Jump to content

Nick Lee GOAT?


Recommended Posts

Depends on the criteria you are using. If we go by HS and College accolades only, he’s in the conversation for sure. What hurts him is only winning one state title. I know he lost to Micic and Red but the fact remains he’s going up against guys like Angel, Jason, and Andrew Howe, just to name a few, who were all national champions, 3-4x AA, and 3-4x state champs. 

Edited by AlaskanMountie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, AlaskanMountie said:

Depends on the criteria you are using. If we go by HS and College accolades only, he’s in the conversation for sure. What hurts him is only winning one state title. I know he lost to Micic and Red but the fact remains he’s going up against guys like Angel, Jason, and Andrew Howe, just to name a few, who were all national champions, 3-4x AA, and 3-4x state champs. 

None of those guys you named won 2 straight NCAA Titles and Nick only wrestled 3 years in HS.. He also placed 3rd at the trials beating current 3x defending NCAA champ,US national champ world team member and 2x age division world Champ , Pan am champ, Yianni 16-8, Handled 3x Big ten/NCAA Champ, Cadet world Champ and world cup champ, Retherford 10-4 in the same day.. He's also got a while left to add to his accolades..HS state titles def hold weight but He's won more NCAA Titles than everybody you listed,5xAA, And if we look at his Skillset he's Just as good as any of those guys if not better..Howe IMHO has the best overall career up to this point but I think Lee is just as good as will surpass him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FCFIGHTER170 said:

None of those guys you named won 2 straight NCAA Titles and Nick only wrestled 3 years in HS.. He also placed 3rd at the trials beating current 3x defending NCAA champ,US national champ world team member and 2x age division world Champ , Pan am champ, Yianni 16-8, Handled 3x Big ten/NCAA Champ, Cadet world Champ and world cup champ, Retherford 10-4 in the same day.. He's also got a while left to add to his accolades..HS state titles def hold weight but He's won more NCAA Titles than everybody you listed,5xAA, And if we look at his Skillset he's Just as good as any of those guys if not better..Howe IMHO has the best overall career up to this point but I think Lee is just as good as will surpass him.

You’re focusing a lot on college accolades which I prefaced my post by saying it depends on what metrics you are using when trying to determine the GOAT. You’re placing a premium on NCAA titles which I agree with but you’re ignoring the lack of HS success which, IMO, has to be considered. Also, there is no such thing as a 5x AA…he didn’t place in the top 8 in 2020 (no one did) so that’s a moot point. I would agree that Howe is the front runner right now if you look objectively at HS and College success. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AlaskanMountie said:

You’re focusing a lot on college accolades which I prefaced my post by saying it depends on what metrics you are using when trying to determine the GOAT. You’re placing a premium on NCAA titles which I agree with but you’re ignoring the lack of HS success which, IMO, has to be considered. Also, there is no such thing as a 5x AA…he didn’t place in the top 8 in 2020 (no one did) so that’s a moot point. I would agree that Howe is the front runner right now if you look objectively at HS and College success. 

I agree with your sentiment, since you're putting a lot of stock in HS credentials we have to acknowledge Lee was 2x National FS champ and runner up during HS and placed 3rd at 16U as an 8th grader and 127 Fila Runner up.. Also let's not forget he wrestled Micic as freshman in semis who was #1 kid in the country only to tech Future Natty Champ/runner up Enrique Early for 3rd, won it as sophmore with all Bonus point wins all through his title run including 2 pins,major,and blowout win in the finals of state with 9 points being his closest match all year..

 

Then as you're fully aware was part of the biggest State finals match in state history and one the biggest at the time, in the country which is still talked about, where he was winning until the #1 p4p wrestler in the country stormed bk to defeat him.. Then didn't even wrestle senior HS season..I can't fault him or hold it against him that he knew he wasn't going to be challenged his senior season and made what turned out to be the right choice in getting his College career in gear moving to PA..

 

And to your point about 5x AA, Penn State and the the NCAAs have declared him 5x AA under the circumstances... His overall career is neck and neck with Angels rightas we speak, yes Angel won more state titles, and a natty but the last 2 years of Lee's career, he's had arguably the best overall success ever seen by any of our Indiana guys.. We need wait another 5 years and three revisit this subject and we'll have a lot more clear answer or Unanimous agreement on who is the modern G.O.A.T..Howe,Lee,Reece and Angel are def up there..

 

Also can't forget We still have to see what Allred ends up doing as well.. He's a very credentialed Guy as well that is coming along nicely under Manning  Nebraska, going 7-0 with 6 pins and a tech this redshirt season.. And that includes pinning Bastida of Iowa State who beat Iowa's 97 runner up Warner, All Americans Norfleet,Bulsak, Woodley,Elam twice, and pinned Hoffman for 5th place at the NCAAs also beatb jr FS world Champ and highly regarded Braxton Amos Bastida ..Bastida is an accomplished world class FS wrestler as well.. This speaks volumes about the development of Silas and I know his father is smiling down proud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by FCFIGHTER170
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Alduflux said:

Not to highjack the thread but can we get a list of all the Indiana Senior world team representatives and medals?

 

I'm thinking Jim Humphrey is the most accomplished.  Correct?

And one of the greatest contributers to not just to Indiana but for the sport as a whole.

Edited by FCFIGHTER170
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Alduflux said:

Not to highjack the thread but can we get a list of all the Indiana Senior world team representatives and medals?

 

I'm thinking Jim Humphrey is the most accomplished.  Correct?

Do you mean Reece?  He was a 3 time senior level representative.

 

  While Jim Humphrey coaches at IU for spell he is originally from Ohio and wrestled at Ohio State. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, MattM said:

Do you mean Reece?  He was a 3 time senior level representative.

 

  While Jim Humphrey coaches at IU for spell he is originally from Ohio and wrestled at Ohio State. 

I meant Jim, but I wasn't sure what state he was from originally.  Does that mean Reece has the most World senior team representations from Indiana high school grads?

Edited by Alduflux
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, FCFIGHTER170 said:

I agree with your sentiment, since you're putting a lot of stock in HS credentials we have to acknowledge Lee was 2x National FS champ and runner up during HS and placed 3rd at 16U as an 8th grader and 127 Fila Runner up.. Also let's not forget he wrestled Micic as freshman in semis who was #1 kid in the country only to tech Future Natty Champ/runner up Enrique Early for 3rd, won it as sophmore with all Bonus point wins all through his title run including 2 pins,major,and blowout win in the finals of state with 9 points being his closest match all year..

 

Then as you're fully aware was part of the biggest State finals match in state history and one the biggest at the time, in the country which is still talked about, where he was winning until the #1 p4p wrestler in the country stormed bk to defeat him.. Then didn't even wrestle senior HS season..I can't fault him or hold it against him that he knew he wasn't going to be challenged his senior season and made what turned out to be the right choice in getting his College career in gear moving to PA..

 

And to your point about 5x AA, Penn State and the the NCAAs have declared him 5x AA under the circumstances... His overall career is neck and neck with Angels rightas we speak, yes Angel won more state titles, and a natty but the last 2 years of Lee's career, he's had arguably the best overall success ever seen by any of our Indiana guys.. We need wait another 5 years and three revisit this subject and we'll have a lot more clear answer or Unanimous agreement on who is the modern G.O.A.T..Howe,Lee,Reece and Angel are def up there..

 

Also can't forget We still have to see what Allred ends up doing as well.. He's a very credentialed Guy as well that is coming along nicely under Manning  Nebraska, going 7-0 with 6 pins and a tech this redshirt season.. And that includes pinning Bastida of Iowa State who beat Iowa's 97 runner up Warner, All Americans Norfleet,Bulsak, Woodley,Elam twice, and pinned Hoffman for 5th place at the NCAAs also beatb jr FS world Champ and highly regarded Braxton Amos Bastida ..Bastida is an accomplished world class FS wrestler as well.. This speaks volumes about the development of Silas and I know his father is smiling down proud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know Lee skipped out on his senior year but that doesn’t change the fact his HS success was not as impressive as some of the others we mentioned. 
 

The 5x AA argument is ridiculous, IMO. I don’t care who declares them AA’s, they didn’t wrestle to get to the podium so it can’t be taken seriously. If those count, who was the national champion in each weight? The #1 seed, I presume? Why are we not declaring them national champions then? This is why I can’t take this accolade seriously…

 

I’m excited to see what Allred, Mendez, Seltzer, etc. can do the next few years. Hopefully we have to reignite this debate after their careers are finished. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, AlaskanMountie said:

I know Lee skipped out on his senior year but that doesn’t change the fact his HS success was not as impressive as some of the others we mentioned. 
 

The 5x AA argument is ridiculous, IMO. I don’t care who declares them AA’s, they didn’t wrestle to get to the podium so it can’t be taken seriously. If those count, who was the national champion in each weight? The #1 seed, I presume? Why are we not declaring them national champions then? This is why I can’t take this accolade seriously…

 

I’m excited to see what Allred, Mendez, Seltzer, etc. can do the next few years. Hopefully we have to reignite this debate after their careers are finished. 

This debate will go on until the end of time😂

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing to consider is that in high school Lee went after the best competition he could find. Yes Lee was successful in highschool and yes he had a couple losses BUT high school was not Nick's M.O. he was focused much higher goals than high school. I think we have yet to see the apex of Lee's career ( barring injury) however he is getting older and injuries may derail future plans. None the less Nick will find success in life be it wrestling related or anything else. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, AlaskanMountie said:

You’re focusing a lot on college accolades which I prefaced my post by saying it depends on what metrics you are using when trying to determine the GOAT. You’re placing a premium on NCAA titles which I agree with but you’re ignoring the lack of HS success which, IMO, has to be considered. Also, there is no such thing as a 5x AA…he didn’t place in the top 8 in 2020 (no one did) so that’s a moot point. I would agree that Howe is the front runner right now if you look objectively at HS and College success. 


It's pretty simple...   You can ask two separate questions.

1. Is Nick Lee the best HS wrestler IN has ever produced?
2. Is Nick Lee the best wrestler from Indiana?
Actually you could add a 3rd... Is Nick Lee the best wrestler ever from Indiana that wrestled HS in IN? (this one eliminates any Gable arguments ha ha) 

You seem to be focused on #1 whereas others are focused on #2.  

In my mind, the answer to #1 is no.  The answer to #2 is maybe, but the fact that none of the others in the discussion have 2 NCAA Titles matters.  As FCFighter said, his International resume is far from complete.  I think he can get there, and hope he does, but I'm willing to say he has a shot to be.  

#3 is the same as #2 but eliminates those that want to bring Gable into this.  
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

One thing to consider is that in high school Lee went after the best competition he could find. Yes Lee was successful in highschool and yes he had a couple losses BUT high school was not Nick's M.O. he was focused much higher goals than high school. I think we have yet to see the apex of Lee's career ( barring injury) however he is getting older and injuries may derail future plans. None the less Nick will find success in life be it wrestling related or anything else. 


He definitely needs to stop getting beat up on the mat.  I haven't seen a top wrestler with more black eyes, cuts, blood etc.  Or maybe he needs to get better at Dodgeball?  It has been happening for several years now.  😉

Edited by SWINfan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, SWINfan said:


It's pretty simple...

1. Is Nick Lee the best HS wrestler IN has ever produced?
2. Is Nick Lee the best wrestler from Indiana?



 

 

This is absolutely brilliant! Or maybe I only say that because I was thinking the same thing reading this thread.

 

Is Nick Lee the Greatest Indiana HS Wrestler of All Time?

Clearly not. He probably should rank higher than many would give him credit for, but that is a different argument.

 

Is Nick Lee the Greatest Wrestler that Indiana has produced?

If his career ended today, I would have to say no. But future world accomplishments might change my opinion.

 

Is Nick Lee the Greatest College Wrestler that Indiana has produced?

At this point I say yes. But an argument can be made for Andrew Howe. 1x Champ, 3xFinalist, with 3rd Place being his worst finish in (4) D1 NCAA National Tournaments. And we have some studs still to define their college careers.

 

This makes for some interesting debate, but the bottom line is we have some truly great wrestlers from our state to be proud of. And we have even more to keep an eye on in the near future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As of 2022, Nick Lee is the best college wrestler that this state has produced.  He will certainly have his hands full trying to be the world/olympic team rep going forward.  He did beat Yianni the last time they met in freestyle, so he should be confident in their next match up.  I think Nick has passed Retherford on the ladder, but still has to deal with Oliver, McKenna and Yianni (and maybe Eierman) to be our rep.  Not going to be easy, but now that he can focus solely on freestyle it will be interesting to see how much he progresses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Nick beat Eirman pretty handily the last time they wrested freestyle as well. I could be wrong but it seemed Eirman was frustrated at his inability to score on Nick. That was a while back though so we'll see how those two match ups turn out in the future. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ahawkeye said:

I believe Nick beat Eirman pretty handily the last time they wrested freestyle as well. I could be wrong but it seemed Eirman was frustrated at his inability to score on Nick. That was a while back though so we'll see how those two match ups turn out in the future. 


Nick did indeed beat Eierman last time in FS.  I think it's part of what helped him in folkstyle, even though he lost a close one to him last year.  It will be interesting to see how Oliver and Retherford do if they choose to come back down to 65kg.  Both have been wrestling at 70kg since the US Olympic Trials.  Eierman looks to have some rehab to do.  Not sure what his timetable for a healthy return is. 

 

I do think Nick is next up at 65kg for the US, but he'll have to do it.  Obviously McKenna and Yianni have a say in it as well, and there are other quality wrestlers that could step up.  Nothing is a given, by any means.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, SWINfan said:


Nick did indeed beat Eierman last time in FS.  I think it's part of what helped him in folkstyle, even though he lost a close one to him last year.  It will be interesting to see how Oliver and Retherford do if they choose to come back down to 65kg.  Both have been wrestling at 70kg since the US Olympic Trials.  Eierman looks to have some rehab to do.  Not sure what his timetable for a healthy return is. 

 

I do think Nick is next up at 65kg for the US, but he'll have to do it.  Obviously McKenna and Yianni have a say in it as well, and there are other quality wrestlers that could step up.  Nothing is a given, by any means.    

Oliver and Retherford will definitely be at 65 kg.  They aren't big enough for 74 kg and won't beat Dake and Burroughs to make the team.  65 Kg is their most realistic shot at making the team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said:

Oliver and Retherford will definitely be at 65 kg.  They aren't big enough for 74 kg and won't beat Dake and Burroughs to make the team.  65 Kg is their most realistic shot at making the team.

 

But in international wrestling there is a 70 kg (154 lb) class, that is what SWINfan was alluding to. The Olympics have less weight classes than other international wrestling events.

 

But I have no idea as to which class any of these guys will go. Very tough to make the USA team regardless. If Lee makes one he will have earned it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

Oliver and Retherford will definitely be at 65 kg.  They aren't big enough for 74 kg and won't beat Dake and Burroughs to make the team.  65 Kg is their most realistic shot at making the team.


The question is how effective will they be after a couple of years at a higher weight.  The cut may not be easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/20/2022 at 6:32 PM, Alduflux said:

I meant Jim, but I wasn't sure what state he was from originally.  Does that mean Reece has the most World senior team representations from Indiana high school grads?

David Butler (Munice Northside)

 

1991 74kg Senior Greco-Roman World Championship 
1989 74kg Senior Greco-Roman World Championship 
1988 74kg Greco-Roman Olympic Championship 
1987 74kg Senior Greco-Roman World Championship 
1986 74kg Senior Greco-Roman World Championship 
 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.