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Indiana U. ‘22-‘23


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While I know Rome wasn’t built in a day, the Indiana program seems to have gotten stagnant. I know the cupboard was bare when he started ,Angel got a few good recruits ,Rooks brothers , South and some immediate impact transfers ,but in the mean time has wiffed on top talent year after year. And I wish I could start this year talking about the rejuvenated lineup and how the Hoosiers will be in the mix for a mid conference finish, but I can’t. Other than all the guys on the squad are getting after it, unlike the last several years of the Goldman era, I don’t see any progress to move up in talent. I’m really beginning to question Fred Glass’s hire. At the time just a change of coaches, from Dwayne’s group was a coup. But now it getting scary , that the program maybe falling back into the old catch 22, after the initial excitement of getting the change of a new coach. Am I reading this right or is this year going to be different? I’m not as close to the program as some on this forum ,but I’m not feeling it. I propose a coaching change, this time ,reach out nationally ,with outside the Indiana athletic program, for help in the vetting for a good fit. 

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While I am in no way suggesting that I have the answer, but I’m just drawing to a conclusion. As far as applying for the vacant position on the staff, I can’t see how that adds to the point of discussion. I’m not qualified to coach that team. And never insinuated as such. I have on the other hand referenced Fred Glass at the time AD, and Scott Dolson ,to members of the college wrestling community , that offered me in reference to the open position at the time, in help in finding a good coaching fit for Indiana. And I did that because with the correspondence with  AD Glass, that he said he was not a wrestling guy, not knowledgeable in his words. They offered at no cost to IU , to help vet a new coach.  In other words I have suggested helping in a way that I could. Hope this answers your concern about me. 

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I think you have to give the current coaching staff a little time to fully establish their program/style and for their recruiting efforts to ramp up.

 

Indiana HS wrestling continues to improve and provide more college-level wrestlers that are available locally.  Because of this increase in depth everywhere, I look at college wrestling to transition to something more like NCAA basketball.  Many talented players are going with mid-major schools that are a better fit for them socially and academically.

 

IU is in a catch-22 I will agree there.  Until they can establish themselves as a winning school with a proven history of developing wrestlers and sending some on to later success (olympics, etc) they may not be seriously considered by the elite recruits.  Adding Chad Red Jr to their local RTC is a great move, in my opinion.  The coaching staff is very young - but should be hitting their stride now and sorting out roles/responsibilities.  There's no easy path in the Big10, but as we saw last year the entire college wrestling environment may be changing where teams are sitting out their best during dual meets and saving them up for a run at the NCAA tournament.

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4 hours ago, base said:

I think you have to give the current coaching staff a little time to fully establish their program/style and for their recruiting efforts to ramp up.

 

Indiana HS wrestling continues to improve and provide more college-level wrestlers that are available locally.  Because of this increase in depth everywhere, I look at college wrestling to transition to something more like NCAA basketball.  Many talented players are going with mid-major schools that are a better fit for them socially and academically.

 

IU is in a catch-22 I will agree there.  Until they can establish themselves as a winning school with a proven history of developing wrestlers and sending some on to later success (olympics, etc) they may not be seriously considered by the elite recruits.  Adding Chad Red Jr to their local RTC is a great move, in my opinion.  The coaching staff is very young - but should be hitting their stride now and sorting out roles/responsibilities.  There's no easy path in the Big10, but as we saw last year the entire college wrestling environment may be changing where teams are sitting out their best during dual meets and saving them up for a run at the NCAA tournament.

Escobedo just finished his 4th season as head coach.  How much more time should he be given to "ramp up" his recruiting efforts?  Let's be frank.  The IN high school studs he's recruited haven't panned out.  Moran, South, Deters, Kervin, Garcia transferred out, Rooks brothers have been fringe NCAA qualifiers, Washington has been hot/cold (probably due to injury this past season).  Until guys like this develop into AA's, then the Mendez's and Carroll's of Indiana wrestling will likely stay away.  Guys like Freeman and Major are still young and can develop.  Will be interesting to see Sollars develop over the next couple of years.  Our depth as a state has improved, but realistically only a couple of our studs are good enough to place highly in the big 10 and at nationals.  And those studs are not going to IU.

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On 7/12/2022 at 8:01 AM, base said:

I think you have to give the current coaching staff a little time to fully establish their program/style and for their recruiting efforts to ramp up.

 

Indiana HS wrestling continues to improve and provide more college-level wrestlers that are available locally.  Because of this increase in depth everywhere, I look at college wrestling to transition to something more like NCAA basketball.  Many talented players are going with mid-major schools that are a better fit for them socially and academically.

 

IU is in a catch-22 I will agree there.  Until they can establish themselves as a winning school with a proven history of developing wrestlers and sending some on to later success (olympics, etc) they may not be seriously considered by the elite recruits.  Adding Chad Red Jr to their local RTC is a great move, in my opinion.  The coaching staff is very young - but should be hitting their stride now and sorting out roles/responsibilities.  There's no easy path in the Big10, but as we saw last year the entire college wrestling environment may be changing where teams are sitting out their best during dual meets and saving them up for a run at the NCAA tournament.

My same comments 2 years ago. Now I’m thinking like reformed poster. As I said I’m getting nervous it isn’t going to happen with the current staff. I have nothing but good things to say about Angel and all of their coaches. But maybe they don’t have what it takes to progress any further. And with the athletes director not in the know abut wrestling, we drag on and end up with a Goldman situation.  I’m will to play out another season or to if I had an indication the team had a chance to hit middle pack in the Big Ten. But I don’t see it. Thus my original post. 

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Let's dive into the data a little bit -  first, here are the dual meet standings from Big 10 this past season (2021-2022):

 

Penn State  8-0

Iowa  7-1

Michigan 7-1

Wisconsin 6-2

Ohio State 5-3

Michigan State 4-4

Purdue 4-4

Northwestern 4-4

Rutgers 3-5

Nebraska 3-5

Minnesota 3-5

Illinois 1-7

Indiana 1-7

Maryland 0-8

 

I am going to classify Penn State, Iowa and Michigan as "ELITE".  I think Ohio State will join this group in the next year or two based on their recruiting class.  These are teams that will only likely lose to each other. Wisconsin was up there with only 2 losses this year but guess what - they didn't wrestle against either Michigan or Penn State.

 

Let's look at losses by the other teams / with losing margin, and discard losses versus the 3 Elite teams:

 

Wisconsin - Nebraska (10)

Ohio State -  only losses were to Elite 3

Michigan State - Ohio State (13), Northwestern (8)

Purdue - Michigan State (1), Wisconsin (11), Northwestern (5)

Northwestern - Wisconsin (4), Minnesota (22), Nebraska (11)

Rutgers - Wisconsin (5), Michigan State (3), Ohio State (5)

Nebraska - Purdue (3), Minnesota (6)

Minnesota - Wisconsin (6), Purdue (4), Ohio State (10)

Illinois - Rutgers (8), Purdue (12), Northwestern (13), Minnesota (10), Wisconsin (22), Nebraska (12)

Indiana - Rutgers (12), Michigan State (2), Purdue (1), Illinois (33), Ohio State (31)

Maryland - Indiana (14), Ohio State (35), Wisconsin (35), Michigan State (23), Northwestern (22), Rutgers (18)

 

What I take away from this is that the Big10's lower teams are all capable of winning, but are sometimes also hit by a tough schedule and some very narrow losses.  Indiana had a couple of close losses early on - then once Washington went out of the lineup they seemed to fold in the later part of their season.  Nebraska went 3-5 but could have easily been 5-3.  Several of Purdue's wins were close (by 3, 4, 1)

 

I don't know what the answer is for IU - but I don't think they are far off from a shot at the middle of the Big10 depending on their schedule.  As for wrestlers leaving - it could be blamed on coaching staff, but there are so many other factors (academics, social/personal, results versus expectations) that could also lead to these young people deciding there may be greener pastures elsewhere.

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I’ve been waiting over the the last two years to an announcement about a decent recruiting class close to signing day but it’s been more of a small group that has trickled in over time. Not judgment on the ability of who he’s getting, it’s more of the timing and amount of wrestler. I’m not sure if IU had a lot of scholarship money tied up with his first two years of recruits (upper classman know), if Angels still trying to figure out the recruiting game, if IU needs to step up it’s NIL connections for none football/basketball athletes (which could help make up for scholarship limits) or what, but something isn’t there to get a few more wrestlers to opt in early.  IU ends up with a couple guys in after signings open up and the a very slow trickle of wrestlers there after with several at weights IU isn’t as urgent to fill.  The last few recruiting classes have just seems pretty small in general compare to some other schools, which would make any momentum hard to maintains. Im hopeful Angel and company can find a few diamonds in the rough from Fargo that could spark the Hoosiers, but I’d like to see a little larger announced recruiting haul prior to summer and then Fargo scouting can be used to supplement that group that made a quicker commitment to the program. 

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11 hours ago, MattM said:

I’ve been waiting over the the last two years to an announcement about a decent recruiting class close to signing day but it’s been more of a small group that has trickled in over time. Not judgment on the ability of who he’s getting, it’s more of the timing and amount of wrestler. I’m not sure if IU had a lot of scholarship money tied up with his first two years of recruits (upper classman know), if Angels still trying to figure out the recruiting game, if IU needs to step up it’s NIL connections for none football/basketball athletes (which could help make up for scholarship limits) or what, but something isn’t there to get a few more wrestlers to opt in early.  IU ends up with a couple guys in after signings open up and the a very slow trickle of wrestlers there after with several at weights IU isn’t as urgent to fill.  The last few recruiting classes have just seems pretty small in general compare to some other schools, which would make any momentum hard to maintains. Im hopeful Angel and company can find a few diamonds in the rough from Fargo that could spark the Hoosiers, but I’d like to see a little larger announced recruiting haul prior to summer and then Fargo scouting can be used to supplement that group that made a quicker commitment to the program. 

Fair assessment here. And I agree. The status quo isn’t getting results to make a challenge to the middle of the BIG. 

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1 minute ago, base said:

See also DeSanto, Suriano, etc....   if he can win he's worth a shot for somebody!

There are levels of baggage and Ferrari has quite a bit right now with the legal case against him. Add on top of that the other antics that he seems to enjoy.

 

There is no doubt a coach will take a shot on him. It will be interesting to see which coaches will take the good with the bad. Will the ones that preach about culture, accountability, etc be on the phone with Ferrari?

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2 hours ago, Disco said:

Guys like Andrew Long who was welcomed to Pennsylvania State by Sanderson from Iowa state , is an example. 

Unfortunately he is not the best example of a redemption story. Dismissed from PSU due to a criminal case later in dismissed from Grandview for breaking his code of conduct contract, and has had a

some issues since. Hopefully he can get his life under control at some point cause the early wake up called didn’t get it done.  

 

IU doesn’t need to get mixed up

with potential chaos agents like Ferrari they just need to find a way to attract some solid talent that they can find a way to develop further. 

Edited by MattM
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12 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

My post was intended as a joke.  DeSanto and Suriano weren't accused of sexually assaulting somebody.  Big difference between them an Ferrari.

Hadn't heard details of why he was released from OSU, I only knew of the automobile accident he had been in, and his social media "persona"

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5 hours ago, MattM said:

Unfortunately he is not the best example of a redemption story. Dismissed from PSU due to a criminal case later in dismissed from Grandview for breaking his code of conduct contract, and has had a

some issues since. Hopefully he can get his life under control at some point cause the early wake up called didn’t get it done.  

 

IU doesn’t need to get mixed up

with potential chaos agents like Ferrari they just need to find a way to attract some solid talent that they can find a way to develop further. 

Just saying Cael gave Andrew a shot , it didn’t work. I know Carl is the epitome of accountability and culture etc. It happens a lot with lower profile wrestlers and will happen with Ferrari. He will get another chance. Some work and some don’t. I don’t think Indiana fans have to worry about If Ferrari would try to enroll. 

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22 hours ago, base said:

Hadn't heard details of why he was released from OSU, I only knew of the automobile accident he had been in, and his social media "persona"


LOTS of rumors flying around.  Seems to be a lot of noise that has been muffled.  Whether his treatment of women is criminal or simply despicable, is unknown at this point.  Generally, he seems to have an affinity with guns and many OK State women on campus aren't fans.  Specifically, he is currently under investigation for sexual assault.  Have heard his fate at OK State was pretty much sealed even before that.  Wish I knew more details.  Just a lot of smoke....
 

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23 hours ago, SWINfan said:


LOTS of rumors flying around.  Seems to be a lot of noise that has been muffled.  Whether his treatment of women is criminal or simply despicable, is unknown at this point.  Generally, he seems to have an affinity with guns and many OK State women on campus aren't fans.  Specifically, he is currently under investigation for sexual assault.  Have heard his fate at OK State was pretty much sealed even before that.  Wish I knew more details.  Just a lot of smoke....
 

So back on topic, I’m not sure two or three transfer ins will help the Hoosiers this year. 

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On 7/13/2022 at 3:25 PM, base said:

Let's dive into the data a little bit -  first, here are the dual meet standings from Big 10 this past season (2021-2022):

 

Penn State  8-0

Iowa  7-1

Michigan 7-1

Wisconsin 6-2

Ohio State 5-3

Michigan State 4-4

Purdue 4-4

Northwestern 4-4

Rutgers 3-5

Nebraska 3-5

Minnesota 3-5

Illinois 1-7

Indiana 1-7

Maryland 0-8

 

I am going to classify Penn State, Iowa and Michigan as "ELITE".  I think Ohio State will join this group in the next year or two based on their recruiting class.  These are teams that will only likely lose to each other. Wisconsin was up there with only 2 losses this year but guess what - they didn't wrestle against either Michigan or Penn State.

 

Let's look at losses by the other teams / with losing margin, and discard losses versus the 3 Elite teams:

 

Wisconsin - Nebraska (10)

Ohio State -  only losses were to Elite 3

Michigan State - Ohio State (13), Northwestern (8)

Purdue - Michigan State (1), Wisconsin (11), Northwestern (5)

Northwestern - Wisconsin (4), Minnesota (22), Nebraska (11)

Rutgers - Wisconsin (5), Michigan State (3), Ohio State (5)

Nebraska - Purdue (3), Minnesota (6)

Minnesota - Wisconsin (6), Purdue (4), Ohio State (10)

Illinois - Rutgers (8), Purdue (12), Northwestern (13), Minnesota (10), Wisconsin (22), Nebraska (12)

Indiana - Rutgers (12), Michigan State (2), Purdue (1), Illinois (33), Ohio State (31)

Maryland - Indiana (14), Ohio State (35), Wisconsin (35), Michigan State (23), Northwestern (22), Rutgers (18)

 

What I take away from this is that the Big10's lower teams are all capable of winning, but are sometimes also hit by a tough schedule and some very narrow losses.  Indiana had a couple of close losses early on - then once Washington went out of the lineup they seemed to fold in the later part of their season.  Nebraska went 3-5 but could have easily been 5-3.  Several of Purdue's wins were close (by 3, 4, 1)

 

I don't know what the answer is for IU - but I don't think they are far off from a shot at the middle of the Big10 depending on their schedule.  As for wrestlers leaving - it could be blamed on coaching staff, but there are so many other factors (academics, social/personal, results versus expectations) that could also lead to these young people deciding there may be greener pastures elsewhere.

While we all like the dual team action ,it really makes for team pride and closeness for recruiting and building and developing a deep room.But at the end of the day what really is important is your qualifiers for NCAA. Numbers is important for recruiting. Probably more than how deep they go, but both important for getting the “ELITE “ to give the program a sniff. 

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On 7/14/2022 at 10:31 AM, Y2CJ41 said:

There are levels of baggage and Ferrari has quite a bit right now with the legal case against him. Add on top of that the other antics that he seems to enjoy.

 

There is no doubt a coach will take a shot on him. It will be interesting to see which coaches will take the good with the bad. Will the ones that preach about culture, accountability, etc be on the phone with Ferrari?

 

If college wrestling coaches are anything like NFL coaches then yes, someone will 100% take a shot on him. I agree with you there are levels of baggage. But talent = tolerance/forgiveness. Please do not misinterpret this - I do not think this is right and certain offenses should allow for due process to run its course before any team "claims/offers" an athlete - especially which, if charged, are criminal in nature. If NCAA was worth its salt they would implement such a rule.

 

Let's not forget Gable had accusations leveled against him, he was found innocent, or at the very least he was exonerated. Imagine if he had entered the transfer portal, I bet he would have been picked up in 24 hours from any number of coaches who preach accountability. 

 

Bottomline, Ferrari can help a team win. If Ohio State or Michigan add him then maybe they make a run at a national title this year and beat out Iowa or Penn State. Imagine the back to back - Ferrari and Parris. 

 

 

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Don’t see Tsirtsis currently listed on the IU staff. Has he moved on to another DI assistant roll?  Maybe moved back home to help run RWA? Just IU not getting something updated correctly. 

 

 

Also does IU have a clear 133 for next year?  I noticed a few 125 and 133 still listed in the transfer portal with starting experience that could fit the spot.  With Moran likely a lifetime 125 it would be nice to lock down someone at 133 for a couple years. Angel could hopefully sell someone on the idea of learning from his (a former lightweight champ) and getting some time in with Red at the RTC (multi-time AA). 

Edited by MattM
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On 7/28/2022 at 3:50 PM, SunDevils said:

 

If college wrestling coaches are anything like NFL coaches then yes, someone will 100% take a shot on him. I agree with you there are levels of baggage. But talent = tolerance/forgiveness. Please do not misinterpret this - I do not think this is right and certain offenses should allow for due process to run its course before any team "claims/offers" an athlete - especially which, if charged, are criminal in nature. If NCAA was worth its salt they would implement such a rule.

 

Let's not forget Gable had accusations leveled against him, he was found innocent, or at the very least he was exonerated. Imagine if he had entered the transfer portal, I bet he would have been picked up in 24 hours from any number of coaches who preach accountability. 

 

Bottomline, Ferrari can help a team win. If Ohio State or Michigan add him then maybe they make a run at a national title this year and beat out Iowa or Penn State. Imagine the back to back - Ferrari and Parris. 

 

 


Not firsthand knowledge, but there is strong scuttlebutt that Ferrari's issues go much farther than the current protection order. Have heard from several places he was dismissed from the team (or it was in process) before the protection was filed.  Not saying he can't come out clear of all of this, but the text messages I've seen posted and other rumors, it seems to be a behavioral pattern.  

Sorry for the interruption, but back to talk about IU Wrestling

Edited by SWINfan
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