,2  ??

A 2, 2, 3 is the same if the loss was to the champ.

 

All 3 losses to the state champ.  Damon Hummel might as well had 3 2nd's, and would have made weight at 215 if that weight class existed his Junior and Senior year.

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22 hours ago, M109R said:

Why are we still talking about this ? The best to never win state have a 2,2,2 in their resume .  If you don't have a 2,2,2 in your resume , how can you be in the discussion when there are 3 guys with a 2,2,2  ??

Well all of the above guys have had truly remarkable careers.

 

But what's "better"  2,2,2 or 2,2,3,3

 

I think Vincent Corsaro might be the best then.. 6,2,2,2  4xplacer 

 

Or go with the guys who placed top 3 every year. 

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Ralph Clark- East Chicago Roosevelt 2,3,2,3 

final score (10)

 

Ty Mills- Brownsburg

2,3,2,3

Final score (10)

 

Cheaney Schoeff- Avon

2,2,3,3

Final score (10) 

Copy & Paste 

________________ 

 

Remarkable HS Careers, they’re the 1% of Indiana Wrestlers that can say done this . 👏🏽 

 

Learn something everyday ! 

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I've always had the belief that there are more factors than just how many times you placed high. An argument that holds the most weight to me is how many wins you have over the State Champs, especially in the season that they earned the title... Again, this is just my opinion, but Ty Mills would be easily #1 with multiple wins, in multiple seasons, over that season's weight class champion.

 

Other notables using my criteria would be Rickie Elkins and Randy Baker

 

Elkins was runner-up as a junior, Nationally-Ranked as a senior, was upset first round in a come-from-behind pin. Had wins over both of the wrestlers who wrestled in the finals that year, including an 8-3 win the following weekend at team state over the champ.

 

Baker was a 4X placer (3,3,6,7). Finished 7th his senior season, beating that season's state champ three times, including Regional and Semi-State. Baker was heavily favored his Junior and Senior seasons, but I believe was dealing with some lingering injuries and was upset in the quarter-finals both years.

 

And yes, a little bit of my "Early-2000's" bias is showing here...

Edited by NavyGonzo
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Craig Macke - 4,2,2,3

Freshman - lost to Gerardo Quiroz (runner up) and Thaddeus Douglas (2x fargo AA in Greco) in the 3rd place match

Sophomore - lost to Aaron Clark (1,5,4) and is Franklin Community's all time wins leader.  Macke beat him a week later at team state.  Pinned Nick Hartman in the first period.  Hartman would be a state champ the next season

Jr - lost to Angel in the finals, beat Nick May (2,3,6) in the semis

Sr - lost to Angel in the semis.  Also lost a close match to Dustin Schlatter in a dual with St. Paris Graham

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