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Growing Small School Wrestling - with or without classing


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Same thing happens in a huge way at the Perry regional.  My 106 didn't make it through the Perry Regional, but beat 2 Semi State qualifiers and 1 Semi State Quarter finalist at Frosh Soph State last weekend. 

 

Totally understand that geography is a factor.  So the act of balancing sectionals would still need to be reasonable in that regard.  Right now, the sectionals are based primarily/entirely on geography which creates huge imbalance and unintended negative impact on some programs.  So the idea with this proposal is to consider both geography and school size.  

 

The proposal goes to one side of the spectrum creating a classed state champ, but let's abandon that for a moment and just talk about ways to balance the sectionals.  I'll put something together and send out later tonight for everyone's consideration.  The framework is pretty much done already. 

 

I greatly appreciate the dialog and brainstorming.  From my perspective, there's a better way out there.  We just have to figure it out together.  Shame on us if we throw our hands up and let some of these issues persist. 

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Casualwrestling fan, I wrote my post before I saw yours.  There's some good points in the design you're proposing.  Can I contact you offline?  Have some questions.  Are you Adams Central head coach?

 

Greg Hughes

Indianapolis Lutheran

317-753-7786

greg@continuumgames.com

Edited by ghughes1974
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5 minutes ago, ghughes1974 said:

Casualwrestling fan, I wrote my post before I saw yours.  There's some good points in the design you're proposing.  Can I contact you offline?  Have some questions.  Are you South Adams head coach?

 

Greg Hughes

Indianapolis Lutheran

317-753-7786

greg@continuumgames.com

Feel free to contact me offline, but I'm just a fan of the sport and was a 1 year senior wrestler that didn't do so hot! I had wrestled in youth but was born in a wrestling/basketball family and tried to do both and failed at both! I just want to see the sport grow! I believe @Thor could get you in contact with Coach Gaskill. I could tag @jetwrestling and @decbell1who may be able to get in touch and have more say than I could ever dream about.

 

Edit I saw you changed SA to AC @jetwrestlingwould be whom you're looking for!

Edited by casualwrestlingfan
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1 hour ago, ghughes1974 said:

Same thing happens in a huge way at the Perry regional.  My 106 didn't make it through the Perry Regional, but beat 2 Semi State qualifiers and 1 Semi State Quarter finalist at Frosh Soph State last weekend. 

 

Totally understand that geography is a factor.  So the act of balancing sectionals would still need to be reasonable in that regard.  Right now, the sectionals are based primarily/entirely on geography which creates huge imbalance and unintended negative impact on some programs.  So the idea with this proposal is to consider both geography and school size.  

 

The proposal goes to one side of the spectrum creating a classed state champ, but let's abandon that for a moment and just talk about ways to balance the sectionals.  I'll put something together and send out later tonight for everyone's consideration.  The framework is pretty much done already. 

 

I greatly appreciate the dialog and brainstorming.  From my perspective, there's a better way out there.  We just have to figure it out together.  Shame on us if we throw our hands up and let some of these issues persist. 

What about a school with multiple studs at one weight class. Last weekend a kid who was a back up 106 pounder beat a State Qualifier at Frosh/Soph State? 

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No offense intended to the folks in East Central Indiana.  I know you guys are tough.  In the end, I am jealous of you and want what you've got...the ability to wrestle schools of a similar size in the first couple rounds of the tournament.  I believe it would help me better retain wrestlers I'm currently losing and better build up a tough program and culture...the same way you guys have been able to. 

 

And if you are interested in wrestling us, we'd love it.  LMK.

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38 minutes ago, ghughes1974 said:

No offense intended to the folks in East Central Indiana.  I know you guys are tough.  In the end, I am jealous of you and want what you've got...the ability to wrestle schools of a similar size in the first couple rounds of the tournament.  I believe it would help me better retain wrestlers I'm currently losing and better build up a tough program and culture...the same way you guys have been able to. 

 

And if you are interested in wrestling us, we'd love it.  LMK.

No offense on my end! You did 1A proud with your champion. Even though I'm just a fan, I'd love to figure out a solution to help the smaller schools compete and have better numbers!

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Coach Hughes,

                I looked through your proposal and just a couple things I observed.  

-I read several of the posts and the reasons you listed for kids quitting.  That is always unfortunate, however, the kid that said he had a rugby game and didn't want to be there all day.....Do you really think he would be successful even under your new proposal?  At some point he would have the large school monsters in regional, semi state and/or state correct under your new proposal if I'm reading it right?  I really don't see how providing an accommodating sectional would influence that kid to stick with it.  (Just my two cents).

*My alma mater South Bend Riley and I'm sure several large schools have the same issue of retaining kids due to various reasons.  I don't think this is just at small schools but yes I realize a small school losing a kid is a bigger deal than a school that has a larger population of kids to pull from.

 

-On your proposal you have a sectional that I thought needed discussion

Columbus North 

Jeffersonville

Mater Dei

Center Grove

*Where is this one being hosted because that is a significant distance between a few of them depending on the host location.

 

-Some of the sectionals proposed particularly with the 4A schools in addition to the distance are really really tough and quite a few of the 1A ones not so much.  Wouldn't you be creating the same issue for them as what you're trying to avoid with the small schools?  They're going to have kids that could make it through to semi state/state but only three get out of their sectional.  I agree there should be parity but because of geography and the changing talent in the state that's going to be very hard to avoid as we're inevitably going to have hotspots throughout Indiana (Indy area, sometimes Fort Wayne, the Region and yes my old stomping grounds in South Bend/Mishawaka area).   

 

-If you're looking for duals I see that Jay County has reached out to you.  I know that Bellmont has a big tournament and Twin Lakes hosts a pretty good one near the Lafayette area.  All of those are smaller schools but would still provide stellar competition.  

 

Just my two cents, please don't take this personal I'm really just responding to the post, which I think is an important one.  I truly hope this helps you and good luck to your program in the future.  Filipovich was very impressive this year and I wish you luck on finding the next one of his caliber.

 

Brandon Sandefur

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On 3/1/2021 at 9:26 AM, ghughes1974 said:

I should have also mentioned, I don't think the proposal wouldn't require us to change the classification of wrestling to a team sport. 

 

The sport still remains a single class with all schools coming together in the end.

 

 

Now coach I love this idea, but don't kid yourself or try to fool the IHSAA. It is easy to see that this is classing the sport.

 

You are classing the sectionals, you're having a classed team state dual tournament, you're having a classed individual tournament, then simply bringing the best individuals from each class together to maintain the tradition of crowning one single champ per weight class. I don't think it is going to be perceived any other way by the IHSAA than classing.

 

I think it is a great compromise to both keep the tradition of our tournament & help small schools increase interest & hopefully promote growth in the sport throughout the state. But it is clearly classing the sport.

 

One simple change I would make to your semantics, take the word "State" out of the "Classed Individual State Championships" (week 3). Simply call these winners the "Class A Champion", the "Class AA Champion" etc. That way the winners in week 4 are the only ones labeled "State Champion". 

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Brandon, thanks for your response.  Regarding the distance in that proposed sectional, the approach would be to rotate the location each year.  We currently do this in Warren/Shelbyville sectional.  One year its in one place, the next year the other.  Teams still have to drive, but the long drive is every other year.  Perhaps not perfect, but that's the proposed solution.   

 

Max is the name of the kid I spoke about who didn't want to go to sectional.  Max was never going to be a great wrestler.  Started too late, all his training partners were beginners just like him.  Slow road to success.  When Max wrestled for me, my program was hanging on by a thread.  I had 5 guys.  The school told me they canceled wrestling when they were down to 4.  So lots on the line for my program.  When Max wrestled other small schools, he had a fighting chance on the mat and actually did well some of the time. I think what I wanted for Max was to have a fighting chance at sectional.  Win or lose, have a good match out there.  In small school dual meets, Max's chance of winning was 50/50.  As a coach, I can work with that.  Push him to give it all he has and get his very best out of him.  In the Warren/Shelbyville sectional, he had virtually no chance.  That's the problem.  It's impossible to keep the kids engaged when they perceive they have no chance. 

 

I've got another story.  I had a wrestler, Walker, who was a first year kid who drew the state runner up from the prior year in the first round (Jordan Vaughn from FC 4A school).  His teammates were joking with him telling him his goal should be to make it 30 seconds without getting pinned.  After practice he tells me he doesn't want to wrestle the match.  I talk him into it, "you've worked hard all season, everyone competes in sectionals, you do the best you can, its a process, all first year wrestlers pay their dues, etc."  He goes to sectionals and gets pounded.  Walker does not wrestle the next year.  A bad draw could happen to anyone, but it seems to happen often at our sectional. I have more stories.  Let me know.  

Edited by ghughes1974
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The proposal we came up with was geared towards addressing three issues for small schools:

1. Negative impacts of imbalanced sectionals

2. Imbalanced sectionals impacting dual team state participation

3. The reality that very few small school wrestlers make it to state

 

I think it makes sense to create a new thread that talks entirely about the issue of imbalanced sectionals.  I think that issue impacts all schools, not just small schools.  Look for the forum "Creating Balanced Sectionals, Regionals and Semi-States"

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I think if you want to grow small school wrestling it involves a couple things:

1) the high school coach NEEDS to be a major factor in creating a youth feeder program.

2) Install a coach with the same philosophy as you at the middle school.

3) Put your kids on the mat with the big schools, consistently. Show them they can roll with the big boys.

4) Get the community involved big time. 

 

I think all of these things will allow a small school to grow and stay consistently competitive, without lowering the bar for competition by classing the state. 

 

Another option, you could class the state tournament into big school small school, i.e 1A / 2A and 3A/4A through semi state, have 4 big school and 4 small school semi states and then throw them into a 32 man single class bracket at state with true wrestlebacks still placing top 8. Just a compromise idea there from my point of view.

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Thanks coach for your response.  The last idea you shared is something I totally agree with.  It's a variation of what we've proposed but it would absolutely help address many of the challenges we were looking to address with the proposal.  

 

The idea is essentially to class early rounds of the tournament and come together at the Semi State level.  

 

What does everyone think of this?  It would be a significant positive step from my perspective.  

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Coach Hughes - I think they are all interesting proposals.  Ultimately, however it is not about what the fans like me think - your audience has to be the coaches to gain a unified proposal and then the IHSAA.

 

Maybe Y2 could create a coach's-only forum on here where real open discussion can take place, maybe even setup a Zoom meeting for coaches statewide to go over one or two proposals.  Another recommendation I would put out there is to see if Y2 or Maligned or some other braniac would take this year's wrestlers, calculate an index based on sectional/regional performance or rankings - and then show the coaches what the brackets in a semistate/state tournament might look like with your proposal(s).  Seeing the names of wrestlers they are familiar with will either bolster your support, or take it away

 

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