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4 hours ago, DrunkJoeNamath said:

 

In high school, when there’s always a guy on the team who has access to a car, “no accessibility” is just an easier way of saying “I wrestle 4 months out of the year. 

Whatever makes you feel better bro. It just seems more logical to acknowledge that inequities exist and people benefit from them.

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4 hours ago, base said:

I think I understand that you're shaking your head because there haven't been academy-type opportunities in NE Indiana

 

But what is your opinion on the Ben Davis / Brownsburg situation.  Both large enrollment.  Same vicinity with "access" to academies.  Very different participation and outcomes

What's the average household income between the two districts? I think you'll find your answer there.

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27 minutes ago, greco165 said:

Whatever makes you feel better bro. It just seems more logical to acknowledge that inequities exist and people benefit from them.


Inequities do exist. 
 

Some people are state champions, lots of people are not. I personally don’t think the size of your school *negatively* affects your ability to become one. I believe it’s a multitude of things, and that’s why it’s difficult to accomplish. 

Edited by DrunkJoeNamath
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15 minutes ago, DrunkJoeNamath said:


Inequities do exist. 
 

Some people are state champions, lots of people are not. I personally don’t think the size of your school affects your ability to become one. I believe it’s a multitude of things, and that’s why it’s difficult to accomplish. 

Why so many from big schools, then?

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4 hours ago, base said:

This just isn't true across the board at all

 

There are plenty of large schools that do not have these things - just take a closer look.  According to my google maps, Ben Davis HS is 8 miles away from Brownsburg HS.  Yet the recent trajectory of their programs couldn't be much further apart.  All large schools are not equal - the "haves" are those programs where they have consistently built up a group of young wrestlers. The "have nots" are those where wrestling is an in-season sport and is an afterthought until the athletes are in high school.

 

 

Very true. Typically, success breeds more success. Just comparing BB and BD a little since it was brought up and their comparable access to clubs, rtc's, clinics, etc. 

 

Look at what Brownsburg has done since 2014: 147 dual wins and all types of team accolades, 50+ qualifiers, 40+ medalists, 6 state champs (probably off a little somewhere) 

 

Ben Davis since 2014: 60ish dual wins, 8 qualifiers, 5 placers,1 champ (probably off a little too)

 

The BD kids have similar opportunities due to their proximity to Brownsburg, Indy, and so on.Just because the opportunities are more accessible to certain schools of similar size in certain areas of the state, some schools just aren't going to have that same type of success.   

 

Different schools = different kids, as well as different coaches, parents, admin, etc., with different interests and goals too.

 

Some kids/parents may choose to pick up and move schools to pursue those opportunities at other places because they have the means in which to do so.  Other kids/parents may choose not to, maybe they don't have the means to do so either.

 

I am not sure if there is a one size fits all approach to balance or fix things.  Mat time, lots of exposure to multiple coaches and practices partners, camps, clinics, off-season events, setting goals and working towards them, seeking out tough competition, making sacrifices.....there is so much to do in order to reach that pinnacle.

 

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2 hours ago, Mattyb said:

We get it. Similar stats and numbers get posted on this site time and time again. Clearly the IHSAA is not going to change. So… the question is what can we do?? Oh wait… @aoberlin is trying something! This is why we are all rooting for him and supporting his efforts.

 

Support Andy and guys like him. Support RTCs or RWAs in smaller communities. No doubt that I choose to live in a heavily populated area, but I truly care about all of Indiana wrestling. Hopefully we can evolve and get more and more opportunities in smaller communities. 
 

Btw… my middle school team wrestled Cascade last night. They gave us all that we wanted. Those guys are not a flash in the pan. 1A…. You’ve been put on notice. My guys have started something special out there. It’s going to continue to grow. 
 

#LessStatsMoreDoing

Thank you Matt! We are headed in the right direction!
 

The Cascade team will be all over the place this summer. I think the difference is providing opportunities. Provide as many free opportunities as you can when it comes to practice/training. Offer to take kids to local RTCs and Open Rooms. Do whatever you can to give these kids every opportunity they could possibly want! At every single level from HS - Youth.

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10 hours ago, QuinnHarris said:

Thank you Matt! We are headed in the right direction!
 

The Cascade team will be all over the place this summer. I think the difference is providing opportunities. Provide as many free opportunities as you can when it comes to practice/training. Offer to take kids to local RTCs and Open Rooms. Do whatever you can to give these kids every opportunity they could possibly want! At every single level from HS - Youth.

These guys are very young coaches that mostly went to Avon during the programs best years. They have decided to take that successful big school mentality to a small rural community. These guys are making wrestling the cool thing to do at Cascade. They are getting all the good athletes in that community to buy in. They are also are putting egos aside and encouraging them to get additional training anyway possible. They are also creating offseason opportunities for the kids to keep wrestling year round. If a kid wants to wrestle, they make it happen one way or another.  No excuses, just make it happen. That my friends is how you build it. 
 

As far as lack of partners… these young dudes wrestle with the kids. If you don’t have a staff that can do this, it’s time to get the contact list for the last 5 or 6 seasons out, and let those dudes know that it is time to come to the room a few days a week to give back. 

Edited by Mattyb
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9 hours ago, QuinnHarris said:

Thank you Matt! We are headed in the right direction!
 

The Cascade team will be all over the place this summer. I think the difference is providing opportunities. Provide as many free opportunities as you can when it comes to practice/training. Offer to take kids to local RTCs and Open Rooms. Do whatever you can to give these kids every opportunity they could possibly want! At every single level from HS - Youth.

 

Playing devil's advocate here.  Google tells me that Cascade has an enrollment of around 450 students +/-

 

Quinn - it is absolutely amazing what you've done and I have nothing but praise. This example is not an attack in any way to the job you are doing.

 

But - small schools in general... all of us here are very wrestling-focused.  In my opinion, what Quinn is doing is exactly the right strategy - provide free opportunities, quality coaching, build the youth program and build bonds among the wrestlers/parents as early as possible.

 

However - the flip side to all of these opportunities, RTCs, Open rooms and a growing wrestling program is that other programs/sports within the school (who have drawn from that same small pool of potential athletes) are going to go downhill. 

 

That's the conundrum at small schools - but at the same time it's their charm. 

 

An athlete *can* be a three-sports letter winner.  Most of these small school programs are saying they want to have state winners via a classed system and that will "grow the sport".  Not arguing that it might within some schools (like large schools - will likely be those with coaches who take steps like Quinn and small school powerhouses will be developed). 

 

My argument is that maybe they *shouldn't* focus on one sport - small schools should embrace what they are and have their focus be developing more three-sport athletes. There will still be those generational athletes that come along that shine within any system.  In my opinion their programs should work together and realize that turning a small pool of athletes into one-sport participants may be great for a single sport, but not necessarily what is always best for the school or the kids.  Just my opinion

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3 minutes ago, base said:

 

Playing devil's advocate here.  Google tells me that Cascade has an enrollment of around 450 students +/-

 

Quinn - it is absolutely amazing what you've done and I have nothing but praise. This example is not an attack in any way to the job you are doing.

 

But - small schools in general... all of us here are very wrestling-focused.  In my opinion, what Quinn is doing is exactly the right strategy - provide free opportunities, quality coaching, build the youth program and build bonds among the wrestlers/parents as early as possible.

 

However - the flip side to all of these opportunities, RTCs, Open rooms and a growing wrestling program is that other programs/sports within the school (who have drawn from that same small pool of potential athletes) are going to go downhill. 

 

That's the conundrum at small schools - but at the same time it's their charm. 

 

An athlete *can* be a three-sports letter winner.  Most of these small school programs are saying they want to have state winners via a classed system and that will "grow the sport".  Not arguing that it might within some schools (like large schools - will likely be those with coaches who take steps like Quinn and small school powerhouses will be developed). 

 

My argument is that maybe they *shouldn't* focus on one sport - small schools should embrace what they are and have their focus be developing more three-sport athletes. There will still be those generational athletes that come along that shine within any system.  In my opinion their programs should work together and realize that turning a small pool of athletes into one-sport participants may be great for a single sport, but not necessarily what is always best for the school or the kids.  Just my opinion

 

You hit my thoughts on the head 98%. The part about growing the sport was the only hitch. That used to be my stance, but I do not believe classing our tournament will do anything to grow the sport. Certainly no more than wrestle-backs at advanced levels of the tournament. My desire for class wrestling is rooted in the same place as others' (and mine, just mine is stronger for class) desire for wrestle-backs: fairness. If big schools and small schools are "playing the game" under different circumstances, then they should be competing in different state tournaments.

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41 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

You hit my thoughts on the head 98%. The part about growing the sport was the only hitch. That used to be my stance, but I do not believe classing our tournament will do anything to grow the sport. Certainly no more than wrestle-backs at advanced levels of the tournament. My desire for class wrestling is rooted in the same place as others' (and mine, just mine is stronger for class) desire for wrestle-backs: fairness. If big schools and small schools are "playing the game" under different circumstances, then they should be competing in different state tournaments.

Again… IHSAA is not going to do this for individual state. We have classes team state and now we have 1A and 2A state. We also have frosh-soph state. So more opportunities are being created. 
 

@Galagore you are so focused on individual state. We now have classed team state. The playing field for that is fairly even for that awesome event. An individual state title is not the only way to motivate wrestlers to be great. Teams and coaches now have other additional things to focus on. I may be wrong, but im pretty sure that’s what Rochester has done and now they are getting the individual results. 
 

Constantly asking for something that isn’t going to happen isn’t going to change anything. Constantly providing stats that reflect how bad small schools have it isn’t helping either. We need solutions. 
 

Set multiple goals, build a team and build a culture. Get dudes in to push the kids on and off the mat. Surround the program with like minded coaches that will take any kid anywhere. 
 

Our program is fortunate to have a guy like @mikemorgan. That dude coached his butt off at IHSAA state. The next day, we had one jv2 kid sign up for Indy Nationals. Mike was there til 10pm with that kid. No matter school size or team size… that’s what programs need. 
 

Seeing teams like Rochester and Cascade is very inspiring. 
 

I know… coming from a guy that is involved with a larger program… my opinion doesn’t count. Please know that I have been involved with youth wrestling for a long time and have coached and led teams with kids from all corners of the state. I truly want the best for them all. 

Edited by Mattyb
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5 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Again… IHSAA is not going to do this for individual state. We have classes team state and now we have 1A and 2A state. We also have frosh-soph state. So more opportunities are being created. 

 

They are not going to do wrestle-backs, either. We have folkstyle state, freestyle state, greco state, all with wrestle-backs. Wrestle-backs are still desired, and still hotly discussed on this board.

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Just now, Mattyb said:

Again… IHSAA is not going to do this for individual state. We have classes team state and now we have 1A and 2A state. We also have frosh-soph state. So more opportunities are being created. 


Bingo! Wrestling is more accessible now then it’s ever been and we need to do our part so that trend continues.
 

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48 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Same with girls state. We will not, and should not halt efforts to sanction girls wrestling, even though IHSWCA puts on a girls state wrestling tournament.


I agree. 
 

Some people just disagree with classing individual state, and I’m one of them. I say this because we were talking about results at the tournament this last weekend. 

 

Classing an IHSAA Team State Series, having IHSAA Girls State, and wrestle-backs for placement at individual state are awesome topics to discuss! 

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No one can argue that small school wrestling is thriving right now. There are some schools that are doing well, but overall many are struggling mightily. There are also schools that are big that are struggling also. There is no magic bullet that will turn them around. No matter the changes made, it will still take work to have success in this sport.

 

What we need to realize is that this sport needs the kids that go 5-25 just as much as we need those kids that go 40-0. There are way more kids in the state that go 5-25 than 40-0. One thing I have harped on many times is simply retention of athletes. This is not just an Indiana issue, it is nationwide. Wrestling coaches are great at recruiting kids, but very poor in retaining them.

 

Back in the 1900's as the kids say, I was literally the second true semi-state qualifier in Garrett history! The first was my sophomore year and we had two semi-state qualifiers my senior year in 1997. I would say I worked hard, went to camps, went to a lot of tournaments, etc. However, in order to be challenged I had to wrestle kids 20-30lbs bigger. I honestly wish I would have read the ISWA book closer as I didn't even realize there were RTCs at places like Snider and other locations where I would have loved to train. That is partially on me, but also the coaches who knew I wanted to train that never knew enough to say go check those things out. It still bugs me to this day that a training opportunity was right down the road that I had no clue about until I was way out of college.

 

What the programs that are struggling need is a spark, just a little one. Things like class wrestling can help that spark. It would be great if we didn't have to resort to wanting class wrestling, no one truly wants it with our great finals. However, for the health of the sport it might be a good solution.

 

There are other things that we can do to help retention and the health of the sport. One proposal I would love to see go through is have 14 entries at sectional and allow up to 2 entries per weight. The schools with 10ish kids will usually have a couple kids on JV that can't cut or gain enough weight to get into the lineup. There is literally no harm is letting them wrestle at sectional. This I feel would help retention of athletes greatly. Since the IHSAA seems to balk at the class wrestling thing, I think something like this is very doable.

 

 

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1 hour ago, base said:

 

Playing devil's advocate here.  Google tells me that Cascade has an enrollment of around 450 students +/-

 

Quinn - it is absolutely amazing what you've done and I have nothing but praise. This example is not an attack in any way to the job you are doing.

 

But - small schools in general... all of us here are very wrestling-focused.  In my opinion, what Quinn is doing is exactly the right strategy - provide free opportunities, quality coaching, build the youth program and build bonds among the wrestlers/parents as early as possible.

 

However - the flip side to all of these opportunities, RTCs, Open rooms and a growing wrestling program is that other programs/sports within the school (who have drawn from that same small pool of potential athletes) are going to go downhill. 

 

That's the conundrum at small schools - but at the same time it's their charm. 

 

An athlete *can* be a three-sports letter winner.  Most of these small school programs are saying they want to have state winners via a classed system and that will "grow the sport".  Not arguing that it might within some schools (like large schools - will likely be those with coaches who take steps like Quinn and small school powerhouses will be developed). 

 

My argument is that maybe they *shouldn't* focus on one sport - small schools should embrace what they are and have their focus be developing more three-sport athletes. There will still be those generational athletes that come along that shine within any system.  In my opinion their programs should work together and realize that turning a small pool of athletes into one-sport participants may be great for a single sport, but not necessarily what is always best for the school or the kids.  Just my opinion

Yes in a school of Cascades size many of your athletes will be involved in 1 if not 2 other sports. Us coaches have to be willing to work with these other coaches. Me and the football coach have a weekly conversation discussing schedules and other things so that these kids are able to attend every opportunity they want.

 

take these numbers for data my preseason workouts averaged 3 HS kids and 8 MS kids.

 

My HS squad had 20 wrestlers on it this season. Yes all 17 kids who were not able to be apart of our preseason were either on the football field, the soccer field, or the cross country team.

 

Also the first day of practice we only had 13 kids. I can promise you we would not have gotten a team state bid with just those 13. I challenged the boys to find a few new wrestlers by the end of the following week and we would take a day away from practice to play games and have fun. Without these extra kids Cascade would’ve been in a position they have found themselves in for a while. Competing without a full lineup. Not finding team success. Not having fun. 
 

Joe said it best some of us are great recruiters but not all of us keep all of those kids we bring in. I am happy to say all 7 extra boys who joined the team late were all at practice last week helping our first State Qualifier since 2014 prepare for the big dance.

 

At the end of the day I will say this. Building success takes a TON of time, effort, and support. From assistant coaches, parents, and even the kids. Take opinions some of them you’ll listen to and make changes some you won’t and that’s okay. My main thing would be as a coach be willing to change to help your athlete! Not every kid is the same!

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IHSAA totally messed up assigned seating. Now people are suggesting for them to blow up the whole state tournament and make a classed tournament. If it ever was to happen, I don’t think we would have anything even close to what we have now. Are we all willing to do this just on the maybe that it may help retain kids? 
 

Again, I think that we need to focus on setting multiple goals (including an individual state title). State is one tournament and not the end all be all (this was told to me by an IHSAA state champ). That same state champ never placed and signed a full ride D1 scholarship prior to winning that state title. That reflects the importance of doing and focusing on other things. We as coaches and leaders need to do more also (as a whole). Let’s start by setting record numbers at frosh/Soph state this weekend and then at ISWA state after. Let’s keep these kids grinding. 

Edited by Mattyb
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2 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

IHSAA totally messed up assigned seating. Now people are suggesting for them to blow up the whole state tournament and make a classed tournament. If it ever was to happen, I don’t think we would have anything even close to what we have now. Are we all willing to do this just on the maybe that it may help retain kids? 
 

Again, I think that we need to focus on setting multiple goals (including an individual state title). State is one tournament and not the end all be all (this was told to me by an IHSAA state champ). We as coaches and leaders need to do more also (as a whole). Let’s start by setting record numbers at frosh/Soph state this weekend and then at ISWA state after. Let’s keep these kids grinding. 

If you want to go to extremes, would you be fine with there only being 50 schools with wrestling in the state?

 

We have seen some schools recently fail to sponsor wrestling like Blue River Valley, Oldenburg Academy, and Wood Memorial. We have had upwards of 315 programs in the state over the past 15 years. We are down to 305 with some schools choosing not to sponsor the sport and a few consolidations.

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We are back to the work harder mentally. Why are kids leaving small schools to chase their wrestling goals? Easy better facilities, coaches,workout partners and support from within. It's easy to say what needs to be done to have success. Go get a job at a small school and see. If it is that easy to have small school success with all this hard work why aren't more coaches trying. How many 500 or less are having state tournament success? Of those how many are within 30 minutes of a high end Academies. The Fort Wrestling facility is a blessing for us. It going to make a difference for us. 

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If you want to go to extremes, would you be fine with there only being 50 schools with wrestling in the state?

 

We have seen some schools recently fail to sponsor wrestling like Blue River Valley, Oldenburg Academy, and Wood Memorial. We have had upwards of 315 programs in the state over the past 15 years. We are down to 305 with some schools choosing not to sponsor the sport and a few consolidations.

You say something like this every time, but never suggest anything but maybe we class individual state. Again... more stats and no solutions. SMH

 

How many small school kids win IHPO? Maybe we class it. It's a VERY important tournament. 

 

Nobody is saying that there isnt a problem. Nobody wants programs to fold. I clearly think that classing individual state will result in a bad product. It's just an opinion. But.. suggesting that people not supporting classing individual state is resulting is leading programs to fail and that those people dont care is not accurate. Classing is not up to me. I just realize that it is most likely not going to happen. AGAIN, less stats and more solutions. We HAVE to work with the current hand that we have been delt. 

 

@CFleshmanI dont think that its a work harder mentality for the kids (which is another argument that needs to die). But.. I do think it is a work harder mentality for us coaches. Meaning that we have to figure something out and create more opportunities and solutions. BTW.. the forfeit data this year was awesome (as we are dealing with Covid). Hopefully it continues to get better.  

Edited by Mattyb
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8 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

You say something like this every time, but never suggest anything but maybe we class individual state. Again... more stats and no solutions. SMH

 

How many small school kids win IHPO? Maybe we class it. It's a VERY important tournament. 

 

Nobody is saying that there isnt a problem. Nobody wants programs to fold. I clearly think that classing individual state will result in a bad product. It's just an opinion. But.. suggesting that people not supporting classing individual state is resulting in the fall of programs and that those people dont care is not accurate. Classing is not up to me. I just realize that it is most likely not going to happen. AGAIN, less stats and more solutions. We HAVE to work with the current hand that we have been delt. 

 

Can you please define "bad product"?

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8 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

You say something like this every time, but never suggest anything but maybe we class individual state. Again... more stats and no solutions. SMH

 

How many small school kids win IHPO? Maybe we class it. It's a VERY important tournament. 

 

Nobody is saying that there isnt a problem. Nobody wants programs to fold. I clearly think that classing individual state will result in a bad product. It's just an opinion. But.. suggesting that people not supporting classing individual state is resulting in the fall of programs and that those people dont care is not accurate. Classing is not up to me. I just realize that it is most likely not going to happen. AGAIN, less stats and more solutions. We HAVE to work with the current hand that we have been delt. 

So the answer to my question is there is no breaking point for you. You don't care if there are 5 programs or 500 in this state. Point made, you only care about the top level kids. As I stated earlier, the 5-25 kids are just as important and really in all honestly more important to the sport than the 40-0 kids. You only care about the 40-0 kids.

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