Team State 2023

[Thor]

17 minutes ago, buttler73 said:

I don't think there is a problem with scoring at all and the work that has gone into putting this together. I cant say that I understand exactly where all the points come from yetIt is a complicated system for sure and I am sure that it will keep evolving. And I am not a, "please all the people all the time" I own a company and that is unrealistic and that does not happen.

I do believe in being fair. And I believe that it is everyones best intention is to be fair. But really this is a big discrepancy. Go to 8 Team a division. really does not matter how many teams but make it even.and maybe even out the divisions more

 

4a - 38 total schools (21% of schools qualify for team state) this is 85,000 students= 8 teams*

 

3a - 56 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)  This is probably a bit high but 84,000 students 1,500 student averaged =8 teams

 

2a - 85 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state) 63,000 students=12 teams over 20,000 students less but has 50% more teams

 

1a - 85 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)30,000 students=12 teams

 

1 A has 1/3rd the students of 4A but 50% more teams in not counting EMD being a 1A team

*schools are able to bump up that are not 4A schools by enrollment count. (beating the dead horse)

Holy cow dude give it a rest. Arguing to take teams away from team state, in a division you aren’t in, is a wild hill to die on. The whole point of team state is to give smaller schools a chance to shine in a single class system.

[bwoodjc89]

Mr Buttler,

 

This is how the divisions progressed as I remember it. When this started there were only three divisions: 1A,2A and 3A. At time all three divisions had around 100 teams each, evenly split. The quantity of teams that qualified for team state were 12 each division. The schools that are now currently in 4A including EMD and Cathedral were for most part taking up all of the qualification spots. There was a gap observed that made it really difficult for many teams in 3A to be able to qualify so 4A was created to allow that slot size of school to have a chance to qualify.  At this time, it was decided since it was a split out of 3A to have 8 teams in the new 4A and 8 teams in 3A to qualify actually creating 4 more available qualifying spots for a total of 16 for teams that were previously in the old 3A.

 

I hope that helps you understand where we are today and why things are the way they are.

[buttler73]

2 minutes ago, bwoodjc89 said:

Mr Buttler,

 

This is how the divisions progressed as I remember it. When this started there were only three divisions: 1A,2A and 3A. At time all three divisions had around 100 teams each, evenly split. The quantity of teams that qualified for team state were 12 each division. The schools that are now currently in 4A including EMD and Cathedral were for most part taking up all of the qualification spots. There was a gap observed that made it really difficult for many teams in 3A to be able to qualify so 4A was created to allow that slot size of school to have a chance to qualify.  At this time, it was decided since it was a split out of 3A to have 8 teams in the new 4A and 8 teams in 3A to qualify actually creating 4 more available qualifying spots for a total of 16 for teams that were previously in the old 3A.

 

I hope that helps you understand where we are today and why things are the way they are.

I appreciate that explanation of how it has evolved to where it currently is. 

I just think that it is okay to add to this. for several reasons. Some of my thoughts get push back, that's okay. But looking at it right now I am sure this was a different east when it was put together. 

1. I am sure there were less kids over all. Less schools as we have more students and more facilities are built. But as we change the schools from one division to another I think it is important to reevaluate the those divisions as the  school grow above It will continue to make the 2 top divisions bigger with less spots. 

[bwoodjc89]

4 spots were created. I am going to do some calculating but I am speculating that Whitleland has a better chance to qualify in this format than the old 3 division format.

[buttler73]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Holy cow dude give it a rest. Arguing to take teams away from team state, in a division you aren’t in, is a wild hill to die on. The whole point of team state is to give smaller schools a chance to shine in a single class system.

If your reading it as an attack on small schools your probably not in the top 8 in 1A.... Oh I see ,South Adams the 11th team in 1A. Imagine if EMD was in 1A and your spot was not secure for the tourney. Because you are the 12 ranked at that point...You have to be voted in in December. I am saying it cant hurt to put 12 teams in each division. Someone said well your be wrestling all day.... What exactly is happening at 1A & 2A with 12 teams there? From what I have on here they do a fantastic job. Does it throw off logistics that much? 

Maybe I have not been clear. I just want it to be evened out on teams in each division. To me it makes no sense to dispute that. 

I am not the best at articulating my point in an email. I am a better speaker to get my point across. Anyway sorry to get everyone bothered.

 

[TakeTheShot]

Type or talk--either way its done.

[Thor]

50 minutes ago, buttler73 said:

If your reading it as an attack on small schools your probably not in the top 8 in 1A.... Oh I see ,South Adams the 11th team in 1A. Imagine if EMD was in 1A and your spot was not secure for the tourney. Because you are the 12 ranked at that point...You have to be voted in in December. I am saying it cant hurt to put 12 teams in each division. Someone said well your be wrestling all day.... What exactly is happening at 1A & 2A with 12 teams there? From what I have on here they do a fantastic job. Does it throw off logistics that much? 

Maybe I have not been clear. I just want it to be evened out on teams in each division. To me it makes no sense to dispute that. 

I am not the best at articulating my point in an email. I am a better speaker to get my point across. Anyway sorry to get everyone bothered.

 

I'm just saying, you are making a ton of awful points just to want 12 teams in each class. You're throwing a lot of talking points out that don't help you're argument. Bruce gave the perfect example of how the numbers break down. Sorry your class is harder because Cathedral and Mater Dei bump up. But that's always been the spirit of team state. Obviously, they would dominate every match if they both stayed in their own class, but that's not the point. The point is to get the big schools/heavy hitters battling it out themselves and giving the small schools a shot in the spotlight. Sorry that made it tougher on Whiteland. 

 

Also, it does suck not being in team state already. All we can do now is prepare our kids and beef up our schedule, which we have done. And I'm beyond excited to see what our squad can do to get that last vote-in spot. 

[casualwrestlingfan]

Tell me why wrestling isn't truly classified as 2 sports in one? The individual aspect is much different than the team aspect in duals. Much different than XC or tennis to compare. The bumping & shifting of the lineup truly sets it apart. Why I'll die on the hill & continue to beat the dead horse that the IHSAA allows it to be it's own tournament not affecting the scheduling points. That tournament would be all in and classed. Only stipulation would be having to fill 8 spots of the 14 for a match. It's time to get it done! No one has a legitimate gripe that way!

[buttler73]

22 minutes ago, bwoodjc89 said:

4 spots were created. I am going to do some calculating but I am speculating that Whitleland has a better chance to qualify in this format than the old 3 division format.

No clue as I don't know. I think we had a better shot in 3A but the moment numbers came up last year with 2012 students those were dashed. Which is why I made suggestion of updated every other year was a suggestion, like football. 

Whiteland has a great squad this year. Do I think we are on a level with Brownsburg or Crown Point? Nope. DO I think we can compete with the other teams?  Yup.

 

[maligned]

4 hours ago, buttler73 said:

 

Maybe I have not been clear. I just want it to be evened out on teams in each division. To me it makes no sense to dispute that. 

 

That argument will keep being confusing to people since there is already 25% of 4A taken and only 12.5% of the other three classes. You get special privileges as it is because we all acknowledge that almost every one of the 10 best duals teams overall will be in 4A. And even if Cathedral and EMD weren't involved, 6 of the 32 remaining is still 19%--higher chances than any other class. 

 

It's a sad reality of our severely limited system that the lower enrollment schools in all 4 classes qualify much less than the ones at the top of their division--no matter where the lines are drawn. Until we have an all-in model, people at the edges of qualification scoring or the edges of classification numbers will feel frustrated.

[buttler73]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

I'm just saying, you are making a ton of awful points just to want 12 teams in each class. You're throwing a lot of talking points out that don't help you're argument. Bruce gave the perfect example of how the numbers break down. Sorry your class is harder because Cathedral and Mater Dei bump up. But that's always been the spirit of team state. Obviously, they would dominate every match if they both stayed in their own class, but that's not the point. The point is to get the big schools/heavy hitters battling it out themselves and giving the small schools a shot in the spotlight. Sorry that made it tougher on Whiteland. 

 

Also, it does suck not being in team state already. All we can do now is prepare our kids and beef up our schedule, which we have done. And I'm beyond excited to see what our squad can do to get that last vote-in spot. 

Well  the several points out there that I was trying to hit on. Awful points? I guess that depends on what side of the fence you are standing. Because from over here I would like some sense made out of it. 

1. number of schools in a  class.------- only 1A& 2a are even amount of schools 

2. number students in each of those classes. ------no where close to even not at all and the 4A is going to keep growing in schools & Students and make the difference even greater.

3. the automatic immediate bump of a school when they hit a thresh hold-- this should be every other year and then adjustments made accordingly as well as to all divisions move teams up and/or down accordingly

4. The overall power of the schools in Moorseville Sectional  (11 teams) & Regional (21 teams)are amazing. The regional has 21 teams. Why? Of all the regionals out there to give an extra school to why would it be Mooresville? 6 --4A teams 2 where nationally ranked last year I believe in Center Grove and Brownsburgh.  but 6 teams which is 16% of all the 4A...

So some fun with math here 38 4A teams minus the 6 in the mooresville regional leaves 32 teams for the other 15 regionals. that leaves 2.1 4A teams  per regional everywhere else in the state. While we sit at 6.

ABSOLUTE BLOOD BATH.-Which is great creates some great matches but it also knocks out a lot of kids that would have moved on in almost any other Sectional or Regional. thus hurting team points... I understand there is an adjustment made because of this. 

 

And I will admit it. I am late to the discussion. My kid picked up wrestling in 7th grade. I had no clue about a lot things that happen in the high school wrestling. Last time I was on a wrestling mat was 1988. There are a ton of things that I flat out think are confusing and crazy in this sport and need be adjusted or a conversation about it and maybe how to improve it. Just really trying to create a dialog. I feel some improvements can be made. 

I will let this lie for now. I keep seeing different comments about an all inclusive option and IHSAA taking that over. 

No clue how that would work with couple of hundred teams, but I am sure they would make it look like football divisions when they are done.

 

 

 

[Jcjcjc]

On 10/25/2022 at 4:44 PM, buttler73 said:

So basically 4A the top half of 19 largest wrestling schools has 50,000 students and the top 38 teams represent 85,500 students and those 85,500 students get 8 spots to compete. Well really 6 spots. Take the entire division 1A and just say that every single school has 350 kids. Nowhere close to that number but for argument sake. 85 team x 350 = call it 30,000 and  your 2A teams lets go middle of the road and 85x 750 per school = 63,750 totaling 1 A schools and 2A schools call it 93,500..they get 24 spots.

your telling me that it is fair that these 4A schools get 8 spots for 85,500 students while 170 school all 1A& 2A combined has 93,500 get 24 spots? And then 8 of those spots go to schools that are not part of the division. And we think that adding in 4 more teams to 3A & 4A is a big deal? How about leveling it out?

 

4A --1 team(38 schools) per 14,250 students----- 8 teams

1A & 2A combined (170 schools) get a team for every 3,875 students.....12 teams a piece.

It just does not add up. Yup the unfortunate large school...What a joke. DO you realize how much EMD has available per student versus the unfortunate big schools?

Even at 12 teams 4A it is 1 team per 7,125 students. 

So again I think that more teams should be added to 3A& 4A divisions.

 

This logic is why there is a classed Team State. These numbers make a lot of sense for arguing for a classed Team State and an unclassed Individual State.

 

Big Schools get more individual state qualifiers in the unclassed Individual State format. 

Small Schools get more individual representation in the classed Team State format. 

I feel like you are pointing out a designed element of the system and saying it is a flaw. 

 

Making this argument for more Big Schools at team state seems to forget that the Individual State is creates results with more Big School participants based on the numbers. We can't talk about Team State and Individual State in isolation, because they are the top two ways we celebrate and showcase our HS wrestlers and teams. 

 

There are less 4A teams at Team State because there are just less 4A teams. There is a higher probability in making 4A Team State for each 4A team with or without EMD and Cathedal. There are less 3A teams at Team State because there are less 3A teams. 

 

There are more 4A individual state qualifiers at Individual State because there are more students in 4A schools. The representations of student population and state qualifiers was extremely close when it was posted on the board last. To me that justifies the unclassed Individual State tournament. 

 

Team State is about getting top programs of all sizes state goals that are achievable for every school. We can't make every goal completely equal in difficulty, so there are cut-offs, and there is always  frustration closest to the cut-offs of all situations in life. My team was #13 the last year of the 3 class system in 3A, so we didn't make it. That was frustrating, but it was understandable. As Winimac has attested, frustration will occur in our system, just like all systems that divide people into groups, but it can also be overcame. It also gives much more satisfaction than frustration in general, and even compared to past versions of team state.

 

 

[Jcjcjc]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:22 PM, buttler73 said:

If your reading it as an attack on small schools your probably not in the top 8 in 1A.... Oh I see ,South Adams the 11th team in 1A. Imagine if EMD was in 1A and your spot was not secure for the tourney. Because you are the 12 ranked at that point...You have to be voted in in December. I am saying it cant hurt to put 12 teams in each division. Someone said well your be wrestling all day.... What exactly is happening at 1A & 2A with 12 teams there? From what I have on here they do a fantastic job. Does it throw off logistics that much? 

Maybe I have not been clear. I just want it to be evened out on teams in each division. To me it makes no sense to dispute that. 

I am not the best at articulating my point in an email. I am a better speaker to get my point across. Anyway sorry to get everyone bothered.

 

 

1A and 2A dual meets go much faster than 4A dual meets. 

 

I would say they go faster than 3A dual meets, but Floyd Central and us had a dual with 13 6 point victories at team state, so maybe I'll leave that for a different year. 

 

[QuinnHarris]

19 hours ago, Jcjcjc said:

 

1A and 2A dual meets go much faster than 4A dual meets. 

 

I would say they go faster than 3A dual meets, but Floyd Central and us had a dual with 13 6 point victories at team state, so maybe I'll leave that for a different year. 

 

Cascade and Owen valley had a dual last year that all 14 matches ended in Fall!