Girls Events and Counting Toward HS Record Question

[XCard]

I meant to ask this prior to the start of Sectionals. How many teams count the girls events toward their individual high school records? We did not count any wins or losses accrued during the Regional and State tournament on our wrestler's record because this is not an IHSAA event nor does it count toward their scheduled allotted points. Am I correct in interpreting it this way? This was an issue at our Sectional last year that would have changed the way a kid was seeded had the wins not been counted for the female wrestler. Thoughts?

[Ironbear]

Their records do not count toward the toward sectional wins or losses but both tourneys combined do count against that athlete which comes to 2pts. If a girl got all 18pts in the boys season and then wrestled in the girls regionals and state she then would have 20pts against her thus being over in pts.

[casualwrestlingfan]

Instead of worrying about the travel rule, how about we get rid of the pts/tournament rule or substantially increase the limit to 1.5 or 2x the current. The team state duals should be like the football & basketball tournaments. We should have a classed individual tournament and a single class individual tournament after the classed. Girls tournaments should have no affect on points for the boys tournament. Let girls compete in both if they choose & earn their way.

[Ironbear]

I for one am not against girls competing in both. 

[ENoblewrestling]

They counted at our sectional.  Its a really interesting situation.  In theory a girl could be 20-0 in girls events and get the #1 seed at their weight in sectional.  For that reason I am against counting the girls event records toward the varsity events. 

It would be somewhat similar to counting a wrestler's JV record toward their varsity record. That is not to take away from the girls event in any way, just to say that it is wrestling outside of the normal varsity schedule.

While writing this I began to wonder... if two wrestlers were to face off during the season at a JV event would that count for a head to head win in sectional seeding?  I do not know that I have ever seen that situation come up.

[Ironbear]

19 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

They counted at our sectional.  Its a really interesting situation.  In theory a girl could be 20-0 in girls events and get the #1 seed at their weight in sectional.  For that reason I am against counting the girls event records toward the varsity events. 

It would be somewhat similar to counting a wrestler's JV record toward their varsity record. That is not to take away from the girls event in any way, just to say that it is wrestling outside of the normal varsity schedule.

While writing this I began to wonder... if two wrestlers were to face off during the season at a JV event would that count for a head to head win in sectional seeding?  I do not know that I have ever seen that situation come up.

That is a great question.

[MattM]

1 hour ago, ENoblewrestling said:

... if two wrestlers were to face off during the season at a JV event would that count for a head to head win in sectional seeding?  I do not know that I have ever seen that situation come up.

The rules say it must be varsity competition only. 

[Y2CJ41]

4 hours ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

Instead of worrying about the travel rule, how about we get rid of the pts/tournament rule or substantially increase the limit to 1.5 or 2x the current. The team state duals should be like the football & basketball tournaments. We should have a classed individual tournament and a single class individual tournament after the classed. Girls tournaments should have no affect on points for the boys tournament. Let girls compete in both if they choose & earn their way.

We have enough events, there needs to be a limit of the number of events a team can enter.

[LionsFan]

21 hours ago, ENoblewrestling said:

They counted at our sectional.  Its a really interesting situation.  In theory a girl could be 20-0 in girls events and get the #1 seed at their weight in sectional.  For that reason I am against counting the girls event records toward the varsity events. 

It would be somewhat similar to counting a wrestler's JV record toward their varsity record. That is not to take away from the girls event in any way, just to say that it is wrestling outside of the normal varsity schedule.

While writing this I began to wonder... if two wrestlers were to face off during the season at a JV event would that count for a head to head win in sectional seeding?  I do not know that I have ever seen that situation come up.

Years ago we counted a JV contest for seeding two wrestlers at sectional.

[CoachSanabria]

22 hours ago, ENoblewrestling said:

They counted at our sectional.  Its a really interesting situation.  In theory a girl could be 20-0 in girls events and get the #1 seed at their weight in sectional.  For that reason I am against counting the girls event records toward the varsity events. 

It would be somewhat similar to counting a wrestler's JV record toward their varsity record. That is not to take away from the girls event in any way, just to say that it is wrestling outside of the normal varsity schedule.

While writing this I began to wonder... if two wrestlers were to face off during the season at a JV event would that count for a head to head win in sectional seeding?  I do not know that I have ever seen that situation come up.

The rules says that Head to Head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. 

[MattM]

37 minutes ago, CoachSanabria said:

The rules says that Head to Head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. 

But it also points out right at the start of the seeding criteria that  “Varsity contests shall be the only records counted for seeding consideration.”   So the phrase later on sat  “any level of inter scholastic competition” seems a little of a grey area when that phrase is right at the start.  The intent may have actually been to make sure both dual and  tournament matches including consols/placement are to be counted.  Obviously a part of the rules that could use some clarificstion.  Then the following phrase in the same head to head criteria “matches against  teammates are not counted” seems completely out of place being one wrestler per team in IN can enter in a weight class. 

 

Either way it seems pretty unlikely two wrestlers with a decent shot at being seeded would meet in a JV match.  

Edited February 27, 2022 by MattM

[CoachSanabria]

9 minutes ago, MattM said:

But it also points out right at the start that Varsity contests shall be the only ones used for seeding purposes.   So the phrase “any level of inter scholastic competition” seems a little of a grey area when that phrase is right at the start.

 

Either way it seems pretty unlikely two wrestlers with a decent shot at being seeded would meet in a JV match.  

Yeah I would agree that it is unlikely. It seems strange to say only count varsity contests towards records but if you win a head to head at the JV level then you go ahead of that wrestler. Seems like the rule needs to be a little clearer. 

[LionsFan]

1 hour ago, MattM said:

But it also points out right at the start of the seeding criteria that  “Varsity contests shall be the only records counted for seeding consideration.”   So the phrase later on sat  “any level of inter scholastic competition” seems a little of a grey area when that phrase is right at the start.  The intent may have actually been to make sure both dual and  tournament matches including consols/placement are to be counted.  Obviously a part of the rules that could use some clarificstion.  Then the following phrase in the same head to head criteria “matches against  teammates are not counted” seems completely out of place being one wrestler per team in IN can enter in a weight class. 

 

Either way it seems pretty unlikely two wrestlers with a decent shot at being seeded would meet in a JV match.  

You only count varsity matches towards the wrestlers record, but when you are doing the seeding, if two wrestlers compete at the JV level, then you can use that.

[Matt Time]

Back to the original question, for sectional seeding we did NOT use girls records from the girls only tournaments (there were five of them, seven if you include regionals and state). This despite those events being two point weigh-ins that DID count in the IHSAA system. This further demonstrates the need for girls wrestling to be separated out as its own sport, IMHO.

 

I would also add there was plenty of time last weekend in which the mats were not being used at Gainbridge to have afforded the Girls State Finals to have been conducted there with almost zero disruption to the boys finals. Just sayin'.  

[XCard]

2 hours ago, Matt Time said:

Back to the original question, for sectional seeding we did NOT use girls records from the girls only tournaments (there were five of them, seven if you include regionals and state). This despite those events being two point weigh-ins that DID count in the IHSAA system. This further demonstrates the need for girls wrestling to be separated out as its own sport, IMHO.

 

I would also add there was plenty of time last weekend in which the mats were not being used at Gainbridge to have afforded the Girls State Finals to have been conducted there with almost zero disruption to the boys finals. Just sayin'.  

Are we sure that these count toward their IHSAA point schedule? I can see why the team state would, but the girls events I feel are unique in the fact that boys are not allowed to enter these contests. Can anyone show me were this was ruled upon?

[Y2CJ41]

1 hour ago, XCard said:

Are we sure that these count toward their IHSAA point schedule? I can see why the team state would, but the girls events I feel are unique in the fact that boys are not allowed to enter these contests. Can anyone show me were this was ruled upon?

Any time an athlete participates in an IHSAA event it counts for points on their schedule. Whether it's a JV, Varsity, or Girls only event. For a dual meet that is 1 point, for a multi-team(3+) event it's 2 points. If it's a multi-team event and the athlete only wrestles once, it still counts as two points.

 

The Girls state series(regional and state) count as two points total and not four as it would if it were a "normal" event. This was an exception given by the IHSAA. The girls regional and state, while not a IHSAA state event is a sanctioned wrestling event and thus counts as points on an athletes schedule.

[Matt Time]

This is correct. The girls events are under IHSAA rules, referees and weigh in procedures/points system. Though somehow not “varsity” per se. So you burn weigh in points, but can’t count the win/loss record for these events in seeding the boys sectionals. I have 8 girls on the team and this really doesn’t bother me. There were multiple college coaches recruiting at each of the girls events this year. The girls got great experience and exposure doing these events with some top notch college programs (invitations to visit, camps, RTCs, workouts, etc). If we keep building those kinds of opportunities for the girls, I’ll be exceedingly happy.  

[ENoblewrestling]

11 hours ago, Matt Time said:

This is correct. The girls events are under IHSAA rules, referees and weigh in procedures/points system. Though somehow not “varsity” per se. So you burn weigh in points, but can’t count the win/loss record for these events in seeding the boys sectionals. I have 8 girls on the team and this really doesn’t bother me. There were multiple college coaches recruiting at each of the girls events this year. The girls got great experience and exposure doing these events with some top notch college programs (invitations to visit, camps, RTCs, workouts, etc). If we keep building those kinds of opportunities for the girls, I’ll be exceedingly happy.  

Our sectional was told that the records should be counted.