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IHSAA Restructuring Discussion


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One of the biggest issues with our current semi-states is that they are not even close to being centrally located within their respective region. East Chicago and Evansville are literally in the worst possible places. New Castle is right up there and some schools such as the Muncie area are closer to New Castle than Fort Wayne. I don't see any changes in semi-state locations which then leads to which one do you start with then pan out there.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

One of the biggest issues with our current semi-states is that they are not even close to being centrally located within their respective region. East Chicago and Evansville are literally in the worst possible places. New Castle is right up there and some schools such as the Muncie area are closer to New Castle than Fort Wayne. I don't see any changes in semi-state locations which then leads to which one do you start with then pan out there.

 

 

Agree this is one of our biggest issues Jasper proved to be a solid host this year that isnt so far south. Not sure who up north would have the facilities to host I know Merriville was the host in years past. 

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9 minutes ago, QuinnHarris said:

The Ft. Wayne area unfortunately is at a disadvantage because they do not have middle school organized wrestling in the area, and there aren't the options to go get outside training like there is in the Indianapolis area. I think that as coaches we need to attempt to help that area rather than just tell them that their semi state is weaker than the rest.

 

 

I'm not trying to pick on Ft. Wayne for currently being the weakest semi-state, it's just a fact. As I mentioned having McClurg at Warrior RTC will help and as more coaches have the ability to invest in the area overall, it'll bounce back. That day is several years down the road though.

 

12 minutes ago, QuinnHarris said:

My only problem with some of the sectionals and regionals is I don't believe some schools are able to live up to their potential when their sectional has 4 or more ranked wrestlers because there are 4 6A schools in the sectional. I just believe there has to be a better way to allow for some of the sectionals and regionals to be a bit more spread out rather than having the gauntlets that some of these sectionals and regionals are every year

Here, we are in agreement. The Mooresville Regional is ridiculous. I would hope it is divided in some regard. At the Sectional Level, having Avon and Brownsburg in your sectional is challenging to say the least. When I coached at Mooresville, I had A LOT of talented athletes not even make it to Semi-State some years because of Avon, Brownsburg, Center Grove, Ben Davis, and throw in 4-5 studs from each Greenwood, Franklin, Whiteland, Plainfield, Monrovia (was unreal for a small school at that time), Martinsville, and Indian Creek and you got yourself a party. They tried to lessen that by moving Indian Creek to Bloomington and kicking Plainfield to the Avon Sectional to balance the two sectionals, but as you know, didn't do a whole lot to make the regional any less tough. There are a few other sectionals and Regionals that are unbalanced as well that I hope are looked at by the committee. 

 

Unfortunately, when I was looking to solve that problem, I couldn't find a way to keep most of the sectionals/regionals the same and split some of the biggest schools due to their proximity to each other. Perhaps a committee of people could see some creative solutions that I could not that are less extreme than my map.

 

You are 100% correct it's about getting those kids the opportunity to compete at Banker's Life, in whatever way we can get it done. Overcrowding Sectionals/Regionals/Semi-States while others are lagging behind causes disparity in which schools are able to get their programs rocking as farther advancement in the state series garners more interest in potential athletes in a program.

 

I'm very interested to see how this actually plays out.

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46 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

One of the biggest issues with our current semi-states is that they are not even close to being centrally located within their respective region. East Chicago and Evansville are literally in the worst possible places. New Castle is right up there and some schools such as the Muncie area are closer to New Castle than Fort Wayne. I don't see any changes in semi-state locations which then leads to which one do you start with then pan out there.

 

 

 

I have heard rumors about the New Castle SS being moved closer to/in Indy.....  but I have heard these rumors for years...

 

 

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The idea of not getting the "best" to state comes up in other sports as well. 

Look at football- there are multiple examples of top teams playing in the same sectional. For instance in 1A, LCC and Pioneer battled it out in the same sectional for years as two of the top ranked teams. Ft Wayne's disadvantage in wrestling is the large proportion of small schools that it is made up of. And the lack of early opportunities for the large schools that are there (FW Community Schools). I am not sure the IHSAA feels it is a big enough problem to have a major overhaul. Then they would have to for other sports as well. 

As for travel distances- if AC makes it to regional in baseball, they travel to Whiting (3.5 hour drive). from the Ohio state line to the Illinois state line. So there are other instances of large travel times. 

So other sports have the same concerns we do. Just not sure the powers see it as an issue to fix. 

 

Edited by jetwrestling
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4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Here is a current listing of schools that were in the 2021 state series with addresses, enrollment, etc for anyone to download and tinker with. If you change the Sectional Number on the first page you can get updated stats on teams and enrollments.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h6EDxnkPLHXs0IvGGC-izU-Zk90dQo1PgeK8_krelZM/edit?usp=sharing

 

Note there are a couple weird teams
Andrean- Was Q'd up this year, they have a team
Illiana Christian- Should be IHSAA eligible soon
Purdue Polytech- Should be IHSAA eligible soon

 

If there are mistakes or leaving off a team tell me and I'll update it.

Added distances to sectional, regional and semi-state with averages in the stats tab. Evansville semi-state average distance is 107miles!

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20 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

I'm not trying to pick on Ft. Wayne for currently being the weakest semi-state, it's just a fact. As I mentioned having McClurg at Warrior RTC will help and as more coaches have the ability to invest in the area overall, it'll bounce back. That day is several years down the road though.

 

Here, we are in agreement. The Mooresville Regional is ridiculous. I would hope it is divided in some regard. At the Sectional Level, having Avon and Brownsburg in your sectional is challenging to say the least. When I coached at Mooresville, I had A LOT of talented athletes not even make it to Semi-State some years because of Avon, Brownsburg, Center Grove, Ben Davis, and throw in 4-5 studs from each Greenwood, Franklin, Whiteland, Plainfield, Monrovia (was unreal for a small school at that time), Martinsville, and Indian Creek and you got yourself a party. They tried to lessen that by moving Indian Creek to Bloomington and kicking Plainfield to the Avon Sectional to balance the two sectionals, but as you know, didn't do a whole lot to make the regional any less tough. There are a few other sectionals and Regionals that are unbalanced as well that I hope are looked at by the committee. 

 

Unfortunately, when I was looking to solve that problem, I couldn't find a way to keep most of the sectionals/regionals the same and split some of the biggest schools due to their proximity to each other. Perhaps a committee of people could see some creative solutions that I could not that are less extreme than my map.

 

You are 100% correct it's about getting those kids the opportunity to compete at Banker's Life, in whatever way we can get it done. Overcrowding Sectionals/Regionals/Semi-States while others are lagging behind causes disparity in which schools are able to get their programs rocking as farther advancement in the state series garners more interest in potential athletes in a program.

 

I'm very interested to see how this actually plays out.

Ben Davis, Pike, and Decatur Central were all New Castle semi state until 2013 when they were moved into the Avon and Mooresville sectionals. I just believe that having 4 6A schools in a sectional is INSANE does any other sectional in the state have 4 schools that size then 3 Putnam County schools that are small have to compete with that at their first stage of the tournament, and if you are good enough to get through next week you'll add another 6A school in Center Grove and some other bigger schools in Whiteland, and Franklin Comm.

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52 minutes ago, QuinnHarris said:

Ben Davis, Pike, and Decatur Central were all New Castle semi state until 2013 when they were moved into the Avon and Mooresville sectionals. I just believe that having 4 6A schools in a sectional is INSANE does any other sectional in the state have 4 schools that size then 3 Putnam County schools that are small have to compete with that at their first stage of the tournament, and if you are good enough to get through next week you'll add another 6A school in Center Grove and some other bigger schools in Whiteland, and Franklin Comm.

Our sectional at Frankfort has HSE, Fishers, Westfield, and Carmel plus Lebanon Sheridan, and all of Clinton County.

4 6A football schools too

I want to say there may be one in the Region that has at least 3, but could be wrong.

1 hour ago, jetwrestling said:

The idea of not getting the "best" to state comes up in other sports as well. 

Look at football- there are multiple examples of top teams playing in the same sectional. For instance in 1A, LCC and Pioneer battled it out in the same sectional for years as two of the top ranked teams. Ft Wayne's disadvantage in wrestling is the large proportion of small schools that it is made up of. And the lack of early opportunities for the large schools that are there (FW Community Schools). I am not sure the IHSAA feels it is a big enough problem to have a major overhaul. Then they would have to for other sports as well. 

As for travel distances- if AC makes it to regional in baseball, they travel to Whiting (3.5 hour drive). from the Ohio state line to the Illinois state line. So there are other instances of large travel times. 

So other sports have the same concerns we do. Just not sure the powers see it as an issue to fix. 

 

They definitely do not see it as an issue. You’re right about football, but those get redistributed significantly every couple of years due to being classed.

Edited by Coach Brobst
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Yeah that sectional is ROUGH as well. I just think they talk so much about how the semi states need to have the same amount of large schools, and I would respond that they need the sectionals and regionals to be that way to some extent too. I get its extremely hard to separate Avon and Brownsburg, or HSE and Fishers, but there has to be some logical way from keeping a sectional from being 4 6A schools 3 4/3A schools and 4 1A schools. (I'm not sure my numbers are correct but I am referring to the Avon sectional)

Edited by QuinnHarris
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1 hour ago, QuinnHarris said:

Yeah that sectional is ROUGH as well. I just think they talk so much about how the semi states need to have the same amount of large schools, and I would respond that they need the sectionals and regionals to be that way to some extent too. I get its extremely hard to separate Avon and Brownsburg, or HSE and Fishers, but there has to be some logical way from keeping a sectional from being 4 6A schools 3 4/3A schools and 4 1A schools. (I'm not sure my numbers are correct but I am referring to the Avon sectional)

If we look at fixing either sectional with just a couple moves to neighboring sectionals the options are as follows:

Avon Sectional:

Option 1) Move either Pike or Brownsburg to Zionsville Sectional/North Mont Regional

 

Foreseen issues: Moving Pike doesn't help that much since they traditionally are not strong. Moving Brownsburg makes the Zionsville Sectional instantly better, but trades a really tough regional at Mooresville for a really tough Regional at North Mont with HSE, Fishers, Westfield, Carmel, Zionsville and Brownsburg all in the same Regional

 

Option 2) Kick Avon, Plainfield or Ben Davis to Mooresville Sectional

 

Foreseen issue: Somebody would need to leave the Mooresville sectional, which in my opinion, is already tougher than the Avon Sectional in overall depth (top end is better at Avon, but overall depth is usually better at Mooresville). Would it be Martinsville to Bloomington? Decatur to Avon? Franklin or Whiteland head north/east to Perry/Southport/Shelbyille (would involve a semi-state change too). You also have to send some smaller schools to Avon then from Mooreville.

 

Option 3) Send Ben Davis to either Lawrence Central or Southport Sectionals. 

 

Foreseen issues: Probably the best option of the 3 as far as simplicity, but, again, Ben Davis hasn't exactly been a killer since Lydy graduated and you still have all the other schools sitting in the same Regional. Really just trading problems out.

 

Frankfort Sectional:

Option 1) Kick Lebanon and Carmel/Westfield (one or the other) to Zionsville

 

Foreseen issue: Just pushing the depth issue a week. Instead of 4 6A teams in 1 sectional, you end up with 3 in one and 2 in another, but still 5 meeting up in Regionals

 

Option 2) Kick 1-2 of the 6A schools up to Elwood. Likely combinations would be HSE/Fishers or Carmel/Westfield only because IHSAA hates splitting schools from the same district.

 

Foreseen issues: May be best option of ones I've come up with other than there's no logical team to move to Frankfort except maybe Hamilton Heights/Tipton? Gives some size to the Regional currently dominated by Cathedral, but still has Lawrence North, Lawrence Central and North Central. When those 3 are rocking (all were down this past season, but they'll cycle back up), having either HSE/Fishers or Carmel/Westfield in the same Regional is just, again, trading an old problem for a new one.

 

I'm not opposed to any of these ideas, but the only way to balance all of this, in my opinion is to split the Indy area 3 ways at the semi-state level. Any of the options above are far more likely to occur than mass restructuring of the semi-states.

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On 5/7/2021 at 11:38 AM, Coach Brobst said:

The following words are not meant to offend, I really want to have an active discussion regarding it, I'm just using Rochester vs Frankfort as an example to illustrate a point.

 

I guess it's easy to say that it's not a big deal that they're unbalanced when you benefit from it. Curious as to whether you'd feel the same way if you were the coach at Clinton Central or Rossville? Heck, Frankfort is open! Would you want that job and compete with us, Carmel, Westfield, and Fishers just to make Regionals? 

 

Please don't mistake my theory for wanting to hurt small schools, I'm in favor of classing and always have been, but under the current system if the goal is to get the best 16 athletes to Banker's Life, we can do better by balancing the semi-states. 

 

I don't have a problem working to make ourselves better to compete with the best in our area. It is what it is for us. We have 3600 students so ultimately, if we don't achieve success regardless of where we're placed, it's on us. I'm working to build a program that lives up to its size.

 

I don't think we'll see a major restructuring this year, but I do think it benefits our state to have as close to the best 16 athletes in each weight make it to Indy. Whatever way that happens, be it wrestle-backs, redistricting or another way, I'm going to be in favor.

 

Just my 2 cents, probably worth less than that.

If the goal is the best 16 wrestlers to state, then there needs to be true wrestlebacks at all the state series levels. Also, since we are crowning a team champ with a individual tournament, there should also be true wrestlebacks and no one and done 1st round. Might have had a different team champ this year with wrestlebacks.

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13 hours ago, Cmoney125 said:

If the goal is the best 16 wrestlers to state, then there needs to be true wrestlebacks at all the state series levels. Also, since we are crowning a team champ with a individual tournament, there should also be true wrestlebacks and no one and done 1st round. Might have had a different team champ this year with wrestlebacks.

 

You would still have wrestlers at home, on Friday night, that would have qualified had they avoided the "loaded" regional/semi-state.  Wrestle-backs provides the best chance to get the Top 4 from a given location, on that given day.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

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17 hours ago, Cmoney125 said:

If the goal is the best 16 wrestlers to state, then there needs to be true wrestlebacks at all the state series levels. Also, since we are crowning a team champ with a individual tournament, there should also be true wrestlebacks and no one and done 1st round. Might have had a different team champ this year with wrestlebacks.

Wrestlebacks are fantastic and I agree we need them but as already mentioned, it doesn’t solve a situation where 6 top kids are in the same regional and only 4 make it to semi-state.

 

No solution would be perfect, of course. Ideally, we’d balance things out and have wrestlebacks.

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I've always wonder if it would be possible to split the semi-states east north west and south and distributed the indy area schools between those 4 semi-states as needed and use a more central location for each semi-state New Castle could host the east and maybe use Bloomington host the south. West you could use north montgomery or the Lafayette area. I'm not sure about the north. Now I understand finding locations with big enough gyms could be an issue and I'm sure IHSAA don't want to make that drastic of changes but I feel this could help cut travel and even the 4 semi-states out.

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Logic would say send Brownsburg to Ft. Wayne SS. They drive 180 miles to the Evansville Semi State, its 139 to Ft Wayne. Can't really argue distance as a reason its a bad idea. Sure in a few years when Ft. Wayne is on the rise look at moving things again. 

 

Makes sense to put New Albany and Floyd back in the Jeff regional.  I think those 2 things make the regionals and Evansville Semi state more manageable. 

 

 

Based on the Team State leaderboard ratings to end last season those 2 simple changes would leave...

 

Mooresville Regional

4A # 7 CG #14 Avon

3A #3 Franklin #14 Whiteland

2A #14 Monrovia

 

Jeff Regional

3A #1 CE #2 Floyd

2A # 7 Charlestown

 

Bloomington Regional 

3A # 8 THS #9 Bloomington South #16 Jasper

 

Evansville Regional

4A #3 EMD 

2A #11 Memorial

1A # 4 North Posey #11 Tell City 

 

 

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I put together a nice little spreadsheet for people to tinker with.

 

I have calculated the distance from each school to the nearest eight regionals. I narrowed those down to the top 4 and then put them into this sheet. It is a little complicated, but is easy to play with as far as putting teams in different sectionals and regionals.

 

I did regionals because I highly doubt those will change by much. The bad thing is the Terre Haute area lacks a close regional so about 6 teams have at least an hour drive no matter which way you send them. 

 

The downloaded copy is my attempt that fails miserably because our state is not evenly distributed.

 

Feel free to put your favorite alignment up and see how much travel each school has. This is not an easy project and something I am glad I am not involved in.

 

Updated 5/12 9:30am

2021 Teams- Reg Distance.xlsx

 

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4 hours ago, bbulldog152 said:

I've always wonder if it would be possible to split the semi-states east north west and south and distributed the indy area schools between those 4 semi-states as needed and use a more central location for each semi-state New Castle could host the east and maybe use Bloomington host the south. West you could use north montgomery or the Lafayette area. I'm not sure about the north. Now I understand finding locations with big enough gyms could be an issue and I'm sure IHSAA don't want to make that drastic of changes but I feel this could help cut travel and even the 4 semi-states out.

I have been thinking this as well East stays at New Castle or another host south would make sense in Bloomington so everyone has an equal drive, west you could do in Terre Haute possibly, North you could have in Fort Wayne for change to another location that keeps the travel time down. For the east and west it would come down to how far north and south do you go to collect the teams that will be in that region could be from Lafayette to Vincennes in reality which is a big distance. I think the biggest piece to the puzzle is finding centrally located semi state hosts, and by centrally located I mean within that semi state region not central Indiana

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On 5/11/2021 at 12:15 PM, Coach Brobst said:

Wrestlebacks are fantastic and I agree we need them but as already mentioned, it doesn’t solve a situation where 6 top kids are in the same regional and only 4 make it to semi-state.

 

No solution would be perfect, of course. Ideally, we’d balance things out and have wrestlebacks.

True. It currently wouldn't solve that problem, but the semi states all go in cycles and we cant redistribute every time the cycle shifts to balance them out. It's at all levels of wrestling right? I wouldn't think that NCAAs gets the best 33 kids in the bracket every year because not all conference Champs are equal. But we can at least get the best 16 that can come out of the system vs what we have now. But at a minimum because of how we crown a team champ, there has to be true wrestlbacks at state. Just my opinion.

Edited by Cmoney125
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2 hours ago, Cmoney125 said:

True. It currently wouldn't solve that problem, but the semi states all go in cycles and we cant redistribute every time the cycle shifts to balance them out. It's at all levels of wrestling right? I wouldn't think that NCAAs gets the best 33 kids in the bracket every year because not all conference Champs are equal. But we can at least get the best 16 that can come out of the system vs what we have now. But at a minimum because of how we crown a team champ, there has to be true wrestlbacks at state. Just my opinion.

Once again, totally agree wrestlebacks would be a priority and want them at semi-state and state for sure.

 

I do also agree the semi-states cycle and wouldn’t want to redistribute all the time, but I can say with about 99% confidence that the Indy area will always be strong. There are too many training opportunities not to.

 

I just think Indy is over saturated and sending 3/4 of that area to one semi-state is not only rough on each other, but also the smaller schools in the Semi-state. 
 

Redistribution, even a little, would help even it out.

 

It’s also unlikely to happen, maybe even less than wrestlebacks.

 

if you asked me to pick one or the other, I’d pick wrestlebacks all day, but I’d take either.

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On 5/15/2021 at 10:40 PM, Coach Brobst said:

Once again, totally agree wrestlebacks would be a priority and want them at semi-state and state for sure.

 

I do also agree the semi-states cycle and wouldn’t want to redistribute all the time, but I can say with about 99% confidence that the Indy area will always be strong. There are too many training opportunities not to.

 

I just think Indy is over saturated and sending 3/4 of that area to one semi-state is not only rough on each other, but also the smaller schools in the Semi-state. 
 

Redistribution, even a little, would help even it out.

 

It’s also unlikely to happen, maybe even less than wrestlebacks.

 

if you asked me to pick one or the other, I’d pick wrestlebacks all day, but I’d take either.

I can respect that. I also agree that wrestlebacks should be the priority, if only because of team title implications.

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Indy is saturated and at the same time those schools/kids have access to CIA, Red Cobra, Contenders and a significant number of schools within 30-40 minutes of each other to get training just about any day they want.  Been coaching 25 years and I never heard much about Indy being saturated until all of these Academies started and, with that, a tremendous increase in great wrestling.  Great problem to have in your area for sure.  Those places have a done a great job and this is not a knock on them.  Now Indy is hammering each other and now it's saturated and everything needs restructuring.  Again, not a reasonable explanation to restructure IMO.  

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23 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

Indy is saturated and at the same time those schools/kids have access to CIA, Red Cobra, Contenders and a significant number of schools within 30-40 minutes of each other to get training just about any day they want.  Been coaching 25 years and I never heard much about Indy being saturated until all of these Academies started and, with that, a tremendous increase in great wrestling.  Great problem to have in your area for sure.  Those places have a done a great job and this is not a knock on them.  Now Indy is hammering each other and now it's saturated and everything needs restructuring.  Again, not a reasonable explanation to restructure IMO.  

What would be a worth while reason to restructure the state tournament in your opinion? 

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