300 mile travel rule

[rookie78]

Why does this keep failing?  It got voted down 17-2.

[Ahawkeye]

Man that sucks.

[QuinnHarris]

12 hours ago, rookie78 said:

Why does this keep failing?  It got voted down 17-2.

Not sure I agree it shouldn't be a thing!

[Thor]

9 hours ago, QuinnHarris said:

Not sure I agree it shouldn't be a thing!

Indiana schools not traveling 300 miles I can deal with. It’s the can’t compete against anyone outside of 300 miles that’s dumb. Wrestling not being able to go to iron man cause a Florida school shows up is one of the dumbest rules we have. 

[rookie78]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Indiana schools not traveling 300 miles I can deal with. It’s the can’t compete against anyone outside of 300 miles that’s dumb. Wrestling not being able to go to iron man cause a Florida school shows up is one of the dumbest rules we have. 

yes, i don't plan to travel over 300 miles to wrestle, but we should be able to wrestle teams from 300.1 miles from the state line in all directions.

[Y2CJ41]

This proposal has been very interesting to follow. Usually the IHSAA will take a proposal and either approve it 19-0 or deny it 0-19. VERY VERY rarely is anything that is voted on not a full for or against.

 

About three years ago the Pocket Athletic Conference in southwest Indiana proposed basically abolishing the whole rule. This was interesting as these are a bunch of small schools that likely wouldn't travel that far anyway. The proposal was tabled and from what I gathered from inside operatives the IHSAA told them to change the proposal to limiting 300 miles, but opponents have no limits.

 

This week it was proposed AGAIN, but by the Southern Indiana Athletic Conference which is the Evansville city schools and a few others, so a bigger conference. It was proposed that opponents can be from anywhere. This was voted down, but the IHSAA stated this, "The Board of Directors requested that the Executive Staff review and draft a different proposal for team sports and individual sports for its consideration at the June Executive Committee meeting." The two people who were in favor of this were the from Cathedral and Lawrence Township(Lawrence North and Central). That is very interesting in that they are basically egging the people on that are proposing it to clean it up and make the rule clearer. It gives me a glimmer of hope that this will pass and the IHSAA will vote in favor if the wording suits them. They wouldn't be tabling it AND asking for a more clear proposal if they weren't ready to make a change in some fashion to this rule.

[ReformedPoster]

It's rare that wrestling teams in Indiana seek competition outside of the state with the current rules.  MD, CP, Brownsburg and some others have, but they are the exception.  Even if the rule changes, I don't see a ton of our schools suddenly pouring into the surrounding states for competition.  We have tremendous competition in IL, OH, and MI that we rarely take advantage of with the current rules.  I'm 100% on board with dumping the 300 mile travel rule, but let's not pretend that it will change much for the vast majority of IN high schools.  Specifically in wrestling, you will likely see the cream of the crop try to get into things like the Ironman or the Beast of the East but that's it.  Now, it will be extremely beneficial to the few teams that get into these events, and it will further widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.  But that's ok with me because it will mean more exposure for our elite schools and wrestlers.

[Y2CJ41]

13 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

It's rare that wrestling teams in Indiana seek competition outside of the state with the current rules.  MD, CP, Brownsburg and some others have, but they are the exception.  Even if the rule changes, I don't see a ton of our schools suddenly pouring into the surrounding states for competition.  We have tremendous competition in IL, OH, and MI that we rarely take advantage of with the current rules.  I'm 100% on board with dumping the 300 mile travel rule, but let's not pretend that it will change much for the vast majority of IN high schools.  Specifically in wrestling, you will likely see the cream of the crop try to get into things like the Ironman or the Beast of the East but that's it.  Now, it will be extremely beneficial to the few teams that get into these events, and it will further widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.  But that's ok with me because it will mean more exposure for our elite schools and wrestlers.

Honestly this reasoning is why the IHSAA has not been in favor of a change. They feel that this might be an "unfair" advantage for schools in any sport that have the means to travel to big out of state events. They also have stated in the past that there is "enough competition" within the 300 mile radius that it shouldn't be an issue.

[Galagore]

I agree with IHSAA on this. Not only does this create a potential competitive imbalance, but it also further distorts the appropriate place of athletics in a student's life. However, it is silly that Indiana teams cannot attend an event that also hosts a team traveling a great distance. What other schools and states allow their teams to do should not impact the competitive opportunities of our athletes.

[Y2CJ41]

Just now, Galagore said:

I agree with IHSAA on this. Not only does this create a potential competitive imbalance, but it also further distorts the appropriate place of athletics in a student's life. However, it is silly that Indiana teams cannot attend an event that also hosts a team traveling a great distance. What other schools and states allow their teams to do should not impact the competitive opportunities of our athletes.

One of the best arguments for totally abolishing the travel rule is that it should be a school level decision. Just schools will approve show choir, band, FFA, etc trips all over the country, some feel athletic travel should be determined by the school.

[Galagore]

18 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

One of the best arguments for totally abolishing the travel rule is that it should be a school level decision. Just schools will approve show choir, band, FFA, etc trips all over the country, some feel athletic travel should be determined by the school.

 

That makes sense, but I think there are some differences between band, choir, and sports. Band and choir are co-currricular activities, so their trips are more akin to multi-day field trips. As for FFA, I think excessive long trips by those clubs is also not a great idea when it is purely a club. Once a year for a national convention or if you have to travel great distances because of a state or national organization's competition is a different story. Also, more and more schools in our area are incorporating Ag programs into school curriculum, which would put those more in line with the band/choir model.

 

For the record, I think traveling that far for any school sponsored standard/regular-season competition is a bad idea, be it band, choir, FFA, sports, or a tiddly winks. However, I am open to having mine mind changed in the face of a compelling argument.

[SunDevils]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Honestly this reasoning is why the IHSAA has not been in favor of a change. They feel that this might be an "unfair" advantage for schools in any sport that have the means to travel to big out of state events. They also have stated in the past that there is "enough competition" within the 300 mile radius that it shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe if football pressed the issue more then it could pass? I agree that within wrestling and basketball there is a ton of talent within the 300 mile rule. But having lived in other states Indiana High School football is nowhere near the level of states like Louisiana, Texas, Florida, Georgia, California, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Ohio. Granted I don't think any Indiana High Schools should be traveling to California for a football game these are student-athletes but typically it seems like if football presses the issue things are more likely to swing in favor of a proposal. 

[ReformedPoster]

44 minutes ago, SunDevils said:

Maybe if football pressed the issue more then it could pass? I agree that within wrestling and basketball there is a ton of talent within the 300 mile rule. But having lived in other states Indiana High School football is nowhere near the level of states like Louisiana, Texas, Florida, Georgia, California, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Ohio. Granted I don't think any Indiana High Schools should be traveling to California for a football game these are student-athletes but typically it seems like if football presses the issue things are more likely to swing in favor of a proposal. 

Ohio, Tennessee, Alabama, IL, MI, Iowa, PA, maybe even parts of northern Georgia are all within 300 miles of the IN boarder.  There really isn't a compelling reason for teams to travel further than that.  I think probably the best compromise is to eliminated the rule about other teams that travel further.  

 

As for football, we have what maybe 2-3 teams in the state that could be competitive with teams in Florida, california, etc.

Edited May 4, 2022 by ReformedPoster

[Y2CJ41]

31 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

As for football, we have what maybe 2-3 teams in the state that could be competitive with teams in Florida, california, etc.

You can add all sports to that statement. I think the IHSAA hasn't cared to change the rule since it would only affect a few schools in every sport. If this rule opens up you aren't going to see 50 Indiana teams at the Ironman or Cheesehead or whatever other big event is out there. You'll see a handful at most utilize the rule as it is changed.

 

Good or bad, the IHSAA isn't one that cares to cater to the elite schools in most instances.

[GrecoCoach]

The IHSAA should not be able to dictate what teams are allowed at events outside of Indiana.  If they want to limit our own travel, that's within their power.  If they want to limit who Indiana schools can host, that's also within their power (arguably).  But the rule as it has stood for decades for events outside of Indiana within 300 miles is the problem.

 

We used to go to a holiday tournament in Ohio and worked with their AD to make sure all the schools were within Indiana's 300 mile rule.  After the first couple of years going, their AD wanted to expand the tournament to make it better, but some of the schools were a little farther than 300 miles.  That Ohio school had to tell them no for us to be able to keep coming.  Eventually we just dropped out of it so they could manage their own tournament how they wanted.

[bbulldog152]

51 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

The IHSAA should not be able to dictate what teams are allowed at events outside of Indiana.  If they want to limit our own travel, that's within their power.  If they want to limit who Indiana schools can host, that's also within their power (arguably).  But the rule as it has stood for decades for events outside of Indiana within 300 miles is the problem.

 

We used to go to a holiday tournament in Ohio and worked with their AD to make sure all the schools were within Indiana's 300 mile rule.  After the first couple of years going, their AD wanted to expand the tournament to make it better, but some of the schools were a little farther than 300 miles.  That Ohio school had to tell them no for us to be able to keep coming.  Eventually we just dropped out of it so they could manage their own tournament how they wanted.

A good example of this is Harrison Ohio, they're only 1 mile from the boarder and host a super dual with a hand full of Indiana teams and a hand full of Ohio teams. This past year they hosted a team from out side the 300 mile area and the Indiana schools couldn't face that team even though they were competing at a school just 1 mile away.  East Central and Harrison are within 10 miles away yet if Harrison hosted a holiday Tournament with just 1 school outs side the 300 miles EC wouldn't be able to compete in it... to me that make no sense. If traveling is an issue why do they have it set at 300? If they did away with the rule about competing against teams from out side 300 miles they could lower it to 150-250 and Indiana schools could still get good comp.

[QuinnHarris]

13 hours ago, Thor said:

Indiana schools not traveling 300 miles I can deal with. It’s the can’t compete against anyone outside of 300 miles that’s dumb. Wrestling not being able to go to iron man cause a Florida school shows up is one of the dumbest rules we have. 

I can agree that is much more of the issue!

[SWINfan]

9 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

You can add all sports to that statement. I think the IHSAA hasn't cared to change the rule since it would only affect a few schools in every sport. If this rule opens up you aren't going to see 50 Indiana teams at the Ironman or Cheesehead or whatever other big event is out there. You'll see a handful at most utilize the rule as it is changed.

 

Good or bad, the IHSAA isn't one that cares to cater to the elite schools in most instances.

Would a compromise such as limiting teams to one such event per year be reasonable?  That way, you won't see an IN team (regardless of sport) try to create a more national schedule, but would open up teams to taking in an event that includes teams from outside the 300 miles? 

[PedigoJ]

I believe the rule should go away. Indiana wrestling is some of the best and would and should be able to compete with everyone and have the option to travel to other states. Colorado has some great wrestling and there are schools that travel all over for top tournaments. I would like to see Brownsburg or CP take on Pomona or Ponderosa, or even see them wrestle in Top of the Rockies tournament. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by PedigoJ
Had another thought

[indypharmd]

strong proponent of ditching the second part of the rule of not allowing competition at a site that is within the 300 mile radius but has a team participate that is over that limit... 300 miles from the Indiana border gets teams the opportunities to compete in some very high level tournaments during the season.

 

More controversial... If schools don't want to participate as a group in the Ironman or beast of the east, individuals should still be given the option to compete with approval of the local coach or AD 

[Ahawkeye]

One point I will make on the "school should come first" argument, it was brought up here so I wanted to address it. YES YES YES school shoud come first but with technology being what it is kids can be on the bus streaming class and finishing homework. That is one thing the pandemic has given us as a positive, the kids can "attend" class without physically being there. Heck they can even ask questions! 

Just a little more fuel for the argument.

[Y2CJ41]

11 hours ago, SWINfan said:

Would a compromise such as limiting teams to one such event per year be reasonable?  That way, you won't see an IN team (regardless of sport) try to create a more national schedule, but would open up teams to taking in an event that includes teams from outside the 300 miles? 

That might be something the IHSAA is "fishing" for with wanting the people creating the proposal to add/update.