Wrestle Backs

[huntergreen]

I am very new to this forum and just recently began following Indiana high school wrestling.  Can someone explain to me the rationale for not having wrestle backs at the regional, semi state or even the state tourney?  This seems like such a disservice to the kids who put hours into their training just to go to the biggest tournament of their lives and have it end after one match... 

 

Why is this format the accepted method?  Who made this decision?  Is it what is best for the sport and the athletes competing? 

[Caleb Spires]

Oh, you’re gonna fit in nicely here.

[MattM]

For this years version of the discussion start here and work your way down the rest of the thread. 

 

 

[awill0352]

I was just getting ready to say that I just asked this a few days ago.   Basically IHSAA won’t budge on this even though many if not most states do wrestle backs.   It makes entirely no sense to even us novice wrestling fans.  

[formercollegekid]

Ihsaa is not super wrestling friendly.....

 

I will give credit where credit is due we had a state tournament last year... albeit a modified one.

 

The best way I can explain it @huntergreen is that the ihsaa only cares about the champ.... thats it 14 kids.

 

While we as wrestling fans see the impact and importance a state qualifier or state placer has on a kid, family, program and often a whole community.... the ihsaa does not. THEY ONLY WANT THE CHAMP. Sad but true

[formercollegekid]

I honestly wish I knew the answer to changing their mind. 

 

I dont want to get into the "class" wrestling debate.  But wrestle backs... or maybe a 24 man bracket at state (more qualifiers) would definitely help get more national exposure and recruitment to college programs.

 

Every year deserving kids go home without a chance to wrestle at state.

 

Now let me be clear I (like most) have a love/hate relationship with our single class no wrestle back system.  Its great when you go to state...place at state... or win. You know you are one of the 16 best, 8best or the best kid in the state. It makes it that much sweeter

 

On the other side tho it can be devastating to get a "death" draw. Often times kids can/have beat 3 of the other kids that go to state but they can't beat the one kid they need to in the ticket round.

 

As you get more acquainted with indiana wrestling you will see how important a good draw is. No matter how good you might be a good draw always helps... can take you from qualifier to under the lights.

 

I always feel for the kids that do everything in their power to go to state but due to a bad draw won't get the chance to wrestle. You can win regionals and be undefeated... and still fall victim to the death draw 

 

Yes I know life's not always fair.... still doesn't stop kids from being crestfallen and half depressed when they see another kid advance that they beat only because of a draw or a weak/strong semi-state 

 

All you can do is support and encourage. 

[SunDevils]

7 hours ago, formercollegekid said:

I honestly wish I knew the answer to changing their mind. 

 

I dont want to get into the "class" wrestling debate.  But wrestle backs... or maybe a 24 man bracket at state (more qualifiers) would definitely help get more national exposure and recruitment to college programs.

 

Every year deserving kids go home without a chance to wrestle at state.

 

Now let me be clear I (like most) have a love/hate relationship with our single class no wrestle back system.  Its great when you go to state...place at state... or win. You know you are one of the 16 best, 8best or the best kid in the state. It makes it that much sweeter

 

On the other side tho it can be devastating to get a "death" draw. Often times kids can/have beat 3 of the other kids that go to state but they can't beat the one kid they need to in the ticket round.

 

As you get more acquainted with indiana wrestling you will see how important a good draw is. No matter how good you might be a good draw always helps... can take you from qualifier to under the lights.

 

I always feel for the kids that do everything in their power to go to state but due to a bad draw won't get the chance to wrestle. You can win regionals and be undefeated... and still fall victim to the death draw 

 

Yes I know life's not always fair.... still doesn't stop kids from being crestfallen and half depressed when they see another kid advance that they beat only because of a draw or a weak/strong semi-state 

 

All you can do is support and encourage. 

The answer to changing the IHSAA leaderships minds is quite easy… lots of $$$. 
 

The IHSAA like the NCAA has proven itself useless. The NCAA on a functional level makes more sense due  to the national scale but it clearly governs poorly. I think every state should really begin to question the validity of their athletic governing bodies. 
 

 

[Wrestling Scholar]

I also moved to Indiana and  questioned the wrestling format, especially no wrestle backs.  It doesn't make sense.    But as mentioned in earlier,  the IHSAA is very adamant against wrestlebacks and will not change or adapt.    But, Ill go into detail as the IHSAA reasoning for this.

 

The IHSAA runs wants to stay true in all sports to their sectional, regional, semi-state state format.   This format is more or less more conducive to basketball and football.    One of the results is there are a lot of basketball, football and baseball teams that get bad draws and lose early in the tournament due to a more competitive area with more ranked teams.   But these teams do not have a consolation opportunity or bracket to compensate for their earlier loss.    And the IHSAA's most important objective is that the one best still wins the championship irrelevant of any bad draws to reach that point.     So the IHSAA board who is made up of mostly ADs who were former Football, Basketball and baseball coaches feel that just as in other sports, the wrestler should not have the opportunity to compete in  a consolation/or wrestleback format just like the team sports and this format ultimately decides the true champion.

 

Note,  many Indiana wrestling fans love the drama of the Friday night matches and call it a "Ticket round" where the results have heavy rewards and consequences being if you win you place, you lose you go home.    Im my opinion this format is a disgrace and attacks the integrity of the sport.   You compile a one class event where mathematically, Indiana is the most difficult state tournament to qualify and you have a great opportunity to showcase the states best talent,  but the IHSAA wants to shorten the event and get  the kids out.   Its silly,  and actually if they had another session and had wrestle backs, the IHSAA could charge more money.

 

Ive done some research and have compiled a list below of states that do not have wrestlebacks for their state tournament.

 

List of states without wrestle backs.

1. Indiana

 

 

[RAJR]

9 hours ago, formercollegekid said:

Ihsaa is not super wrestling friendly.....

 

I will give credit where credit is due we had a state tournament last year... albeit a modified one.

 

The best way I can explain it @huntergreen is that the ihsaa only cares about the champ.... thats it 14 kids.

 

While we as wrestling fans see the impact and importance a state qualifier or state placer has on a kid, family, program and often a whole community.... the ihsaa does not. THEY ONLY WANT THE CHAMP. Sad but true

They also have a one size fits all mindset. They want and think sports is sports and they are all the same without recognizing any uniqueness, and well, wrestling is unique. IHSAA basically has two models, 1 for team sports which are classed, 1 for individual sports which are not. No other approach. Decide which sport you are, team or individual and that's the type of tournament you get. They only care about getting a champ not the best teams or individuals to the state finals. IHSAA has said many times, if the bball team loses they are out, they don't get to play again so why should there be wrestle backs. Can't change all sports. blah, blah, blah SMH... just my .02 or maybe .10c worth. lol

[DrunkJoeNamath]

Wrestlebacks are for losers!

[casualwrestlingfan]

1 hour ago, SunDevils said:

The answer to changing the IHSAA leaderships minds is quite easy… lots of $$$. 
 

The IHSAA like the NCAA has proven itself useless. The NCAA on a functional level makes more sense due  to the national scale but it clearly governs poorly. I think every state should really begin to question the validity of their athletic governing bodies. 
 

 

Amen on the bolded! I've been quite vocal in regards to the IHSAA & OHSAA (due to my state line living situation) not handling things properly. 

[formercollegekid]

I've heard track runs into similar problems that we do... some regionals being tougher then others. So a potential mismatch at state.

 

The thing I don't like about the football baseball basketball comparison is that they only hand out medals for the top two teams

 

This is an individual tournament, that Metals for the top 8. 

 

Ps that brings up another interesting question why does track and cross country give out State Metals for the top 16

[MattM]

8 minutes ago, formercollegekid said:

I've heard track runs into similar problems that we do... some regionals being tougher then others. So a potential mismatch at state.

But at least individual sports like track, cross-country, golf, and gymnastics advance a group to the next level based on their comparison to the entire field of competition.   Wrestling had the fate of a random semi-state and state alignment where just your showing against a single competitor can eliminate you.   I think only really tennis (Not 100% sure on their tournament set up) could be in a comparable situation to wrestling.  

 

Someone can say that more akin to the IHSAA team sports, but at least with them they have an entire team of players to rely on nightly to show which group is the most worthy to advance.  Wrestling doesn't have the ability to alter the setup or substitute someone in to adjust to the flow of the game.  That's where I don't like comparing teams sports to individual sports.  

[bsisson]

13 minutes ago, formercollegekid said:

I've heard track runs into similar problems that we do... some regionals being tougher then others. So a potential mismatch at state.

 

The thing I don't like about the football baseball basketball comparison is that they only hand out medals for the top two teams

 

This is an individual tournament, that Metals for the top 8. 

 

Ps that brings up another interesting question why does track and cross country give out State Metals for the top 16

Doesn't track have a "standard" for most events.  Which allows kids in a loaded Regional at least a chance to move on?

[Galagore]

5 minutes ago, bsisson said:

Doesn't track have a "standard" for most events.  Which allows kids in a loaded Regional at least a chance to move on?

Yes, track does have a standard. It is pretty tough to get, but it is something like the rolling average of the past three year's 9th place marks. You aren't going to qualify if you aren't really really good, but you also aren't going to get boxed out just because you have 4 D-1 prospects in your sectional or regional.

[MattM]

47 minutes ago, bsisson said:

Doesn't track have a "standard" for most events.  Which allows kids in a loaded Regional at least a chance to move on?

If I think swimming also has a similar "standard" time that would qualify you for state. 

[Matt Time]

I am convinced that our sanctioning body "puts up" with wrestling and cares nothing for promoting it or creating more opportunities within it. See also the discussion about sanctioning girls wrestling. 

[Wrestling Scholar]

2 hours ago, MattM said:

But at least individual sports like track, cross-country, golf, and gymnastics advance a group to the next level based on their comparison to the entire field of competition.   Wrestling had the fate of a random semi-state and state alignment where just your showing against a single competitor can eliminate you.   I think only really tennis (Not 100% sure on their tournament set up) could be in a comparable situation to wrestling.  

 

 

The IHSAA Tennis tournament is more messed up then the wrestling tournament.   They run it like a team tournament and only winners advance and they only let one singles player and one doubles team compete, not the whole team.  The inequity is more noticeable  as the  better tennis teams come from very similar geographic locations,  with the best players coming from the same sectional or same team sometimes. This was exceptionally agregious this year as the two best kids in the state this year were in the Lafayette sectional.   The #1 ranked player lost a very close match to the #2 player in the state in  the sectionals.    The #2 player killed the rest of the field and won state easily.  The #1 player's season was over.   Again,  this is because the IHSAA jams their basketball format and totally ignores the idiosyncracies of other sports.   Just imagine the outrage is you had the two best wrestlers in the state wrestle in sectionals, and one could advance. 

[The Professor Morgan]

We are probably never going to win the battle for full wrestle backs.  However, I remember in 2013 they let us do wrestlebacks at Semistate to determine the alternate.  Instead of being an alternate, what if we pushed to add the fifth place finisher wrestles a 4th placer in the first round pigtail.  Winner getting the 1 seed in a traditional format.

 

it would accomplish getting another correct guy to state and add intrigue with the winner of 4/5 having a win leading into their match with the 1.  And it wouldn’t add a lot of time, especially since it seems like the two session thing is sticking around.

 

 

[aoberlin]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:58 AM, Wrestling Scholar said:

 

 

List of states without wrestle backs.

1. Indiana

 

 

Add to that list. I believe Indiana is one of only 3 states to have single class wrestling. So.....

[SIwrestling]

47 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

Add to that list. I believe Indiana is one of only 3 states to have single class wrestling. So.....

Who is the third? I know Kentucky is one of the others. 

[buttler73]

California is single class

i think New Jersey.

Edited February 18, 2022 by buttler73

[GrecoCoach]

7 hours ago, mikemorgan said:

We are probably never going to win the battle for full wrestle backs.  However, I remember in 2013 they let us do wrestlebacks at Semistate to determine the alternate.  Instead of being an alternate, what if we pushed to add the fifth place finisher wrestles a 4th placer in the first round pigtail.  Winner getting the 1 seed in a traditional format.

 

it would accomplish getting another correct guy to state and add intrigue with the winner of 4/5 having a win leading into their match with the 1.  And it wouldn’t add a lot of time, especially since it seems like the two session thing is sticking around.

 

 

If time is an issue for the IHSAA at semistate, they could set it up like state used to be.  If the wrestler who beat you in the ticket round makes it to the finals, then you wrestle for 5th at the same time as 1st & 3rd.  It's not full wrestlebacks, but it is a solution to those death draws that the IHSAA would consider.