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Sectional seeding meetings


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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

They have the seeding criteria in the bulletin. It's pretty straight forward, why do you need to contact them about it?

Coach Fleenor can correct me if I'm wrong, but the person in charge of running the seeding meeting had a question and called.  I can't remember any coaches trying to get away with something shady.  But if I am understanding you correctly we should not have listened to the person in charge at IHSAA and just did it the way we thought was the right way.

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10 minutes ago, Raven27 said:

Coach Fleenor can correct me if I'm wrong, but the person in charge of running the seeding meeting had a question and called.  I can't remember any coaches trying to get away with something shady.  But if I am understanding you correctly we should not have listened to the person in charge at IHSAA and just did it the way we thought was the right way.

No you should hash it out without needing to call the IHSAA. Be an adult and not run and tattle to the IHSAA. 

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10 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

No you should hash it out without needing to call the IHSAA. Be an adult and not run and tattle to the IHSAA. 

To be fair it wasn't any coach in the meeting. It was the host's schools tournament director, who had never ran a seeding meeting before. He called Faulkens before the seeding meeting ever started and refused to listen to multiple coaches who have been doing this for 30+ years. He then called Faulkens again, who said he would watch the entire seeding meeting from his computer to make sure it was done the way being described. Basically took the entire seeding meeting out of the coaches hands.

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(insert face palm emoji) - and this right here is why the IHSAA will never listen to any other sports about the importance of SEEDING - cause we (wrestling) can't even figure it out amongst ourselves! 

 

Essentially what I'm saying is I agree with Joe - don't make phone calls that are unnecessary. Figure it out as coaches. 

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11 minutes ago, jets said:

(insert face palm emoji) - and this right here is why the IHSAA will never listen to any other sports about the importance of SEEDING - cause we (wrestling) can't even figure it out amongst ourselves! 

 

Essentially what I'm saying is I agree with Joe - don't make phone calls that are unnecessary. Figure it out as coaches. 

Or at least gain enough trust with your tournament director (usually an AD) to ensure they ask you or the sectional coaches for clarification before getting some outside sources involved who is not fully aware of the best way to handle the situation.   Even if a coach would have called it may have turned out to be a better interpretation based on how things were asked and talked through than an unknowing tournaments director with little concept of a seeding meeting process. 

Edited by MattM
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2 hours ago, a_fleenor171 said:

If you go look at 2020 Elwood Sectional, Robert Faulkens made us seed the whole sectional this way. I was coaching at Guerin Catholic at the time and our 145 Jeff Dunasky was 28-2 with losses to Viduya and bumped up and lost to Kervin, both state champs that year. Had also teched the 1 seed the week before in 1st period, but was made the 2 seed because he didn't have as many head to heads. The craziest seeding meeting I've seen. https://www.trackwrestling.com/predefinedtournaments/MainFrame.jsp?newSession=false&TIM=1674586934175&pageName=&twSessionId=ubusvatgld

Robert Faulkens also showed up at the Lafayette Jeff sectional in 2016 and enforced the seeding meeting to the rule.  It created a few weird seeds.    But yes this rule has been in affect for years. 

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In regard to this new seeding criteria:

 

Mr. Faulkens, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Robert Faulkens also showed up at the Lafayette Jeff sectional in 2016 and enforced the seeding meeting to the rule.  It created a few weird seeds.    But yes this rule has been in affect for years. 

It’s not a rule. It’s an interpretation by RF and it is wrong.  The Winter Bulletin says nothing about it which the other question I posed to him.  Why wasn’t it in the WB if that is the way we are supposed to do it?  Never got an answer.  I believe every sectional should go by the WB and be done with it.  If there is a “rule” to be followed then it’s in the WB.

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1 hour ago, HawkinIndy said:

In regard to this new seeding criteria:

 

Mr. Faulkens, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Poor Blue died for the cause.

 

 

Edited by takemtothemat
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17 minutes ago, AJ said:

Why did Faulkens prohibit tournament directors from giving us hard copies of the brackets this year?

I found out at our meeting that if I wanted the bracket I had to write it down as we did it..

It’s seems strange the IHSAA wants to keep wrestling brackets so secretive and wait until as close to the event to create them Wed. and release them Fri.   Yet are also  putting our the basketball sectional pairing (same with football and volleyball) almost two weeks before the first games start.  

 

Seems like our brackets could be done by Tuesday just to make sure coaches had a couple days to input everything and the IHSAA if they really want to look over any weight data.  Then release them to the public by Wednesday.  If any mistakes are noticed after that then adjust them then or at the Saturday coaches meeting as has always been they case.  The IHSAA acts like they are going through everything with a fine tooth comb but it never seems like they catch anything and it’s usually the coaches who would first.  

Edited by MattM
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11 minutes ago, MattM said:

It’s seems strange the IHSAA wants to keep wrestling brackets so secretive and wait until as close to the event to create them Wed. and release them Fri.   Yet are also  putting our the basketball sectional pairing (same with football and volleyball) almost two weeks before the first games start.  

The most logical answer is they feel the pressure from indianamat!

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On 1/24/2023 at 6:43 PM, Clint Gard said:

It’s not a rule. It’s an interpretation by RF and it is wrong.  The Winter Bulletin says nothing about it which the other question I posed to him.  Why wasn’t it in the WB if that is the way we are supposed to do it?  Never got an answer.  I believe every sectional should go by the WB and be done with it.  If there is a “rule” to be followed then it’s in the WB.

Clint,  I agree in the spirit of the rule, this is not a good interpretation.   But I respectfully disagree, that in a technical sense, its a correct interpretation of the IHSAA seeeding Critieria/rules by Faulkens and has precedence going back at least 6 years and is based on the  (http://www.ihsaa.net/seedingmeetingtutorial/story.html).  Its clearly expressed in seeding meeting tutorial.   Note this issue has been discussed in multiple years on Indianamat, and and a robust discussion in 2017 on the controversial interpretation and i believe that was the year Robert Faulkens showed up at the Lafayette Jeff sectional to enforce his technical interpretation.   From an application sense,  most sectionals have historically ignored this rule albeit intentionally or sometimes due to ignorance of the criteria.   Maybe you're right, if the criteria was not included in the winter bulletin, then that might supersede prior precedence.    Did the WB include any seeding criteria/rules this year? 

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8 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Clint,  I agree in the spirit of the rule, this is not a good interpretation.   But I respectfully disagree, that in a technical sense, its a correct interpretation of the IHSAA seeeding Critieria/rules by Faulkens and has precedence going back at least 6 years and is based on the  (http://www.ihsaa.net/seedingmeetingtutorial/story.html).  Its clearly expressed in seeding meeting tutorial.   Note this issue has been discussed in multiple years on Indianamat, and and a robust discussion in 2017 on the controversial interpretation and i believe that was the year Robert Faulkens showed up at the Lafayette Jeff sectional to enforce his technical interpretation.   From an application sense,  most sectionals have historically ignored this rule albeit intentionally or sometimes due to ignorance of the criteria.   Maybe you're right, if the criteria was not included in the winter bulletin, then that might supersede prior precedence.    Did the WB include any seeding criteria/rules this year? 

link wont load, but imagin if dey did dat wif football...agwee to dithagwee wif mr faulkins

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2 hours ago, MikeTython said:

link wont load, but imagin if dey did dat wif football...agwee to dithagwee wif mr faulkins

Imagine if all the coaches honestly tried this approach which is a long standing directive in the Winter Bulletin before all the other criteria. 

 

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage.

 

 

If they did it would solve several debates about seeding before any of those other interpretations were necessary.  Fighting for your wrestlers is one things but trying to get an unwarranted advantage which hurts others is what causes someone to ask for clarification and then we get left with a poor interpretations from someone who does not understand seeding.  That what the issue was even 5 or so years ago when someone at the IHSAA decided to hand down this weird interpretation and and why it is still floating around today.

Edited by MattM
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I understand the need for seeding meetings, so that the best wrestlers have a shot at making it into the finals. As a father I never cared where my son was seeded, put him anywhere and I will send him out there to beat the other kid. If someone decided that their wrestler should be seeded higher, I would argue to get a seed that drew into them early enough to screw up the seeds. 

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