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Team State 2023


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15 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

I don't think you know exactly where I'm coming from. I'm referring to only MD when I talk about a 500 kid school competing with a 1200 kid school. A team that willingly goes to the top class to wrestle. If someone is saying we should have a private school class because their school is 2 or even 10x the size of MD and they can't beat MD I say "What more do you want MD to do?" As far as your situation goes you should do right for you and your team (you are probably already doing that). In general I would not expect a 500 kid school to jump up and wrestle Ben Davis or Penn or WC at team state. I say don't mess with the system that is in place unless IHSAA wants to take it and do a class team state as long as a school can willingly move up. However I don't see IHSAA taking it, they already had team state at one time and then stopped doing it for a number of reasons, that subject is probably best for another thread.

I get what you’re saying now in regards to MD…

 

im ok if a school “wrestles” up, but I feel if they choose to wrestle up they should stay up for a “contracted number of years” …which I believe MD stays up every year anyway. 
 

 

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5 hours ago, CFleshman said:

Lets look at private school participation in all sports not just wrestling. They do play bye different rules. They have multiple state champions every year.

12 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

 

Sorry for the double quote, what different rules do the play "bye"?

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I just don't see how having 12 teams in each division is bad? So 1A cares that 4A has the same amount of teams competing?

Also Indiana Football has a reclassification every 2 year. They have 7 divisions and do this. Wrestling has 4. 

For a sport that struggles to keep interest why would less wrestling be better? Specifically from the larger schools. 

1----All CLASSES SHOULD HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES! 

And so my argument here is WHY with less spots available are smaller school bumping up and taking away from the bigger schools spots ? I understand that they want to compete, so do the bigger schools.

2----12 teams per class, again this cant hurt anything it allows more wrestling and I am sure more revenue for the host school of the meet.

3---Reclassification at least every other year, not every year.

 

As far a the private schools the should not get to pick where the play what sport. EMD is 4A for wrestling, but 2A for football???

I believe you play in your class size that you actually are. It is silly that the bigger schools are the ones punished because the smaller ones play up. If it is okay to move up it should be okay to move down. I am sure the 2A teams would love a crack at EMD. Ad other 3A teams a crack at Cathedral. But in fairness you are knocking out 2 other schools that are a certain class size picked by the committee. If they do move up then the team they bump should be able to move down a class and take the spot. 

 

My understanding is that you need to have a doctorates in Calculus to figure out the equation  from the different Sectionals, Regionals, and Semi state and they are all different?? I  keep looking at Moorseville and the amount of just powerhouses that come out of the SEC. & REG is just insane. They knock each other. While there maybe some adjustments to points based on the sectional, it doesn't help when your bumped as the 5 th guy in any of it.

In the Moorseville Regional regional alone their are 6 x 4A teams

AVON

BEN DAVIS

Brownsburg

Center Grove

Pike

Whiteland

 

 

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In the other IHSAA sports such as Football and Volleyball there is also a success factor that moves teams up into the next class, I believe if they win state twice in a row they move up.  Providence High School's Volleyball team is an example of this and it may have also happened Columbus East Football.  

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Also you have to factor in the size of the players in football. If you put 2A MD up against WC or Penn you would see a VAST size difference among players. Wrestling is a different animal, same size contestants. Also if you put MD where they align in the wrestling team state there will be no contest. I don't make the decisions coach Schaefer would be the one to make the decisions but why would MD spend the time there when they could go find better competition somewhere else? I think a better option would be to have an Open Class. Then have the designated size schools in their classes. That is if MD no longer had the option to move up.

Edited by Ahawkeye
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2 hours ago, buttler73 said:

 

 

I just don't see how having 12 teams in each division is bad? So 1A cares that 4A has the same amount of teams competing?

Also Indiana Football has a reclassification every 2 year. They have 7 divisions and do this. Wrestling has 4. 

For a sport that struggles to keep interest why would less wrestling be better? Specifically from the larger schools. 

1----All CLASSES SHOULD HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES! 

And so my argument here is WHY with less spots available are smaller school bumping up and taking away from the bigger schools spots ? I understand that they want to compete, so do the bigger schools.

2----12 teams per class, again this cant hurt anything it allows more wrestling and I am sure more revenue for the host school of the meet.

3---Reclassification at least every other year, not every year.

 

As far a the private schools the should not get to pick where the play what sport. EMD is 4A for wrestling, but 2A for football???

I believe you play in your class size that you actually are. It is silly that the bigger schools are the ones punished because the smaller ones play up. If it is okay to move up it should be okay to move down. I am sure the 2A teams would love a crack at EMD. Ad other 3A teams a crack at Cathedral. But in fairness you are knocking out 2 other schools that are a certain class size picked by the committee. If they do move up then the team they bump should be able to move down a class and take the spot. 

 

My understanding is that you need to have a doctorates in Calculus to figure out the equation  from the different Sectionals, Regionals, and Semi state and they are all different?? I  keep looking at Moorseville and the amount of just powerhouses that come out of the SEC. & REG is just insane. They knock each other. While there maybe some adjustments to points based on the sectional, it doesn't help when your bumped as the 5 th guy in any of it.

In the Moorseville Regional regional alone their are 6 x 4A teams

AVON

BEN DAVIS

Brownsburg

Center Grove

Pike

Whiteland

 

 

While I get where you're coming from and don't agree with everything you're saying..I can DEFINITELY agree that it's okay to have the SAME number of representatives at each class.  It wouldn't hurt anything.

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6 hours ago, buttler73 said:

 

 

I just don't see how having 12 teams in each division is bad? So 1A cares that 4A has the same amount of teams competing?

Also Indiana Football has a reclassification every 2 year. They have 7 divisions and do this. Wrestling has 4. 

For a sport that struggles to keep interest why would less wrestling be better? Specifically from the larger schools. 

1----All CLASSES SHOULD HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES! 

And so my argument here is WHY with less spots available are smaller school bumping up and taking away from the bigger schools spots ? I understand that they want to compete, so do the bigger schools.

2----12 teams per class, again this cant hurt anything it allows more wrestling and I am sure more revenue for the host school of the meet.

3---Reclassification at least every other year, not every year.

 

As far a the private schools the should not get to pick where the play what sport. EMD is 4A for wrestling, but 2A for football???

I believe you play in your class size that you actually are. It is silly that the bigger schools are the ones punished because the smaller ones play up. If it is okay to move up it should be okay to move down. I am sure the 2A teams would love a crack at EMD. Ad other 3A teams a crack at Cathedral. But in fairness you are knocking out 2 other schools that are a certain class size picked by the committee. If they do move up then the team they bump should be able to move down a class and take the spot. 

 

My understanding is that you need to have a doctorates in Calculus to figure out the equation  from the different Sectionals, Regionals, and Semi state and they are all different?? I  keep looking at Moorseville and the amount of just powerhouses that come out of the SEC. & REG is just insane. They knock each other. While there maybe some adjustments to points based on the sectional, it doesn't help when your bumped as the 5 th guy in any of it.

In the Moorseville Regional regional alone their are 6 x 4A teams

AVON

BEN DAVIS

Brownsburg

Center Grove

Pike

Whiteland

 

 

Consider MD and Cathedral to have moved up due to a similar "success factor" that other sports currently have.  It totally makes sense for me to have the 4A champ to likely be the best team in the state, no matter class.  There will be years that this isn't true but for the most part, it is.

 

Honestly, no way to make everyone happy.  There will be a line drawn somewhere and those below the line are likely to be upset.  When there was a single team state champ, the #9 team was upset they didn't make it, but all had to qualify--a line was drawn.  Now we have 32 teams fighting for 4 state championships, yet we now have even more teams (likely none that would win) upset they didn't make the cut.  

 

Just because some aren't happy, I would not make a change that keeps the top 4-5 teams from competing for the largest class championship.

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1 hour ago, TakeTheShot said:

Consider MD and Cathedral to have moved up due to a similar "success factor" that other sports currently have.  It totally makes sense for me to have the 4A champ to likely be the best team in the state, no matter class.  There will be years that this isn't true but for the most part, it is.

 

Honestly, no way to make everyone happy.  There will be a line drawn somewhere and those below the line are likely to be upset.  When there was a single team state champ, the #9 team was upset they didn't make it, but all had to qualify--a line was drawn.  Now we have 32 teams fighting for 4 state championships, yet we now have even more teams (likely none that would win) upset they didn't make the cut.  

 

Just because some aren't happy, I would not make a change that keeps the top 4-5 teams from competing for the largest class championship.

I would just go back to what I saw someone post on here about just being picked to compete in it was a boost for their program. Not if they won or not. Think any college coaches go to team state were all this teams will be? Do we think exposure is bad for the sport? To make it even is really not that hard and again 8 teams only @3A &4 A you yes allow others to play up but ultimately a small school some where else benefits from this as well..

8 -2 =6 teams from the actual 4A division. 

12 +1=13 teams for the 2A...

the amount of teams should be even across the board. 12 teams can't hurt anything, it can only help.

It already cost 2 points to participate in team state. Why not fill it out to 12? what actual harm is there from this? You get to see more wrestling?

 

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The harm is you take away 2 really great teams from the 4A division. Teams that could very well drop out of the tournament all together if they don't wrestle up. Both of these teams have their highs and lows at times but still manage to qualify for 4A and are regularly are in the mix for a title. If you mandate that they stay in their classes they'll be wrestling in Ohio or Missouri or somewhere else that weekend instead of showcasing Indiana wrestling.

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5 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

The harm is you take away 2 really great teams from the 4A division. Teams that could very well drop out of the tournament all together if they don't wrestle up. Both of these teams have their highs and lows at times but still manage to qualify for 4A and are regularly are in the mix for a title. If you mandate that they stay in their classes they'll be wrestling in Ohio or Missouri or somewhere else that weekend instead of showcasing Indiana wrestling.

But it is okay to send other teams packing for that weekend instead of show casing them? That's awesome!

 

So what happens when Roncalli or another private institute chooses to bump up and they are not yet to threshold of 2,000 students?  We let them in. Public schools don't have the same recruiting ability that EMD or Cathedral. So yes you are going to get talented wrestlers. I am sure a recruiting point for wrestling is team state.

How many 4A teams are in your Sectional or Regional? I truly don't know. 

I understand you think this is an attack on EMD &/orCathedral, it is not. I know families and wrestlers at both schools and am fans of active wrestlers at both schools. I think it is a shame that not all divisions have the same amount teams. What other sports do they penalize larger programs in High school?

 At the very least all divisions should be 12 teams, at the very least. 

 But that is

my thought on a change to the format. 

anyway...

 

Edited by buttler73
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I can think of at least three maybe four schools in our conference right now and possibly even five that would fit in the 4A bracket of the team State wrestling. Castle beat MD 2 years in a row several years ago as did Evansville Reitz again several years ago. But for the most part it's been all MD for the last 40 years in this section of the state. My answer to your dilemma is to create an Open Class where an unlimited amount of schools can enter. After that the 4A schools can have their class the 3A schools can have their class and so on and so forth but to alienate Cathedral and MD because they are private says to me you don't want to wrestle them because you don't want to lose to them. You can run the recruiting angle all you want but any kid anywhere in the state of Indiana is allowed to go to any school they want to they just have to get there on time pretty much every day. The recruiting bias should be dead by now. If your kids want to go to MD or Cathedral or Indianapolis Park Tudor they are allowed to go there with no restriction upon recruiting. Now the deal that happened with Christian Carol was one bad deal that was bad blood between the old athletic office and his new school but hopefully there are no issues this year for him. As far as showcasing one team over another think of it this way if you are playing travel baseball and you have an A tournament a B tournament and a C tournament and you are going to have a "showcase tournament" aren't you going to put your best teams in the A class?

Edited by Ahawkeye
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15 hours ago, buttler73 said:

 

 

I just don't see how having 12 teams in each division is bad? So 1A cares that 4A has the same amount of teams competing?

Also Indiana Football has a reclassification every 2 year. They have 7 divisions and do this. Wrestling has 4. 

For a sport that struggles to keep interest why would less wrestling be better? Specifically from the larger schools. 

1----All CLASSES SHOULD HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES! 

And so my argument here is WHY with less spots available are smaller school bumping up and taking away from the bigger schools spots ? I understand that they want to compete, so do the bigger schools.

2----12 teams per class, again this cant hurt anything it allows more wrestling and I am sure more revenue for the host school of the meet.

3---Reclassification at least every other year, not every year.

 

As far a the private schools the should not get to pick where the play what sport. EMD is 4A for wrestling, but 2A for football???

I believe you play in your class size that you actually are. It is silly that the bigger schools are the ones punished because the smaller ones play up. If it is okay to move up it should be okay to move down. I am sure the 2A teams would love a crack at EMD. Ad other 3A teams a crack at Cathedral. But in fairness you are knocking out 2 other schools that are a certain class size picked by the committee. If they do move up then the team they bump should be able to move down a class and take the spot. 

 

My understanding is that you need to have a doctorates in Calculus to figure out the equation  from the different Sectionals, Regionals, and Semi state and they are all different?? I  keep looking at Moorseville and the amount of just powerhouses that come out of the SEC. & REG is just insane. They knock each other. While there maybe some adjustments to points based on the sectional, it doesn't help when your bumped as the 5 th guy in any of it.

In the Moorseville Regional regional alone their are 6 x 4A teams

AVON

BEN DAVIS

Brownsburg

Center Grove

Pike

Whiteland

 

 

 

For what it is worth, I agree with your sentiment about wanting to give more teams more opportunities.  I believe the addition of this version Team State, run by the IHSWCA, has been an amazing addition and has done just that, to give teams more opportunities.  I personally do not mind that it is not IHSAA sponsored and think I think that it is run more effectively with the IHSWCA than it would with the IHSAA anyways.

 

If the venue allows for 12, then I suppose I agree this could be beneficial but just wanted to give you some stats.

 

4a - 38 total schools (21% of schools qualify for team state)

3a - 56 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)

2a - 85 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)

1a - 85 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)

 

*Numbers may be slightly off as I just counted the qualification sheet on the Team State leaderboard page.

 

EMD and Cathedral are counted in that 4a total above.  To your point they "take" 2 spots every year.  If you remove them, and only consider that 6 schools make it out of the 36, then that is 17% of schools that qualify for Team state.

 

I agree that if they can do 12 schools, then why not.  However, you do have to remember that 3a + 4a is basically just one class split into 2.  When you look at it that way, that class gets 16 qualifiers for Team State.

 

It is very unfortunate when you have potentially your best team in school history and you are being bumped to 4a when you could potentially qualify for 3a but they do have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Again, I agree with your sentiment but just wanted to throw some numbers out there.  I think this event is great and I am sure the powers that be appreciate any input for this event as well.  Each year they seem very open to changes and constructive criticism to make this event even better.

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1 hour ago, Ahawkeye said:

I can think of at least three maybe four schools in our conference right now and possibly even five that would fit in the 4A bracket of the team State wrestling. Castle beat MD 2 years in a row several years ago as did Evansville Reitz again several years ago. But for the most part it's been all MD for the last 40 years in this section of the state. My answer to your dilemma is to create an Open Class where an unlimited amount of schools can enter. After that the 4A schools can have their class the 3A schools can have their class and so on and so forth but to alienate Cathedral and MD because they are private says to me you don't want to wrestle them because you don't want to lose to them. You can run the recruiting angle all you want but any kid anywhere in the state of Indiana is allowed to go to any school they want to they just have to get there on time pretty much every day. The recruiting bias should be dead by now. If your kids want to go to MD or Cathedral or Indianapolis Park Tudor they are allowed to go there with no restriction upon recruiting. Now the deal that happened with Christian Carol was one bad deal that was bad blood between the old athletic office and his new school but hopefully there are no issues this year for him. As far as showcasing one team over another think of it this way if you are playing travel baseball and you have an A tournament a B tournament and a C tournament and you are going to have a "showcase tournament" aren't you going to put your best teams in the A class?

 I AM NOT TRYING TO ALIENATE THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

Simply want to expand the field since allowing the smaller schools to move up this should not be an issue at all. I am drawing light to the facts. These non 4A teams in terms of school size are allowed to participate which actually allows less true 4A teams to participate. There are 12 1A teams, 13- 2A teams and 9- 3A teams and 6 4A teams this year.

Why is 12 teams per class such an obstacle? 

I also want to understand the math behind the scoring for qualifications to get in.

 

Of course we have no problem Wrestling and competing against Public or Private schools. If that's what my statement says to you then you are not even trying to understand the points I am trying to make. 

Private school can help a kid  that was recruited or has interest in going to school their pay to go to this institution. Public don't have that ability. Private schools can bounce around the lines. You say your kid can go to this private school or that private school. Some families don't have the means or the ability to just do that. But if your kid is a strong enough at this sport or that sport I guarantee you they find a way to get him in the program. 

 

 

 

 

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Heres something to think about... so the Girls state tournament which includes a qualifier and the state finals takes place on 2 different weekends but only counts as 2 weigh-in points like a 2day meet... couldn't we do the same with this? Have qualifiers that lead to a team state finals. I know there's a lot of scheduling logistics involved but has this ever been something discussed or entertained. This would eliminate the whole qualifying based on guessing who are the better more deserving teams.  You could do 8 qualifiers per class and leave it up to the schools to decide if they want to compete on the qualifiers... you can lock in the classes for 2 years and have every team that participates  sign a two year contract like they would for a invitational. If you do it in tournament format it would only give wrestles 6-7 match compared to 9-10. matches if they participate in a 2 day super dual so IHSAA shouldn't have an issue with the match total. Maybe this isn't possible but it's an idea.

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Only in wrestling, do we get to hear about the unfortunate larger schools.  Every other sport its the unfortunate little schools that get don't have the numbers, the facilities, or athletes to compete.  As the math shows that a higher percentage of the bigger schools get to compete at Team State than the little ones the way it is.  So lets kick out 2 smaller schools out to let the bigger ones in.  Argument would be "bigger schools get their way in every other sport, why not wrestling?"

 

Let's face it, can't make everyone happy and some teams are going to be allowed in and others unfortunately will be left out.  We have already increased the number of teams competing for a state championship x4, which is great for the sport.  It's funny some solutions to this particular "who's in, who's out" is to go back to something similar to the old "open" 8-team Team state.  

 

Do another tournament, the same weekend for the team's that don't make it to state.  It can be "open" or "classed" and more teams can compete that day.  Good for the sport? sure.  Does it allow every team that wants to compete at state to participate in the team state tourney?  no.  Again, not everyone will be happy.  Allow 12 teams to compete--make the day last forever and water down the competition--and the #13 team in each class will be upset.  

 

Let's face it, the way this Team State tourney is done is pretty great the way it is and I believe everyone leaves each class' tourney confident the best team that day won and a team that unfortunately wasn't invited wouldn't have been champ if only they could have attended.

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8 minutes ago, TakeTheShot said:

Only in wrestling, do we get to hear about the unfortunate larger schools.  Every other sport its the unfortunate little schools that get don't have the numbers, the facilities, or athletes to compete.  As the math shows that a higher percentage of the bigger schools get to compete at Team State than the little ones the way it is.  So lets kick out 2 smaller schools out to let the bigger ones in.  Argument would be "bigger schools get their way in every other sport, why not wrestling?"

 

Let's face it, can't make everyone happy and some teams are going to be allowed in and others unfortunately will be left out.  We have already increased the number of teams competing for a state championship x4, which is great for the sport.  It's funny some solutions to this particular "who's in, who's out" is to go back to something similar to the old "open" 8-team Team state.  

 

Do another tournament, the same weekend for the team's that don't make it to state.  It can be "open" or "classed" and more teams can compete that day.  Good for the sport? sure.  Does it allow every team that wants to compete at state to participate in the team state tourney?  no.  Again, not everyone will be happy.  Allow 12 teams to compete--make the day last forever and water down the competition--and the #13 team in each class will be upset.  

 

Let's face it, the way this Team State tourney is done is pretty great the way it is and I believe everyone leaves each class' tourney confident the best team that day won and a team that unfortunately wasn't invited wouldn't have been champ if only they could have attended.

Well said.

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So basically 4A the top half of 19 largest wrestling schools has 50,000 students and the top 38 teams represent 85,500 students and those 85,500 students get 8 spots to compete. Well really 6 spots. Take the entire division 1A and just say that every single school has 350 kids. Nowhere close to that number but for argument sake. 85 team x 350 = call it 30,000 and  your 2A teams lets go middle of the road and 85x 750 per school = 63,750 totaling 1 A schools and 2A schools call it 93,500..they get 24 spots.

your telling me that it is fair that these 4A schools get 8 spots for 85,500 students while 170 school all 1A& 2A combined has 93,500 get 24 spots? And then 8 of those spots go to schools that are not part of the division. And we think that adding in 4 more teams to 3A & 4A is a big deal? How about leveling it out?

 

4A --1 team(38 schools) per 14,250 students----- 8 teams

1A & 2A combined (170 schools) get a team for every 3,875 students.....12 teams a piece.

It just does not add up. Yup the unfortunate large school...What a joke. DO you realize how much EMD has available per student versus the unfortunate big schools?

Even at 12 teams 4A it is 1 team per 7,125 students. 

So again I think that more teams should be added to 3A& 4A divisions.

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There are ways to word an argument and then there are ways to argue aimlessly 

 

so much of this has been beaten to death through so many threads with so many good posts by the involved parties detailing why decisions were made. I do not have the time or energy to explain why we’ve made the changes we’ve made. 
 

we used to have 36 teams, then we split 3A into two and now we have 40 teams. And now that’s not enough. 
 

 

Edited by decbell1
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11 hours ago, decbell1 said:

There are ways to word an argument and then there are ways to argue aimlessly 

 

so much of this has been beaten to death through so many threads with so many good posts by the involved parties detailing why decisions were made. I do not have the time or energy to explain why we’ve made the changes we’ve made. 
 

we used to have 36 teams, then we split 3A into two and now we have 40 teams. And now that’s not enough. 
 

 

What some people call arguing other people call discussing. Love pissing in some private school cheerios, only because I am jealous. In all honesty it's a great thing when people argue/discuss things like this. That means you have done it right and there is interest there. Well done on the coaches association's Team State. And thank you to everyone that helps put this together.

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11 hours ago, decbell1 said:

There are ways to word an argument and then there are ways to argue aimlessly 

 

so much of this has been beaten to death through so many threads with so many good posts by the involved parties detailing why decisions were made. I do not have the time or energy to explain why we’ve made the changes we’ve made. 
 

we used to have 36 teams, then we split 3A into two and now we have 40 teams. And now that’s not enough. 
 

 

I know in my argument, no blame is on the IHSWCA and what you guys do. My argument blames the IHSAA and how they handle things for wrestling. I also blame them on the GID with my common alias about the handling of the football postseason and not having some sort of seeding for it and other sports tournaments. They are not exempt as I am critical of the OHSAA on Yappi as well and how they do things. Just part of the frustration as a state liner in Adams & Van Wert counties not far from Mercer County line with family in Allen & Paulding counties as well.

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I don't think there is a problem with scoring at all and the work that has gone into putting this together. I cant say that I understand exactly where all the points come from yetIt is a complicated system for sure and I am sure that it will keep evolving. And I am not a, "please all the people all the time" I own a company and that is unrealistic and that does not happen.

I do believe in being fair. And I believe that it is everyones best intention is to be fair. But really this is a big discrepancy. Go to 8 Team a division. really does not matter how many teams but make it even.and maybe even out the divisions more

 

4a - 38 total schools (21% of schools qualify for team state) this is 85,000 students= 8 teams*

 

3a - 56 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)  This is probably a bit high but 84,000 students 1,500 student averaged =8 teams

 

2a - 85 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state) 63,000 students=12 teams over 20,000 students less but has 50% more teams

 

1a - 85 total schools (14% of schools qualify for team state)30,000 students=12 teams

 

1 A has 1/3rd the students of 4A but 50% more teams in not counting EMD being a 1A team

*schools are able to bump up that are not 4A schools by enrollment count. (beating the dead horse)

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The BCS model used for team state selection criteria is antiquated, it's time to catch up to modern times and send the IndianaMat staff to Grapevine Texas every Tuesday between Thanksgiving and Christmas and lock us into a room and we will release our IM rankings to determine team state weekly. 

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