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17 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

Can you please define "bad product"?

Less than or not as cool as we have now. 

 

Just think that if the assigned seating went that bad (something that people asked for for years), that a totally changed tournament will be 10x worse. Again, just an opinion. Not a policy maker here. 

 

I just picture something like Ohios. Go watch video. My sons teammates at Ohio all won state there. They always talk to me about how cool our state is. Those are the factors that im basing my opinion on. I could be wrong. They do not understand no wrestle backs tho!!!

 

Heatlhy conversation. I appreciate all of you guys. Please don't get mad or take my opinions in the wrong way. 

Edited by Mattyb
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24 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So the answer to my question is there is no breaking point for you. You don't care if there are 5 programs or 500 in this state. Point made, you only care about the top level kids. As I stated earlier, the 5-25 kids are just as important and really in all honestly more important to the sport than the 40-0 kids. You only care about the 40-0 kids.

Nope. Clearly care.... Just dont think classing will be an option anytime soon for the IHSAA and am suggesting that we look at other options and solutions other than telling kids at small schools to work harder, stating stats and not taking action, and posting that we should class individual state.

 

As far as kids... I have some really bad kids on my team. Some haven't won a match all year. I assure you that I work with my sub 500 kids WAYYY more than my studs.  My studs get help at home and at academies, I spent much more of my time with the 5-25 kids, as we have those kids too. I love all of my kids and tell that to them daily. But.. I just coach middle school so that may not count. I choose to contribute at that level because most don't want too. Its fun!!!

 

BTW... I cant fill a whole team this year. I just couldn't get big guys. It sucks!!! Not high school, but I actually do feel the frustration. 

Edited by Mattyb
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35 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Less than or not as cool as we have now. 

 

Just think that if the assigned seating went that bad (something that people asked for for years), that a totally changed tournament will be 10x worse. Again, just an opinion. Not a policy maker here. 

 

I just picture something like Ohios. Go watch video. My sons teammates at Ohio all won state there. They always talk to me about how cool our state is. Those are the factors that im basing my opinion on. I could be wrong. They do not understand no wrestle backs tho!!!

 

Heatlhy conversation. I appreciate all of you guys. Please don't get mad or take my opinions in the wrong way. 

 

Well, we can definitely agree that our state tournament is a great atmosphere. It just doesn't seem like the best way to make these kinds of decisions is a cool tournament.

 

We also agree that this is a healthy conversation. For those who hate the debate, understand that sometimes when you debate one problem, you indirectly find solutions to other problems. Or at least find common ground and can begin working toward solutions for other problems.

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5 hours ago, Mattyb said:

You say something like this every time, but never suggest anything but maybe we class individual state. Again... more stats and no solutions. SMH

 

How many small school kids win IHPO? Maybe we class it. It's a VERY important tournament. 

 

Nobody is saying that there isnt a problem. Nobody wants programs to fold. I clearly think that classing individual state will result in a bad product. It's just an opinion. But.. suggesting that people not supporting classing individual state is resulting is leading programs to fail and that those people dont care is not accurate.

This is a much easier viewpoint to hold from a big school perspective with lots of resources compared to the other side of the coin

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7 hours ago, greco165 said:

This is a much easier viewpoint to hold from a big school perspective with lots of resources compared to the other side of the coin

No kidding smart guy. Go back and actually read my post. I admit that I am currently involved in a big program. But I’ve been around a long time and have had the opportunity to be around kids from all corners of the state and from all walks of life. And believe it or not .. not every kid on my team comes from a wealthy family. I share my resources with the kids that need it as much as possible. My point is that the same guys get on here and provide the same facts, stats and opinions but offer little to no solutions. I have also agreed that there are issues that need to be addressed. Again… classing individual state isn’t happing anytime soon. We need some ideas. And.. again.. I think Cascade and Rochester are examples of teams that are doing great. Seeing what they are doing. May help others. 

So people that live in heavily populated areas can’t speak on this issue and we don’t care about the small schools? Wrong buddy..  a lot of us do care. Told you before… go troll someone else. 

 

Edited by Mattyb
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4 hours ago, CFleshman said:

Nope we just move from a power house program to a bigger and more powerful  program. Why not a school that could use the help? It's so easy when your looking down at the rest of the state. 

So what your saying is…. when a coach signs a contract at a school it’s for life. Coaches don’t leave schools and sign contracts with new schools? Everyone from my old school is gone. The house was cleaned out. Most of us have new jobs though. When I hang it up at the school I’m at now.. I may buy some land and move. Wherever I end up.. I will help for sure. I promise you if I didn’t have my job that I have now, I would go to the nearest program that had an opening and would help. At this time.. It’s just best for me to have a 5 minute drive to the school.
 

I guess that suggesting that all of us (including myself) can do more and need to brainstorm solutions is looking down on the rest of the state. Sorry to rub you the wrong way. I apologize. 
 

I have actually coached teams (off season stuff) with a guy from Central Noble before. With that said… I do get your struggles. Actually years ago… I offered a really good Central

Noble wrestler to come down and stay with us for awhile over the summer to train. While we spoke about it, it never happened. 
 

Btw… congrats on the HOF..  I’m sure that we can all learn a lot from you. Again.. apologize if I rubbed you wrong. A man of your stature deserves respect. 

Edited by Mattyb
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39 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

No kidding smart guy. Go back and actually read my post. I admit that I am currently involved in a big program. But I’ve been around a long time and have had the opportunity to be around kids from all corners of the state and from all walks of life. And believe it or not .. not every kid on my team comes from a wealthy family. I share my resources with the kids that need it as much as possible. My point is that the same guys get on here and provide the same facts, stats and opinions but offer little to no solutions. I have also agreed that there are issues that need to be addressed. Again… classing individual state isn’t happing anytime soon. We need some ideas. And.. again.. I think Cascade and Rochester are examples of teams that are doing great. Seeing what they are doing. May help others. 

So people that live in heavily populated areas can’t speak on this issue and we don’t care about the small schools? Wrong buddy..  a lot of us do care. Told you before… go troll someone else. 

 

Smart guy I am, and I won't back down from a fight. I've lived both sides of this. I grew up in a lower income family that was fortunate enough live in an affluent district that became a small school powerhouse program. For reference, because you clearly have none, my graduating class had 145 students. How does that compare to most top ranked programs? 1/4, 1/5? Maybe? Not singling any one school out, just speaking generally. We see what happens at state. There are some privileged individuals who start life on third base and feel like they hit a triple. To not acknowledge your advantages is shallow. It may not speak for an entire team, but it speaks for most.

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54 minutes ago, greco165 said:

Smart guy I am, and I won't back down from a fight. I've lived both sides of this. I grew up in a lower income family that was fortunate enough live in an affluent district that became a small school powerhouse program. For reference, because you clearly have none, my graduating class had 145 students. How does that compare to most top ranked programs? 1/4, 1/5? Maybe? Not singling any one school out, just speaking generally. We see what happens at state. There are some privileged individuals who start life on third base and feel like they hit a triple. To not acknowledge your advantages is shallow. It may not speak for an entire team, but it speaks for most.

Sooo … what your saying is wrestling is like CRT? People are either oppressed (have reference) or oppressors (have no reference)? If your from a small school or poorer area you are oppressed and if you happen to grow up near or live near a large suburban school your most likely born “on third base” and feel greater then? Those entitled people have no clue what it’s like to be oppressed, have no reference and should just have no opinions. Is that what your saying? 
 

btw..  I grew up in many apartments on the west side of Indianapolis in the 90s with my single mom. Do I still have no reference? 
 

For the fifth time in this thread. I currently am a part of a large program. But.. I want to see more small schools have success like Rochester and Cascade. There are many people that are a part of bigger programs that root for smaller schools to succeed.
 

Not going to apologize for my current job. Just chimed in the express how proud of @QuinnHarris(a guy that I took to tournaments when he was a kid) I am, and express that it would be cool to see other small teams have the “wrestling opportunities” (name of this thread) that he is providing for his guys.  
 

Also to say how @aoberlin is doing something awesome! 
 

next thing you know…. I suggest that classed state isn’t going to happen soon and that I’m not confident that the IHSAA would do it well. Then!!!!… a classic class wrestling thread breaks out (complete with stats) and I get accused of being an elite-ist and pretty sure multiple other types of ist! 🤦‍♂️ 


All in good fun though! 

Edited by Mattyb
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Thank you for the HOF mention. I know exactly what young man you are referring to. He was my most driven kid I ever coached. One full season of HS wrestling is all he was able to get. He has so much to give back to the sport. I have tried to get him into a room he's just not ready yet. Hopefully he does someday.

 

You state that class wrestling will not help small schools. Then say it's not happening anytime soon. It will take alot for it to ever happen unfortunately. So 10-15 years from now if Cascade has the same staff with 5-10 qualifiers and a couple of 🏅 it's still not a disadvantage.

 

If we had 2 classes the top 8 wouldn't change much at all. Add another 8 meadals that's alot more young men with experience to give back after their career is over. That is what would help our sport grow at all levels.

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3 hours ago, CFleshman said:

Thank you for the HOF mention. I know exactly what young man you are referring to. He was my most driven kid I ever coached. One full season of HS wrestling is all he was able to get. He has so much to give back to the sport. I have tried to get him into a room he's just not ready yet. Hopefully he does someday.

 

You state that class wrestling will not help small schools. Then say it's not happening anytime soon. It will take alot for it to ever happen unfortunately. So 10-15 years from now if Cascade has the same staff with 5-10 qualifiers and a couple of 🏅 it's still not a disadvantage.

 

If we had 2 classes the top 8 wouldn't change much at all. Add another 8 meadals that's alot more young men with experience to give back after their career is over. That is what would help our sport grow at all levels.

Coach I never said that classing individual team state will absolutely not help numbers or small schools. 
 

I said that classing individual state isn’t going to happen anytime soon and we need to look for other solutions to bolster smaller programs. I have nothing to do with not classing state. Most likely nobody on this message board does. 
 

I also said that I have no faith that if the IHSAA would class team state that it would be close to what we have now. I think that our state would then look like the other state finals that I watch every year on Flo and track. They are good events but not anywhere close to what we get to experience every year. So… we all need to ask ourselves.. are we willing to make the change from what we have now at Gainbridge with the possibility of what other states do? Do we think that the IHSAA will provide anywhere close to what we have now? Are they even willing to make the change? 
 

Clearly you, Joe, Galore and 165 think that overhauling our state finals will lead to saving small programs and you all could be right. I’m simply suggesting for now we come together, brainstorm, and look at current successful smaller programs to see what else can be done now. 

 

With that said.. I don’t want to see what we have now end now.  I’m sorry I’m just being honest. And… since I have worked for one large program and now work for another large program and don’t want to see the change yet, and I’m being told that “I don’t have reference” “I just go to powerhouse programs” “I’m good with programs failing” “I think kids without means should just work harder” “I don’t care about kids with losing records” … Pretty much attacking me for suggesting we look at other solutions. It’s easy to do when a guy puts his actual name and thoughts on a message board. None of that is true. I assure you all that I love Indiana wrestling and have put a lot of time and money doing my part to help grow our sport. I would just like to explore other avenues before we change state. I guess that I am the only one with this view and / or the only one who’s currently at a larger program that’s willing to say it publicly. Well maybe me and Drunk Joe. 
 

Again.. healthy conversation. But.. let’s stop making the above assumptions. 
 

 

Edited by Mattyb
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7 hours ago, greco165 said:

Smart guy I am, and I won't back down from a fight. 


** So long as we class the fight according to city size, to be fair.

 

7 hours ago, greco165 said:

There are some privileged individuals who start life on third base and feel like they hit a triple.


Privileged? In the sport of wrestling. What is happening in this world?
 

If I was privileged my old man would not have worked in a steel mill 70 hours a week and I’d have played golf at our summer home in FL. Give me a break.

 

I hope you don’t coach, if you do I REALLY hope you don’t drag this talk into your room. I don’t hate what you’re fighting for, I just disagree, but I hate your argument.

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A few thoughts...

 

1. Let's not get ourselves back into the routine of sarcastic responses, assuming the worst of people, and general negative debate tactics. It most certainly feels good and will get you quite a few "Hell Yeah!"s from your side, but it is not productive in a problem solving or mind changing sense.

 

2. Everyone is free to like our current state tournament from a fan perspective. Everyone probably does like our current state tournament from a fan perspective. However, liking something from a fan perspective does not make for adequate reasoning when deciding on a contest between children.

 

3. Small schools need help - this is true whether we have one class or 6 classes. If you are from a bigger, more successful program, consider looking a town or two over. Maybe there is a program that needs some help from a person who has been part of a winner. It's easy to stay in the comfort zone, and it's always fun to win. It's especially fun to win with people you've been working alongside practically your whole life. However, for the good of the sport, consider looking up a small town or struggling community that's close and see if they could use some of your experience with success.

Edited by Galagore
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I have had the opportunity to coach at a small school (North Montgomery), where we had a great run, and now at a big school (Center Grove). In my experience, I would say the biggest difference is small schools deal with a lot of multi-sport athletes with wrestling being their 2nd-3rd favorite sport. Once we were able to get our guys to commit to some offseason training we saw our results get better and better. I would say we did the majority of our offseason training in our wrestling room, we had a couple guys that traveled to academies (no academies within 90 mins) but not nearly as many as we have at Center Grove (two major academies within 30 mins). I do think that if we had an academy close to North Montgomery we would have had many more athletes taking advantage of that opportunity. Also, the classed team state tournament was a big help as well as far as getting kids to come out for the sport. The publicity of being "ranked" high as a team each year allowed kids to believe that there was a championship as a team that we could realistically win. This helped us pick up some of the better athletes and also convinced our guys that putting in some offseason training was important. As far as the individual tournament not being classed, I do not think that affected our success in a negative way. In my opinion, the key is getting the kids involved in wrestling early and hoping that wrestling turns into their top sport. There is no secret that the majority of the individual state placers start wrestling as elementary/middle schoolers and put in a fair amount of offseason training. For small schools, the earlier you can get kids involved and enjoying the sport, the more success you will have. That is easier said than done though as it is easier to be the "top" athlete at your school in the popular sports in elementary/middle school at small schools than at a big school.

 

Sorry for the long post

Edited by swain358
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/25/2022 at 8:33 AM, swain358 said:

I have had the opportunity to coach at a small school (North Montgomery), where we had a great run, and now at a big school (Center Grove). In my experience, I would say the biggest difference is small schools deal with a lot of multi-sport athletes with wrestling being their 2nd-3rd favorite sport. Once we were able to get our guys to commit to some offseason training we saw our results get better and better. I would say we did the majority of our offseason training in our wrestling room, we had a couple guys that traveled to academies (no academies within 90 mins) but not nearly as many as we have at Center Grove (two major academies within 30 mins). I do think that if we had an academy close to North Montgomery we would have had many more athletes taking advantage of that opportunity. Also, the classed team state tournament was a big help as well as far as getting kids to come out for the sport. The publicity of being "ranked" high as a team each year allowed kids to believe that there was a championship as a team that we could realistically win. This helped us pick up some of the better athletes and also convinced our guys that putting in some offseason training was important. As far as the individual tournament not being classed, I do not think that affected our success in a negative way. In my opinion, the key is getting the kids involved in wrestling early and hoping that wrestling turns into their top sport. There is no secret that the majority of the individual state placers start wrestling as elementary/middle schoolers and put in a fair amount of offseason training. For small schools, the earlier you can get kids involved and enjoying the sport, the more success you will have. That is easier said than done though as it is easier to be the "top" athlete at your school in the popular sports in elementary/middle school at small schools than at a big school.

 

Sorry for the long post

Mo Swain I appreciate the comment, no names but I know you and Skinner from the way back coming to train with us, y'all were studs. Your perspective perfectly encapsulates the small school experience.

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On 2/25/2022 at 7:28 AM, DrunkJoeNamath said:


** So long as we class the fight according to city size, to be fair.

 


Privileged? In the sport of wrestling. What is happening in this world?
 

If I was privileged my old man would not have worked in a steel mill 70 hours a week and I’d have played golf at our summer home in FL. Give me a break.

 

I hope you don’t coach, if you do I REALLY hope you don’t drag this talk into your room. I don’t hate what you’re fighting for, I just disagree, but I hate your argument.

Genius, I'm not referring to you, I'm speaking generally. Privilege affords many opportunities the average person can't access.

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2 hours ago, greco165 said:

Genius, I'm not referring to you, I'm speaking generally. Privilege affords many opportunities the average person can't access.

So wokeness and privilege has made itself to this message board. C’mon man!!! We are better then this. 
 

I grew up in a broken home but have provided a much better lives for my kids. I did foundry work for 15 years before making the change to real estate and doing much better. Should my kids feel guilt? Are my kids privileged? These are serious questions. Most of us have had tough times. 
 

Why is @DrunkJoeNamath a “genius” for being curious of what is considered to be privileged. And furthermore.. do we really want to go down this hole?  
 

Clearly some families are disadvantaged. Can we all just agree on that and move off this privileged argument? 

Edited by Mattyb
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23 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

So wokeness and privilege has made itself to this message board. C’mon man!!! We are better then this. 
 

I grew up in a broken home but have provided a much better lives for my kids. I did foundry work for 15 years before making the change to real estate and doing much better. Should my kids feel guilt? Are my kids privileged? These are serious questions. 
 

Why is @DrunkJoeNamath a “genius” for being curious of what is considered to be privileged. And furthermore.. do we really want to go down this hole?  
 

Clearly some families are disadvantaged. Can we all just agree on that and move off this privileged argument? 

If you equate wokeness with privilege have mercy on your soul

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19 minutes ago, greco165 said:

If you equate wokeness with privilege have mercy on your soul

I guess. I’ll be honest… I’m clueless about that. I just try to do my best to be good to everyone and treat everyone the same and with respect. Golden rule for me. Old school and out of touch I guess. 

Edited by Mattyb
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