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Crown Point, Brownsburg, Center Grove


navy80

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6 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

MD's dominance was rooted in their feeder program.  From the 70's up through the early 2000's there was not a better model in the state.  Kids would start wrestling in Kindergarten and there was/is the huge family/tradition aspect that kept that going.  Every feeder school would field a full team and the coaches were dads that were MD wrestlers. 

 

Now it has been surpassed by the academy model.  Kids are specializing and wrestling 365 days per year now and that has made a huge difference.  Those academy kids start matriculating to the same schools and before you know it you've got a powerhouse school that has a ton of resources.

So it can get done, without the academies?

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On 2/19/2023 at 7:46 PM, RAJR said:

So now New Castle is a small school?  I mean 800+ students, smallish by todays enrollment numbers I guess. They are more likely 2A due to large schools becoming larger and larger.  This impacts the calculations.  Small IMO is under 500, being a little generous.  503 was lowest 2A and just over 1,000 was the largest. 

 

Not dissing New Castle at all! They earned 5th place in the IHSAA tournament as a team and should be proud of the accomplishment! However, they weren't in Team State this year and are outside looking in right now for next year. Maybe they get in, my point is this illustrates the difference between the two "tournaments".

 

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7 minutes ago, Disco said:

So it can get done, without the academies?

It can also be done without heavy lineal continuity, although some helps.  If you have a strong community club where parents all pitch in to help the whole team get to practices, meets, and tourneys, you can do pretty good.  What I find that does not work so well is trying to get a collective of self-funded small unsuccessful teams to work together in the offseason to get better.  There was a great fear by some of making it into a recruiting pool for one school or another. 

Perhaps pay for play is the best route going forward.  Not sure how that will ever help great numbers of insolvent families have elite level athletes, but you never know how much farther the hand of philanthropy can stretch until you try.

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55 minutes ago, Disco said:

So it can get done, without the academies?

I'm not so sure it can be done without academies in this day and age.  I wonder how the evansville area would do if MCWC wasn't around.  Would guys like Kemper and Farmer have been in the finals if they only trained with their teammates during the season?  Not likely.

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On 2/19/2023 at 9:14 AM, navy80 said:

I'd like to know what the schools, coaches, wrestlers have done to change the culture into a dynasty culture? What are practices like? What are the coaches like? What's the secret sauce? 

 

I'll go on a limb and say Indiana has never had such three dominant teams.

Find out from the coach who in my opinion is one of, if not the best in the state at being very consistent every year . He has now done this at 2 different schools , I'm talking about Brownsburg's Darrick Snyder . Alot of teams can reach the mountain top , Staying at or near the top every year is another story .  My Kingsmen did it in 2015 but haven't sniffed anywhere close to that since . Snyders teams are in the top 5 and fighting for titles every year . Since 2016 Brownsburg has finished the IHSAA Tourney #2 , #1 , #2 , #3 , #4 , #6 , #2 , and #3 . They are my favorite to win it next year , that's consistency . Not many teams can boast these kind of numbers for 8 straight years . Like I said earlier , he done this at Mishawaka as well . If you want the secret sauce , ask Snyder.

Edited by M109R
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9 hours ago, M109R said:

Find out from the coach who in my opinion is one of, if not the best in the state at being very consistent every year . He has now done this at 2 different schools , I'm talking about Brownsburg's Darrick Snyder . Alot of teams can reach the mountain top , my Kingsmen did it in 2015 but haven't sniffed anywhere close to that since . Snyders teams are in the top 5 and fighting for titles every year . Since 2016 Brownsburg has finished the IHSAA Tourney #2 , #1 , #2 , #3 , #4 , #6 , #2 , and #3 . They are my favorite to win it next year , that's consistency . Not many teams can boast these kind of numbers for 8 straight years . Like I said earlier , he done this at Mishawaka as well . If you want the secret sauce , ask Snyder.

Couldn't agree with you more.  Reminds me of Al Smith in the '80's and '90's. Consistently putting his team in position to win.  Since we are talking @TheCounty.  Snyder started @St.JoeCounty.

Edited by GenHeavyHandz
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I haven't went through and read all 3 pages of this thread, so apologize if it has been brought up/pointed out earlier - but to me, it is pretty simple:

 

Seems like those schools (CP, Brownsburg, and now I guess CG) are collecting most of the "academy/club" kids in their area.

 

Imagine if Maurer/Coughlin decided to coach at a public school (since MD is expensive) and brought all their club kids with them...I imagine they'd compete with the CP's and the Brownsburg's of the world. 

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49 minutes ago, jets said:

I haven't went through and read all 3 pages of this thread, so apologize if it has been brought up/pointed out earlier - but to me, it is pretty simple:

 

Seems like those schools (CP, Brownsburg, and now I guess CG) are collecting most of the "academy/club" kids in their area.

 

Imagine if Maurer/Coughlin decided to coach at a public school (since MD is expensive) and brought all their club kids with them...I imagine they'd compete with the CP's and the Brownsburg's of the world. 

One difference is the fact that kids that go to CIA/Contenders/Red Cobra disperse through central Indiana pretty well or least through Marion, Hamilton, Hancock, Boone, Hendricks and Johnson counties. Cathedral and CIA/Outlaws have been pretty tight over the years, too...

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15 hours ago, M109R said:

Find out from the coach who in my opinion is one of, if not the best in the state at being very consistent every year . He has now done this at 2 different schools , I'm talking about Brownsburg's Darrick Snyder . Alot of teams can reach the mountain top , Staying at or near the top every year is another story .  My Kingsmen did it in 2015 but haven't sniffed anywhere close to that since . Snyders teams are in the top 5 and fighting for titles every year . Since 2016 Brownsburg has finished the IHSAA Tourney #2 , #1 , #2 , #3 , #4 , #6 , #2 , and #3 . They are my favorite to win it next year , that's consistency . Not many teams can boast these kind of numbers for 8 straight years . Like I said earlier , he done this at Mishawaka as well . If you want the secret sauce , ask Snyder.

To piggy back on this, consistency does not have to be measured only by high placement success in the State tournament. We can probably go through the list of schools that year in and year out produce individuals that compete quite well amongst the ranks. Agreed though, Coach Snyder definitely has been the best at doing it year in and year out. I will say this though, I bet you one ingredient in that sauce is simple, time. You have to be willing to put it in, sacrifice it, and try to find enough of it to spread around.

 

I do not think anyone can present a good argument against the influence that academies has had on our sport. I also would hope that these academies are producing the types of results that they have been, I mean at the end of the day, that is what is being paid for right? I also am quite certain that if many of these academy coaches were to take over a high school program, we would see those programs at or near the top consistently every year, as there are already some examples of this happening.

 

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1 hour ago, indypharmd said:

One difference is the fact that kids that go to CIA/Contenders/Red Cobra disperse through central Indiana pretty well or least through Marion, Hamilton, Hancock, Boone, Hendricks and Johnson counties. Cathedral and CIA/Outlaws have been pretty tight over the years, too...

Maybe so - but an awful lot end up at certain schools more than not. 

 

22 minutes ago, XCard said:

To piggy back on this, consistency does not have to be measured only by high placement success in the State tournament. We can probably go through the list of schools that year in and year out produce individuals that compete quite well amongst the ranks. Agreed though, Coach Snyder definitely has been the best at doing it year in and year out. I will say this though, I bet you one ingredient in that sauce is simple, time. You have to be willing to put it in, sacrifice it, and try to find enough of it to spread around.

 

I do not think anyone can present a good argument against the influence that academies has had on our sport. I also would hope that these academies are producing the types of results that they have been, I mean at the end of the day, that is what is being paid for right? I also am quite certain that if many of these academy coaches were to take over a high school program, we would see those programs at or near the top consistently every year, as there are already some examples of this happening.

 

The academy coach doesn't necessarily have to take over the high school program for the collection of "club/academy" kids to assimilate at one school. 

 

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that's the main cog to a successful program and what is more-than-likely taking place at CP and BB. 

 

That's not to take away from the HC at both schools..obviously a ton of time and effort. Someone still has to steer the ship.  

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14 minutes ago, jets said:

Maybe so - but an awful lot end up at certain schools more than not. 

 

The academy coach doesn't necessarily have to take over the high school program for the collection of "club/academy" kids to assimilate at one school. 

 

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that's the main cog to a successful program and what is more-than-likely taking place at CP and BB. 

 

That's not to take away from the HC at both schools..obviously a ton of time and effort. Someone still has to steer the ship.  

I don't know if "main cog" would be the description I'd use vs. complementary cog. The academy training in the youth level likely predominates but in high school age groups there's more of a symbiosis... The other aspect is the fact due to population density, these wrestlers' families often have choices for school attendance that doesn't involve long driving distances from their homes to a school or academy... So, the high school academic programs and the high school coach have to be able to meet the needs of the student athlete to achieve all their goals... 

 

To attribute causation to academies for these high school programs' successes likely isn't sufficient. 

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When choosing a community to move to if sports has an impact 

 

1. does your coach help you all year or is only an October-February it’s a lot tougher to be a part time wrestler and have success 

 

2. does it create a better training environment in season Partners, weight program coaching or coaching plans 

 

3. does the school have a better academics then our current community 

 

4. does the sport have better overall community support 

 

I think as a parent that makes the choice easy for me. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, ontherise219 said:

When choosing a community to move to if sports has an impact 

 

1. does your coach help you all year or is only an October-February it’s a lot tougher to be a part time wrestler and have success 

 

2. does it create a better training environment in season Partners, weight program coaching or coaching plans 

 

3. does the school have a better academics then our current community 

 

4. does the sport have better overall community support 

 

I think as a parent that makes the choice easy for me. 

 

 

Exactly!! Perfect breakdown.

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1 hour ago, indypharmd said:

I don't know if "main cog" would be the description I'd use vs. complementary cog. The academy training in the youth level likely predominates but in high school age groups there's more of a symbiosis... The other aspect is the fact due to population density, these wrestlers' families often have choices for school attendance that doesn't involve long driving distances from their homes to a school or academy... So, the high school academic programs and the high school coach have to be able to meet the needs of the student athlete to achieve all their goals... 

 

To attribute causation to academies for these high school programs' successes likely isn't sufficient. 

I would agree with that statement. 

 

48 minutes ago, ontherise219 said:

Cp won elementary duals, middle school duals and won Ihswca duals and individual state. Are they recruiting at all levels? 

I have no idea ?? But are you saying that the "Region Wrestling Academy" has no influence in these results?? 

 

Look - this isn't an "attack" on CP and/or BB at all. What they have accomplished and built is incredible! 

 

But I believe the person that started this thread asked "what are these programs doing differently" that sets them apart?? What is the "secret sauce" so-to-speak.

 

And- to me - just looking at it from afar the answer seems pretty simple - they are getting the best kids from the best academies to gather under one roof/one team. 

 

I know there are many more factors...but that seems to be a pretty big one. 

 

And it may come across as such - but it is not even really meant to be a critisim and/or a slight. 

 

"If you build it = they will come" 

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I am sure wrestling at region wrestling academy helps when you are with the same people every weekend you build relationships with like minded people. 
 

Alex Tsirtsis is the owner of RWA and head Coach at Mt. Carmel. 
 

Jose Escobedo RWA coach assistant coach at MC 

 

Jason Tsirtsis RWA coach 

 

paul Petrov RWA coach 

 

 

Mt. Carmel has benefited the most 

106-Lukas Tsirtsis Munster 

120-Damien Resendez Crown Point 

126- Jario Acuna Wheeler/portage 

132- Sergio Lemley Chesterton 4xer 

145- Nam Doan Lake Central 

 

it sounds like a couple 8th graders might be there also. 
 

I do not think any current  CP coaches help at RWA. They are all go for Bulldogs Premier 

 

i can not speak for the other areas but Buying a house in CP is tough, it’s a hot over priced market. If you are convincing families to sell their current homes and buy a new house in Cp then you might be in the wrong line of work. 
 

 

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11 minutes ago, jets said:

I would agree with that statement. 

 

I have no idea ?? But are you saying that the "Region Wrestling Academy" has no influence in these results?? 

 

Look - this isn't an "attack" on CP and/or BB at all. What they have accomplished and built is incredible! 

 

But I believe the person that started this thread asked "what are these programs doing differently" that sets them apart?? What is the "secret sauce" so-to-speak.

 

And- to me - just looking at it from afar the answer seems pretty simple - they are getting the best kids from the best academies to gather under one roof/one team. 

 

I know there are many more factors...but that seems to be a pretty big one. 

 

And it may come across as such - but it is not even really meant to be a critisim and/or a slight. 

 

"If you build it = they will come" 


Dedicated coaches and surrounding your self with good coaches. 
 

We used to kinda do academies, it would be open rooms

 

in the Region access to top level training partners and high level coaching has helped academies 

 

 

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The acadmies have been steadily improving the wrestling level at the youth and higher levels. Contenders alone had ties to 10 of the 28 finalists. Two weight classes had two Contenders v Contenders. 

 

HCs are bennefitting from having kids enter their high school programs having years of training and success under their belts. It does help that the big three schools from this year are all in areas that are serviced by academies. 

 

Those three schools are fortunate to be in great locations with access to academies and families who can afford the extra, more serious training opportunities. To keep the athletes all together working for the same goal is the HCs job. So there is something to be said about BB, CP, EMD, CG, and all others for keeping the athletes together and creating a program that people want to be a part of. I agree with the phrase "symbiotic relationship."

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19 hours ago, ontherise219 said:

When choosing a community to move to if sports has an impact 

 

1. does your coach help you all year or is only an October-February it’s a lot tougher to be a part time wrestler and have success 

 

2. does it create a better training environment in season Partners, weight program coaching or coaching plans 

 

3. does the school have a better academics then our current community 

 

4. does the sport have better overall community support 

 

I think as a parent that makes the choice easy for me. 

 

 

Great points.  Dedication is the key and community support.  Commitment.  Sacrifices have to be made and resources pooled.  I hate when people keep giving Fort Wayne an out by saying we don't have middle school wrestling and academies.  Start them.  Put your money up.  I do and will.  Drive to RWA.  Go to Brownsburg.  Pull up on Warren. Go to CIA.  Some people are afraid to get their butts kicked in the offseason in front of people.  Then your ceiling is third.  Is it a secret that our only finalist is an All-American?  He put in the work and he hit who he needed to to get better.  Gotta take our lumps and then maybe we can compete across the board.  If not the status quo shall remain on top.

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3 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Great points.  Dedication is the key and community support.  Commitment.  Sacrifices have to be made and resources pooled.  I hate when people keep giving Fort Wayne an out by saying we don't have middle school wrestling and academies.  Start them.  Put your money up.  I do and will.  Drive to RWA.  Go to Brownsburg.  Pull up on Warren. Go to CIA.  Some people are afraid to get their butts kicked in the offseason in front of people.  Then your ceiling is third.  Is it a secret that our only finalist is an All-American?  He put in the work and he hit who he needed to to get better.  Gotta take our lumps and then maybe we can compete across the board.  If not the status quo shall remain on top.

So in other words - the power is in the Academies . And the schools that are the MOST successful have collected a lot of the same academy kids?? Correct?? 

 

Again, I think the purpose of this thread was to identify what Crown Point and Brownsburg were doing differently to be so dominate - ?? The answer seems to be get them to Academies in the offseason, then make sure you get the majority of them to come to your school. 

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19 minutes ago, jets said:

So in other words - the power is in the Academies . And the schools that are the MOST successful have collected a lot of the same academy kids?? Correct?? 

 

Again, I think the purpose of this thread was to identify what Crown Point and Brownsburg were doing differently to be so dominate - ?? The answer seems to be get them to Academies in the offseason, then make sure you get the majority of them to come to your school. 

You are talking to a guy who scouts elementary duals in Iowa (I have a 6th grader and an 8th grader there).  My point was if you want to compete you have to emulate what your competition is doing.  If you believe that academies are the reason that your team or school isn't competing then do the rounds.  The high school I support is in the city of Fort Wayne and is a Public school.  We just had a finalist who doesn't belong to an academy.  But he wrestles those kids 6 months out of the year.  He goes around the country.  We pool our resources.  We share ideas and technique.  Study.  I don't know.  Encourage the kids in your wrestling community to seek out competition and continue to improve their technique.  Do the kids from the academies go to good schools; or do kids from good schools go to the academies.  I'm guessing it is a little of both.

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I don't think there is a single reason why these schools are successful.  Almost everything said on this topic is on point,  academies, time, etc.  all contribute to the overall success of a program.  I do think that one other factor is money.  I don't know much about Brownsburg or Center Grove, but I do know that CP pours a lot of money into their wrestling program.  Be it either by the Club or by the parents of the wrestlers.  Not saying that money is a cure all or that you have to be wealthy to win a state championship, but it sure does help.   Those academies, summer wrestling, etc are not free.

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