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IHSAA Restructuring Discussion


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19 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

What would be a worth while reason to restructure the state tournament in your opinion? 

 If we are running an all-in, single class tournament, host sites and who goes where should be based on geography.

 

Hopefully Clint isn't sore about me moving in on his question:}

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37 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

Indy is saturated and at the same time those schools/kids have access to CIA, Red Cobra, Contenders and a significant number of schools within 30-40 minutes of each other to get training just about any day they want.  Been coaching 25 years and I never heard much about Indy being saturated until all of these Academies started and, with that, a tremendous increase in great wrestling.  Great problem to have in your area for sure.  Those places have a done a great job and this is not a knock on them.  Now Indy is hammering each other and now it's saturated and everything needs restructuring.  Again, not a reasonable explanation to restructure IMO.  

Restructuring wouldn't just benefit Indy schools though. Think of all the small school or sectionals/regionals that would benefit from not being matched up with all the powerhouses. Look at Richmond regional being matched up with NM, PH, PM regionals all with Indy area schools. Moving just one Regional from that semi state would help the schools in the Richmond regional. Or maybe just move some sectionals to even out some regionals. 

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14 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 If we are running an all-in, single class tournament, host sites and who goes where should be based on geography.

 

Hopefully Clint isn't sore about me moving in on his question:}

I would agree here...geography, number of schools in a sectional/regional.  For instance you have 12 and 10 schools in the Twin Lakes and Laf. Sectionals, so 22 in the Logan Regional.  Then you have 9 at the plymouth sectional and 8 at the Mishawaka Sectional, so 17 at the Penn Regional.  Then 7 at Elkhart and 9 at Westview for 16 teams at the Goshen Regional.  Those are discussions worth having and restructuring.  And I know there are sectionals/regionals like that all over the state.  As schools consolidate or close or add programs, then I think you talk restructuring.  

 

Indy schools are reaping the benefits of having a lot of resources, and rightfully so, but now it seems like you are saying that it's not fair because you are beating each other up.  I don't think that calls for a restructure.

 

Coach B...no worries! :)

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30 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

I would agree here...geography, number of schools in a sectional/regional.  For instance you have 12 and 10 schools in the Twin Lakes and Laf. Sectionals, so 22 in the Logan Regional.  Then you have 9 at the plymouth sectional and 8 at the Mishawaka Sectional, so 17 at the Penn Regional.  Then 7 at Elkhart and 9 at Westview for 16 teams at the Goshen Regional.  Those are discussions worth having and restructuring.  And I know there are sectionals/regionals like that all over the state.  As schools consolidate or close or add programs, then I think you talk restructuring.  

 

Indy schools are reaping the benefits of having a lot of resources, and rightfully so, but now it seems like you are saying that it's not fair because you are beating each other up.  I don't think that calls for a restructure.

 

Coach B...no worries! :)

 

I agree the geography should be a big factor. There are ways to use geography and still even out the semi-states. 

 

It'd upset the apple cart too much, I get it. I know it's not going to happen. Still think in a sport where we crown a TEAM champ based off of INDIVIDUAL results, we should want the top 8 guys in the state standing on the podium at the end of the year. In order to do that, we'd need to rebalance the semi-states, AND add wrestle backs at semi-state and state. This isn't track or swimming where a qualifying time better than another site's state champ means you get in. If you get a bad draw at a loaded semi-state, you're out. Useless to your team moving forward, unable to score points.

 

OR--my favorite idea--have an actual all-in team state tournament again. OR--switch to class wrestling

 

This is just one reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Clint Gard said:

I would agree here...geography, number of schools in a sectional/regional.  For instance you have 12 and 10 schools in the Twin Lakes and Laf. Sectionals, so 22 in the Logan Regional.  Then you have 9 at the plymouth sectional and 8 at the Mishawaka Sectional, so 17 at the Penn Regional.  Then 7 at Elkhart and 9 at Westview for 16 teams at the Goshen Regional.  Those are discussions worth having and restructuring.  And I know there are sectionals/regionals like that all over the state.  As schools consolidate or close or add programs, then I think you talk restructuring.  

 

Indy schools are reaping the benefits of having a lot of resources, and rightfully so, but now it seems like you are saying that it's not fair because you are beating each other up.  I don't think that calls for a restructure.

 

Coach B...no worries! :)

From a distance perspective, it's a lot closer to drive and/or shorter driving time from Brownsburg to the Allen County War Memorial Coliseum or E Chicago HS or New Castle HS than it is to the Ford Center...

 

When you look at the population heat map of the state, it does beg the question about redistributing the indianapolis metro area to the four corners of the state. The better question would be which programs would go where...  

 

A good start would be breaking up the Mooresville Semi-State, er, Regional...

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4 hours ago, indypharmd said:

From a distance perspective, it's a lot closer to drive and/or shorter driving time from Brownsburg to the Allen County War Memorial Coliseum or E Chicago HS or New Castle HS than it is to the Ford Center...

 

When you look at the population heat map of the state, it does beg the question about redistributing the indianapolis metro area to the four corners of the state. The better question would be which programs would go where...  

 

A good start would be breaking up the Mooresville Semi-State, er, Regional...

Who do you send to Evansville then? There are not many options of schools within reasonable distance. 

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12 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Who do you send to Evansville then? There are not many options of schools within reasonable distance. 

Bloomington or Seymour Semi-state has a nice ring to it. Would make things easier as far as travel even if we don’t change any of the teams headed to the Semi-states.

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15 hours ago, indypharmd said:

When you look at the population heat map of the state, it does beg the question about redistributing the indianapolis metro area to the four corners of the state. The better question would be which programs would go where...  

 

That population heat map shown on the link seems like it must be based on density, not necessarily county population.  Randolph and Union counties along the Ohio border are dark red, while Vanderburgh count (Evansville), Allen county (Fort Wayne) and Delaware county (Muncie) are orange?

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15 hours ago, indypharmd said:

From a distance perspective, it's a lot closer to drive and/or shorter driving time from Brownsburg to the Allen County War Memorial Coliseum or E Chicago HS or New Castle HS than it is to the Ford Center...

 

When you look at the population heat map of the state, it does beg the question about redistributing the indianapolis metro area to the four corners of the state. The better question would be which programs would go where...  

 

A good start would be breaking up the Mooresville Semi-State, er, Regional...

Per my little calculations and hopefully google distances are correct Evansville has only 46 schools that the semi-state location is the closest. Add to that only 22 that semi-state location is the second closest. Basically we need to have around 75-80 schools in each semi-state. One of the biggest issues I see is that our regional and semi-state locations are not ideal. The Terre Haute area has NOTHING close and Vermillion County is about as far away from every semi-state location as humanly possible in the state.

 

Here is a little spreadsheet that has information including under the Regional Stats tab that indicates how many teams are close to each semi-state.

2021 Teams- Reg Distance.xlsx

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231 schools attend their closest semi-state possible.

59 attend the second closest semi-state

 

11 attend the third closest semi-state

Logansport
Carroll (Flora)
Decatur Central
Greenwood
Whiteland
North Putnam
Mooresville
Center Grove
Plainfield
Franklin Community
Cascade
 

7 attend the furthest semi-state possible

Tri-West
Brownsburg
Danville
Speedway
Ben Davis
Pike
Avon
 

 

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Is that pure distance or driving time distance?  Not having a straight road to a few locations complicates travel time even more for some teams.  I know the road network we have to use probably adds around an hour to our current semi-state drive time.  I'm sure some others are the same.

Edited by MattM
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41 minutes ago, MattM said:

Is that pure distance or driving time distance?  Not having a straight road to a few locations complicates travel time even more for some teams.  I know the road network we have to use probably adds around an hour to our current semi-state drive time.  I'm sure some others are the same.

Mileage on roads from one school to the regional or semi-state host address via the machine called Google.

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On 5/21/2021 at 12:01 PM, Y2CJ41 said:

231 schools attend their closest semi-state possible.

59 attend the second closest semi-state

 

11 attend the third closest semi-state

Logansport
Carroll (Flora)
Decatur Central
Greenwood
Whiteland
North Putnam
Mooresville
Center Grove
Plainfield
Franklin Community
Cascade
 

7 attend the furthest semi-state possible

Tri-West
Brownsburg
Danville
Speedway
Ben Davis
Pike
Avon
 

 

Essentially the Avon Sectional would need to be sent to an alternate regional/ss. This would would re equilibrate the Mooresville regional. What would it take to send the Avon Sectional through to the northwest. Easy driving up I-65, esp if SS moved to Lafayette...

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1 hour ago, indypharmd said:

Essentially the Avon Sectional would need to be sent to an alternate regional/ss. This would would re equilibrate the Mooresville regional. What would it take to send the Avon Sectional through to the northwest. Easy driving up I-65, esp if SS moved to Lafayette...

The biggest problem is replacing those 10 teams in the Evansville semi-state in order to keep all the semi-states as equal possible. Not as easy or fun task at all. 

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2 hours ago, indypharmd said:

Essentially the Avon Sectional would need to be sent to an alternate regional/ss. This would would re equilibrate the Mooresville regional. What would it take to send the Avon Sectional through to the northwest. Easy driving up I-65, esp if SS moved to Lafayette...

You also would have all 10 of them driving right past Zionsville, Lebanon, Frankfort, etc; who are still going to New Castle. Wouldn’t bother me any, but IHSAA usually tries not to do that with such large amounts of schools (there are a few weird examples of a school here or there driving right past others to get their regional or semi-state, but not a whole sectional)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I haven't been on the forums in a while so I am catching up.  Lot of good ideas shared here.  My understanding is the sectional realignment discussions already occurred.  I also heard that no significant changes were being made...that changes were delayed and would be considered next year.  Can anyone confirm if that is true?

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On 5/7/2021 at 2:27 PM, Coach Brobst said:

I'm not trying to pick on Ft. Wayne for currently being the weakest semi-state, it's just a fact. As I mentioned having McClurg at Warrior RTC will help and as more coaches have the ability to invest in the area overall, it'll bounce back. That day is several years down the road though.

 

Here, we are in agreement. The Mooresville Regional is ridiculous. I would hope it is divided in some regard. At the Sectional Level, having Avon and Brownsburg in your sectional is challenging to say the least. When I coached at Mooresville, I had A LOT of talented athletes not even make it to Semi-State some years because of Avon, Brownsburg, Center Grove, Ben Davis, and throw in 4-5 studs from each Greenwood, Franklin, Whiteland, Plainfield, Monrovia (was unreal for a small school at that time), Martinsville, and Indian Creek and you got yourself a party. They tried to lessen that by moving Indian Creek to Bloomington and kicking Plainfield to the Avon Sectional to balance the two sectionals, but as you know, didn't do a whole lot to make the regional any less tough. There are a few other sectionals and Regionals that are unbalanced as well that I hope are looked at by the committee. 

 

Unfortunately, when I was looking to solve that problem, I couldn't find a way to keep most of the sectionals/regionals the same and split some of the biggest schools due to their proximity to each other. Perhaps a committee of people could see some creative solutions that I could not that are less extreme than my map.

 

You are 100% correct it's about getting those kids the opportunity to compete at Banker's Life, in whatever way we can get it done. Overcrowding Sectionals/Regionals/Semi-States while others are lagging behind causes disparity in which schools are able to get their programs rocking as farther advancement in the state series garners more interest in potential athletes in a program.

 

I'm very interested to see how this actually plays out.

Frankly this type of Narrative is the reason we have issues with retention and trust in our coaches and trainers who can actually do something.  No disrespect to Wade but there has been and still are clubs and coaches in the area who can coach their butts off.  Proof is we have several young wrestlers who are currently doing well in elementary and middle school.  We have the best incoming freshman in the state. There is a swell coming from the conference and participation has been up this off season.  Problem is parents get to reading this type a stuff and start searching for an answer when it’s in their own back yard.  A focus on elite training and less hand holding is in order.  Parents in Fort Wayne need to realize if you want your son or daughter to be elite at wrestling you have to “do the rounds” and invest.   Coaches in the area need to knowledge share and compete against one another.  Frankly the in-house stuff ain’t working.  But what do I know?

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