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Lee vs Red


Champ98

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Nebraska does have 5 wrestlers going for AA, including a finalist right by his weight.  So I think it’s hard to say the coaches aren’t developing talent in Lincoln.  What the right place educationally, socially, and athletically for each individual person in order to reach their full potential is hard to gage.  Some people end up being late bloomers and really excel way beyond expectation in college.  Others just end up with small gains even with the hype from Hs.  Red having multiple AAs shows he definitely is a top national guy, so clearly some progress was made.  Was it what some people hoped for no, but still puts him ahead of many HS studs who only AAed maybe once in their career.  

Edited by MattM
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Many times expectations aren't exactly what we hoped for, but being AA multiple times over and getting a great education, is something any and everybody should applaud! He was also in deep deep weight classes every year and this kinda stuff happens when you're competing against the best day time you compete.. Happy for him and his family, just wish this tournament didn't end like it did.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

College wrestling is tough. Being a three time All American is pretty darn good. CJ has confirmed and talked about the struggles he had mentally with the sport. 


You could say Chad was a disappointment, but I won't.  Yeah, we had high hopes, but Y2 is right, college wrestling is hard, really hard.  No National Titles, but a 3x AA on the mat and a 4th AA in the Covid year as a top 8 seed.  Nothing to scoff at.  Perceptions are likely distorted a bit because of Nick Lee's success.  But I don't think it's fair to discount what Chad has done because of what Lee has.  

Sometimes I think we fans think these guys are machines.  They're people and there are a ton of factors that can derail an athlete's focus in college.  Most of the time we never know what they go through.  I prefer to celebrate the success of all IN kids, whether National Champions,  All-Americans, or simply guys that wrestle at DI, DII, DIII, NAIA, etc.  

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Chad was a success story in my opinion. Like all have previously mentioned, college wrestling is hard and the Big Ten is even harder. As a five year starter for Nebraska, Chad was a 3-time NCAA All-American and named an NWCA All-American in 2020. With the wealth of knowledge he gained over time in the sport, the people he got to work with, and the success he achieved in his collegiate career, that's something many people strive for. Alex Tsirtsis, like Chad, was an undefeated four-time state champion who went on to wrestle in the Big Ten for Iowa and was only an All-American once, placing seventh. So, for Chad to make the podium three times in his career despite his struggles, shows how built he was for the grind of the Big Ten.

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Wow... I'd say Chad was very successful. How many other 4x AA's has Indiana had? Were there loses that I'm sure people didn't think he should have had, yes. But the fact is this is a tough sport. If we are going to say Chad didn't reach his full potential then neither did Marinelli, Eierman, amongst A LOT of others.

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It's worth saying too..Red was wrestling at a very high level this weekend. He comes an eyelash from beating Rivera and would have been one of four left in a very wide open bottom half of the bracket. He very well could have ended his college career in the title match facing the same guy he faced finishing high school.

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3 hours ago, maligned said:

It's worth saying too..Red was wrestling at a very high level this weekend. He comes an eyelash from beating Rivera and would have been one of four left in a very wide open bottom half of the bracket. He very well could have ended his college career in the title match facing the same guy he faced finishing high school.

That would have been a huge hit on here had they managed to wrestle under the lights this year. Can you imagine the discussion that match would have generated?

 

As far as reaching his potential, he AA'd 3 times on the mat and was granted a 4th according to the NCAA. I am thrilled to call both him and his father as friends that I have made through wrestling. 

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44 minutes ago, Jcjcjc said:

Chad Red is one of the best all time from Indiana. His college career is one of the best all time from our state. 
 

college career all timers:

Nick Lee

Angel

Andrew Howe

Jason Tsirtsis 

anybody else higher than Red? 

Humphrey Runner up and Third with 117-33 record 

Edited by JORVILLE
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In the modern era (post WWII) I’d throw some praise on these names for making the final  or high mutli-time high AA accomplishments:

 

Micic went 4th, 2nd, 3rd before this years take one for the team approach which most agree was a weight too high for where belonged sending him out in the blood round.

 

Paris has a 2nd and 5th.  

 

Kelvin  (don’t confuse him with Kevin) Jackson got a 1st for Mich State in 1995

 

Greg Wagner 6th, 4th, 3rd at HWT for Purdue. 

 

Leroy Vega was 5th twice and 3rd at Minnesota. Helping his team secure a national team title with his final placement too. 

 

Keith Davison has a 5th and 3rd for Wisconsin. 

 

Mark Whitehead was national Runner-Up at Wisconsin.  

 

Alan Grammer as a 5th and 3rd at SIU-Edwardsville

 

Bud Palmer as a 2nd and 3rd at Iowa

 

 

 

May have missed a few finalists or high multi-time AAs but that the modern era (post WWII) Group.  And that is with leaving out a few multi-time lower AA finishers and many one time high placers.   

 

https://indianamat.com/index.php?/history/ncaa-all-americans/

Edited by MattM
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/22/2022 at 6:36 AM, MattM said:

In the modern era (post WWII) I’d throw some praise on these names for making the final  or high mutli-time high AA accomplishments:

 

Micic went 4th, 2nd, 3rd before this years take one for the team approach which most agree was a weight too high for where belonged sending him out in the blood round.

 

Paris has a 2nd and 5th.  

 

Kelvin  (don’t confuse him with Kevin) Jackson got a 1st for Mich State in 1995

 

Greg Wagner 6th, 4th, 3rd at HWT for Purdue. 

 

Leroy Vega was 5th twice and 3rd at Minnesota. Helping his team secure a national team title with his final placement too. 

 

Keith Davison has a 5th and 3rd for Wisconsin. 

 

Mark Whitehead was national Runner-Up at Wisconsin.  

 

Alan Grammer as a 5th and 3rd at SIU-Edwardsville

 

Bud Palmer as a 2nd and 3rd at Iowa

 

 

 

May have missed a few finalists or high multi-time AAs but that the modern era (post WWII) Group.  And that is with leaving out a few multi-time lower AA finishers and many one time high placers.   

 

https://indianamat.com/index.php?/history/ncaa-all-americans/

 

Greg Wagner wrestled for Michigan. 

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On 3/21/2022 at 10:22 PM, Jcjcjc said:

Chad Red is one of the best all time from Indiana. His college career is one of the best all time from our state. 
 

college career all timers:

Nick Lee

Angel

Andrew Howe

Jason Tsirtsis 

anybody else higher than Red? 

Mason Parris

I'd take Brayton Lee over Red right now

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A couple things:

 

1. Most of us would love to have had CJ's career.  I watched him grow up as his father was one of my coaches.  I couldn't be more proud of the man he has become.

 

2. I'm not sure what the "expectations" where for CJ, but if you mean not being a National Champion, then I think you should look at what percentage of high school wrestlers actually go on to accomplish that.  Y2 probably knows!

 

3. IDK how many people on here wrestled in college, but there are more factors to your success than your wrestling ability.  I feel like I had the ability to complete for a DII title, but I never got close.  There were other factors that I struggled to overcome.  Some out of my control.

 

4. I personally think one of CJ's factors was weight cutting.  I had the same issue, as do many others.  When he had a good cut, he could beat anyone.  When he had a bad cut, he struggled (and by that I mean he was still a top 8 in the country kid :)).  

 

5. I know the question isn't meant to be disparaging, I'm just putting my two cents in as someone who has known the family since 1997.  I would never have sniffed a state title without Coach Red.  I know he is proud of CJ, you can hear it in his voice when he talks about him.  If CJ's accomplishments make Coach Red proud, that's good enough for me.

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I think it is fair to ask the questions about Red's career.  He's a guy that was undefeated in HS, ranked #1 in the country coming out, etc.  I think just about everybody's expectations were that he would be an NCAA champ.  I've never met, nor have I spoken to Chad Red.  But I'd be shocked if his own expectation was anything other than being an NCAA Champion.  I don't think anybody is disparaging what he was able to accomplish.  I just think it is fair to question why he didn't reach the pinnacle.  Just like it was fair to question why Alex Tsirtsis or Blake Maurer or Joe Lee or Lance Ellis or anybody else that dominated Indiana high school wrestling that didn't have the success that we as fans expected them to have.  Even more so when a guy that he beat in HS turned the tables on him in college and won multiple titles.  Chad Red doesn't owe anybody on this board an explanation for anything, but it makes for interesting conversation on this board.

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On 4/19/2022 at 9:51 AM, Holden said:

2. I'm not sure what the "expectations" where for CJ, but if you mean not being a National Champion, then I think you should look at what percentage of high school wrestlers actually go on to accomplish that.  Y2 probably knows!

 

Just some rough numbers

250,000 boys high school wrestlers

2,500 or 1% wrestle DI

10 of them win a DI title each year

Over the course of a college wrestler's four year career the max percentage of college wrestlers to win a DI title is 1.6%(some repeat obviously). The percentage of high school wrestlers that win a DI title is .016%.

 

 

Here are some other numbers where I pulled most the info
https://collegewrestlingrecruiting.com/2nd-child-page/

 

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