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IHSAA Restructuring Discussion


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35 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

Where did I miss the discussion on restructuring Sectionals?

It's a fairly standard event that happens every two years.  This will be the third i've been involved with, and the other two haven't brought huge changes.  I cannot say that this one won't will be different, but if its anything like the others the changes are mainly between neighboring sectionals.  There has never been a real push to reroute any whole regionals or sectionals to differnet semi-states.  More a team or two moves between sectionals or regionals.

The commitee this year is the officers, then other coaches who give us a total of 8 (two per semi-state).

If you want to make a guess at who may move here is a cool map that we made that has the sectionals/regionals/semi-states laid out by color. 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1lHUAhl8Yp1gqV_xTpV6UhgFID2eJSm4L&usp=sharing

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The Bloomington South regional encompasses 5,900 square miles. The whole state is about 36,000 square miles!

Quite a few of these leave me scratching my head. For example, why does Floyd Central and New Albany not go to Jeffersonville if it is just down the road? It would make more sense send North Harrison and Crawford County to Southridge. Would seem to cut down on costs as well for school systems (in terms of gas).

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33 minutes ago, Kyle Ayersman said:

Quite a few of these leave me scratching my head. For example, why does Floyd Central and New Albany not go to Jeffersonville if it is just down the road? It would make more sense send North Harrison and Crawford County to Southridge. Would seem to cut down on costs as well for school systems (in terms of gas).

Floyd Central and New Albany were in the Jeffersonville regional up until the last restructuring. 

 

Just for reference, here is the discussion around the last restructure.

 

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Bremen goes to East Chicago whereas Northwood who is 10 minutes down the road goes to Fort Wayne. Warsaw goes to East Chicago as well. In order for them to get to Penn for the Regional they have to pass Northwood and Jimtown, who both go to Fort Wayne. It makes no sense. Both Bremen and Warsaw should be going through the Fort Wayne Semi-State.

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With much of my extra time these past few months (bits here and there) I was kicking around the idea of rotating the semi-states clockwise about a county so it is more like true quarters of the state in order to rebalance the schools coming from each semi-state.

 

I'm attaching what I cam up with here in case anyone cares to peruse.

 

Semistate redistribution Idea.docx

 

A couple caveats:

1) The purpose was to rebalance the semi-states and maybe rebalance some regionals.

 

2) Don't get caught up in who is "hosting", I just did that for ease of identification of sectionals

 

3) There's some big changes in this and I know people who get moved into a "harder" sectional, regional, or semi-state will think it's a dumb idea, but I do think it solves a balance issue and would lead to a better state finals overall.

 

4) I did this solo, so good chance there are some errors with teams either not mentioned or being repeated on accident, just let me know if you find them.

 

5) Obviously, I had to get creative with Regional Pairings to make them as even as possible. One comes out pretty weak overall, but the other 15 are pretty even overall given geographical constraints.

 

 

The final breakdown of Team state eligible teams in each semi-state if we redrew the lines would be as follows:

East Chicago:

4A-8

3A-14

2A-20

1A-26

Total: 68

 

Ft. Wayne:

4A-9

3A-13

2A-21

1A-23

Total: 66

 

New Castle:

4A-10

3A-17

2A-19

1A-20

Total: 66

 

Evansville:

4A-8

3A-16

2A-21

1A-22

Total: 67

 

This is MUCH more balanced than our current semi-states.

Let me know what you think!

 

Possible? 

Dumb Idea?

Does it help solve a problem we currently have?

Are there better solutions with less upheaval to traditional sectional rivalries?

 

All items for discussion.

 

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14 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

With much of my extra time these past few months (bits here and there) I was kicking around the idea of rotating the semi-states clockwise about a county so it is more like true quarters of the state in order to rebalance the schools coming from each semi-state.

 

I'm attaching what I cam up with here in case anyone cares to peruse.

 

Semistate redistribution Idea.docx 24.46 kB · 4 downloads

 

A couple caveats:

1) The purpose was to rebalance the semi-states and maybe rebalance some regionals.

 

2) Don't get caught up in who is "hosting", I just did that for ease of identification of sectionals

 

3) There's some big changes in this and I know people who get moved into a "harder" sectional, regional, or semi-state will think it's a dumb idea, but I do think it solves a balance issue and would lead to a better state finals overall.

 

4) I did this solo, so good chance there are some errors with teams either not mentioned or being repeated on accident, just let me know if you find them.

 

5) Obviously, I had to get creative with Regional Pairings to make them as even as possible. One comes out pretty weak overall, but the other 15 are pretty even overall given geographical constraints.

 

 

The final breakdown of Team state eligible teams in each semi-state if we redrew the lines would be as follows:

East Chicago:

4A-8

3A-14

2A-20

1A-26

Total: 68

 

Ft. Wayne:

4A-9

3A-13

2A-21

1A-23

Total: 66

 

New Castle:

4A-10

3A-17

2A-19

1A-20

Total: 66

 

Evansville:

4A-8

3A-16

2A-21

1A-22

Total: 67

 

This is MUCH more balanced than our current semi-states.

Let me know what you think!

 

Possible? 

Dumb Idea?

Does it help solve a problem we currently have?

Are there better solutions with less upheaval to traditional sectional rivalries?

 

All items for discussion.

 

Looks interesting, might have to put it on a map to look at it clearer.

 

I do enjoy how everyone wants to make their case to come to Fort Wayne. It must be the best semi-state if everyone wants to figure out a way to get there.

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Definitely helps to balance not sure how realistic some of the changes are but it takes out how strong the Mooresville regional is by splitting it up. The river area going up to New Castle would be a huge change. I think the logical change is the Hamilton County area to head north to Ft. Wayne and help strengthen that Semi State. All in all those are all some great ideas to consider still think it is crazy the distance some schools have to drive for a semi state would relocating the hosts of semi state help us do a remap?? Have a host in the North, South, East, and West could do Ft Wayne, Terre Haute, Evansville, Newcastle. 

Edited by QuinnHarris
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Here is a current listing of schools that were in the 2021 state series with addresses, enrollment, etc for anyone to download and tinker with. If you change the Sectional Number on the first page you can get updated stats on teams and enrollments.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h6EDxnkPLHXs0IvGGC-izU-Zk90dQo1PgeK8_krelZM/edit?usp=sharing

 

Note there are a couple weird teams
Andrean- Was Q'd up this year, they have a team
Illiana Christian- Should be IHSAA eligible soon
Purdue Polytech- Should be IHSAA eligible soon

 

If there are mistakes or leaving off a team tell me and I'll update it.

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22 minutes ago, QuinnHarris said:

Definitely helps to balance not sure how realistic some of the changes are but it takes out how strong the Mooresville regional is by splitting it up. The river area going up to New Castle would be a huge change. I think the logical change is the Hamilton County area to head north to Ft. Wayne and help strengthen that Semi State. All in all those are all some great ideas to consider still think it is crazy the distance some schools have to drive for a semi state would relocating the hosts of semi state help us do a remap?? Have a host in the North, South, East, and West could do Ft Wayne, Terre Haute, Evansville, Newcastle. 

I think there'd be no way to have the "Evansville" Semi-State in Evansville with this redraw. IT's nearly 4 hours from Attica to Evansville. Bloomington maybe?

 

New Castle may  not be the best location for the that semi-state with this redraw either. It's almost 3 hours from Floyd Central to New Castle. Albeit the only logical other gym would be Seymour and that'd be a hike for say Jay County.

 

It's all for fun, there's no way in heck the IHSAA would ever go for this redraw, but just something I was messing around with.

 

Here's the updated version with some schools I was missing. Caused a few changes.

Semistate redistribution Idea.docx

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18 hours ago, Coach Brobst said:

With much of my extra time these past few months (bits here and there) I was kicking around the idea of rotating the semi-states clockwise about a county so it is more like true quarters of the state in order to rebalance the schools coming from each semi-state.

 

I'm attaching what I cam up with here in case anyone cares to peruse.

 

Semistate redistribution Idea.docx 24.46 kB · 109 downloads

 

A couple caveats:

1) The purpose was to rebalance the semi-states and maybe rebalance some regionals.

 

2) Don't get caught up in who is "hosting", I just did that for ease of identification of sectionals

 

3) There's some big changes in this and I know people who get moved into a "harder" sectional, regional, or semi-state will think it's a dumb idea, but I do think it solves a balance issue and would lead to a better state finals overall.

 

4) I did this solo, so good chance there are some errors with teams either not mentioned or being repeated on accident, just let me know if you find them.

 

5) Obviously, I had to get creative with Regional Pairings to make them as even as possible. One comes out pretty weak overall, but the other 15 are pretty even overall given geographical constraints.

 

 

The final breakdown of Team state eligible teams in each semi-state if we redrew the lines would be as follows:

East Chicago:

4A-8

3A-14

2A-20

1A-26

Total: 68

 

Ft. Wayne:

4A-9

3A-13

2A-21

1A-23

Total: 66

 

New Castle:

4A-10

3A-17

2A-19

1A-20

Total: 66

 

Evansville:

4A-8

3A-16

2A-21

1A-22

Total: 67

 

This is MUCH more balanced than our current semi-states.

Let me know what you think!

 

Possible? 

Dumb Idea?

Does it help solve a problem we currently have?

Are there better solutions with less upheaval to traditional sectional rivalries?

 

All items for discussion.

 

I like the idea of moving those schools to ft wayne always seemed weird that they had to drive 2 hrs to go to semi state when they can do 30 min instead

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22 minutes ago, Paycheck141 said:

I like the idea of moving those schools to ft wayne always seemed weird that they had to drive 2 hrs to go to semi state when they can do 30 min instead

Warsaw and Wawasee used to go to Fort Wayne. I know Wawasee got moved back in 2003 with the big super sectional restructure. I think Warsaw was in Fort Wayne in the 1990's, but not 100% certain when the change was made.

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I think it's funny that it keeps being said that Ft. Wayne needs to be strengthened or balanced.  People don't care about making Ft. Wayne stronger.  Indy schools are hammering each other in January and February and they want to avoid each other until state.  There is a rumor that there is a movement in Indy, not sure if it's coaches or AD's or both, for this "restructuring" because some of their better kids are losing early.  

 

Restructure because it fits geography, time, etc.  You don't restructure because you don't like the outcome you're getting.  Us small schools have been told to work harder if we want to be like the big dogs.  So, if the rumor is true, then I would say you just need to work harder.

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23 hours ago, ENoblewrestling said:

It's a fairly standard event that happens every two years.  This will be the third i've been involved with, and the other two haven't brought huge changes.  I cannot say that this one won't will be different, but if its anything like the others the changes are mainly between neighboring sectionals.  There has never been a real push to reroute any whole regionals or sectionals to differnet semi-states.  More a team or two moves between sectionals or regionals.

The commitee this year is the officers, then other coaches who give us a total of 8 (two per semi-state).

If you want to make a guess at who may move here is a cool map that we made that has the sectionals/regionals/semi-states laid out by color. 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1lHUAhl8Yp1gqV_xTpV6UhgFID2eJSm4L&usp=sharing

 

 

 

Very cool map!!!!!!!

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12 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

I think it's funny that it keeps being said that Ft. Wayne needs to be strengthened or balanced.  People don't care about making Ft. Wayne stronger.  Indy schools are hammering each other in January and February and they want to avoid each other until state.  There is a rumor that there is a movement in Indy, not sure if it's coaches or AD's or both, for this "restructuring" because some of their better kids are losing early.  

 

Restructure because it fits geography, time, etc.  You don't restructure because you don't like the outcome you're getting.  Us small schools have been told to work harder if we want to be like the big dogs.  So, if the rumor is true, then I would say you just need to work harder.

The following words are not meant to offend, I really want to have an active discussion regarding it, I'm just using Rochester vs Frankfort as an example to illustrate a point.

 

I guess it's easy to say that it's not a big deal that they're unbalanced when you benefit from it. Curious as to whether you'd feel the same way if you were the coach at Clinton Central or Rossville? Heck, Frankfort is open! Would you want that job and compete with us, Carmel, Westfield, and Fishers just to make Regionals? 

 

Please don't mistake my theory for wanting to hurt small schools, I'm in favor of classing and always have been, but under the current system if the goal is to get the best 16 athletes to Banker's Life, we can do better by balancing the semi-states. 

 

I don't have a problem working to make ourselves better to compete with the best in our area. It is what it is for us. We have 3600 students so ultimately, if we don't achieve success regardless of where we're placed, it's on us. I'm working to build a program that lives up to its size.

 

I don't think we'll see a major restructuring this year, but I do think it benefits our state to have as close to the best 16 athletes in each weight make it to Indy. Whatever way that happens, be it wrestle-backs, redistricting or another way, I'm going to be in favor.

 

Just my 2 cents, probably worth less than that.

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4 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

The following words are not meant to offend, I really want to have an active discussion regarding it, I'm just using Rochester vs Frankfort as an example to illustrate a point.

 

I guess it's easy to say that it's not a big deal that they're unbalanced when you benefit from it. Curious as to whether you'd feel the same way if you were the coach at Clinton Central or Rossville? Heck, Frankfort is open! Would you want that job and compete with us, Carmel, Westfield, and Fishers just to make Regionals? 

 

Please don't mistake my theory for wanting to hurt small schools, I'm in favor of classing and always have been, but under the current system if the goal is to get the best 16 athletes to Banker's Life, we can do better by balancing the semi-states. 

 

I don't have a problem working to make ourselves better to compete with the best in our area. It is what it is for us. We have 3600 students so ultimately, if we don't achieve success regardless of where we're placed, it's on us. I'm working to build a program that lives up to its size.

 

I don't think we'll see a major restructuring this year, but I do think it benefits our state to have as close to the best 16 athletes in each weight make it to Indy. Whatever way that happens, be it wrestle-backs, redistricting or another way, I'm going to be in favor.

 

Just my 2 cents, probably worth less than that.

I didn't say it wasn't a big deal.  I said it's bad to restructure because a group of schools are beating each other up and don't like it. That happens a lot of years at various sectionals, regionals, etc.  Why is it a big deal now?  I think that is a bad reason.  We used to host a regional that included Penn, Mishawaka, and all of the SB Schools. Pretty damn tough regional.  It was what it was and we worked hard to compete.  I believe we were top 3, 1 or 2 years.  Never complained about it.

 

If Frankfort was a good job to have and I was ready to move myself, my family, and start over.  Sure I'd take it.  I could careless who is in my sectional or regional.  I've got 5 years left in coaching, then I am out...so the answer is no, I have no interest in that job.

 

I am in favor of classing and wrestle backs...those are the things that will fix what we want fixed.  Lastly, Faulkens is on record saying that he doesn't care about the best 16 kids.  The goal is to crown the best state champion.  That is one reason why they fight against the wrestle backs.

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1 hour ago, Clint Gard said:

I didn't say it wasn't a big deal.  I said it's bad to restructure because a group of schools are beating each other up and don't like it. That happens a lot of years at various sectionals, regionals, etc.  Why is it a big deal now?  I think that is a bad reason.  We used to host a regional that included Penn, Mishawaka, and all of the SB Schools. Pretty damn tough regional.  It was what it was and we worked hard to compete.  I believe we were top 3, 1 or 2 years.  Never complained about it.

 

If Frankfort was a good job to have and I was ready to move myself, my family, and start over.  Sure I'd take it.  I could careless who is in my sectional or regional.  I've got 5 years left in coaching, then I am out...so the answer is no, I have no interest in that job.

 

I am in favor of classing and wrestle backs...those are the things that will fix what we want fixed.  Lastly, Faulkens is on record saying that he doesn't care about the best 16 kids.  The goal is to crown the best state champion.  That is one reason why they fight against the wrestle backs.

You’re right about classing and wrestle-backs—far better solutions in my opinion.

 

I also agree that Faulkens and the rest of IHSAA would never agree to restructure due to competitive balance. I’m just saying it would lead to a better tourney overall in my opinion. But you’re right, it’s a pipe dream.

 

I do think splitting Indy up makes it more even at all levels if wrestle backs aren’t going to be implemented. Wrestle backs at the semi-state level allow for the same solution with much less work so I’d be more in favor of that of course!

 

As to why it’s a big deal now, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I think semi state imbalance has been a big deal for 20ish years, and though they try to even out sectionals and regionals, there’s never been any serious consideration given to really shaking up the semi-states. 


Why? Unsure. Maybe because we like tradition? Maybe because our venues are so good at most of the semi-states? Maybe because nobody can agree what changes should be made because everyone is inherently selfish and wants the easiest path for their schools (not lost on me that the school I coach at would be in Ft. Wayne in my redraw, which is why committees do it, to eliminate bias)

Who truly knows, but the numbers have certainly shown that drawing into the Ft. Wayne semi-state right now is the easiest path to a medal more often than not. I’d be lying if I told you that’s not what we hope for every single time we qualify a kid. I don’t know how strengthening that would ever be considered a bad thing.
 

Ultimately, if the Ft. Wayne area improves overall, it’s a moot point. Perhaps Coach McClurg heading to run the Warrior RTC will help the area. I’ve also seen a couple other posts online about a training center called “The Fort” that could make an impact. As coaches and entrepreneurs see the opportunity to grow the area it will even out.

 

I’m just having fun kicking around hypotheticals that could solve the unbalance now. No matter how far-fetched they are.

 

I always appreciate others perspectives!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Coach Brobst
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The Ft. Wayne area unfortunately is at a disadvantage because they do not have middle school organized wrestling in the area, and there aren't the options to go get outside training like there is in the Indianapolis area. I think that as coaches we need to attempt to help that area rather than just tell them that their semi state is weaker than the rest.

 

My only problem with some of the sectionals and regionals is I don't believe some schools are able to live up to their potential when their sectional has 4 or more ranked wrestlers because there are 4 6A schools in the sectional. I just believe there has to be a better way to allow for some of the sectionals and regionals to be a bit more spread out rather than having the gauntlets that some of these sectionals and regionals are every year.

 

As for Faulkens I think he is right our state champ every year is the right kid who had the best 4 week run, but I think there are lots of kids who don't get to see the floor of Bankers Life that absolutely deserve to be there. I understand that nothing is perfect, but I must believe that we can do something better to benefit these athletes to have the opportunity to show their potential.

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