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Faulkens view on Class Wrestling


AJ

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Just now, Galagore said:

 

Point taken. However, the first step to getting it changed is having as many coaches and ADs as possible agreeing that it is a good idea.

 

Good luck with that Galagore. And I don't mean that in any sarcastic way. But you are fighting an up hill battle, and I'm sure it must feel like you are talking to a wall when dealing with the IHSAA powers that be.

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5 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Good luck with that Galagore. And I don't mean that in any sarcastic way. But you are fighting an up hill battle, and I'm sure it must feel like you are talking to a wall when dealing with the IHSAA powers that be.

 

You are correct about IHSAA.

 

As for the community as a whole, we are actually on much better ground that we were ten years ago. The civility of the conversation alone is like another planet from the discussions in 2010, 2011, etc.

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People are saying everyone has the same opportunities to be Champs or placing at state. So here in rural  Churubusco our kids can work out CIA Red Cobra Contenders on any given day of the week. That's the difference. Not many parents are driving 5 hours on a week night to get that experience. It's funny having a close friend that coached a large school. It's the small scool coaches that want that one opportunity to succeed every 4-5 years. Instead of possibly a every year opportunity.

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4 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

People are saying everyone has the same opportunities to be Champs or placing at state. So here in rural  Churubusco our kids can work out CIA Red Cobra Contenders on any given day of the week. That's the difference. Not many parents are driving 5 hours on a week night to get that experience. It's funny having a close friend that coached a large school. It's the small scool coaches that want that one opportunity to succeed every 4-5 years. Instead of possibly a every year opportunity.

Or someone in Fort Wayne could open up something like CIA, etc.

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4 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

People are saying everyone has the same opportunities to be Champs or placing at state. So here in rural  Churubusco our kids can work out CIA Red Cobra Contenders on any given day of the week. That's the difference. Not many parents are driving 5 hours on a week night to get that experience. It's funny having a close friend that coached a large school. It's the small scool coaches that want that one opportunity to succeed every 4-5 years. Instead of possibly a every year opportunity.

 

Here is a link to pretty much all the wrestling clubs throughout the state of Indiana.

 

https://www.iswa.com/findaclub

 

Now not all clubs are created equal, but if you have a wrestler who wants to continue his training outside of the season there is ample opportunity.

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4 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Here is a link to pretty much all the wrestling clubs throughout the state of Indiana.

 

https://www.iswa.com/findaclub

 

Now not all clubs are created equal, but if you have a wrestler who wants to continue his training outside of the season there is ample opportunity.

You do realize the majority of those clubs are just schools that out club on their name and use for their kids at offseason events? Nothing in the Fort Wayne semi state close to a Red Cobra, but at least Tim Myers at Madmen is trying to build something. 

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1 minute ago, Thor said:

You do realize the majority of those clubs are just schools that out club on their name and use for their kids at offseason events? Nothing in the Fort Wayne semi state close to a Red Cobra, but at least Tim Myers at Madmen is trying to build something. 

 

Yes, that is why I said they are not all created equal. But off-season training is widely available and accessibility is not limited to large schools. But I do realize that some schools are going to have more & better options.

Edited by SIACfan
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22 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

People are saying everyone has the same opportunities to be Champs or placing at state. So here in rural  Churubusco our kids can work out CIA Red Cobra Contenders on any given day of the week. That's the difference. Not many parents are driving 5 hours on a week night to get that experience. It's funny having a close friend that coached a large school. It's the small scool coaches that want that one opportunity to succeed every 4-5 years. Instead of possibly a every year opportunity.

"Rural" Chhurubusco... 10 minutes from the second biggest city in the state.

 

Andy Oberlan is opening a wrestlting training facility that sounds really cool. It will be near the zoo.  About 20 minutes from Busco.

Edited by ENoblewrestling
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5 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

"Rural" Chhurubusco... 10 minutes from the second biggest city in the state.

 

Andy Oberlan is opening a wrestlting training facility that sounds really cool. It will be near the zoo.  About 20 minutes from Busco.

 

What about Culver? Caston? Pioneer? South Newton? West Central? etc...

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Yes I know of all of these. Been doing this awhile. Have had kids wrestle at many schools in Northern IN. Those high end Academies  rooms probably had most of the Medals this year. Andy is doing a great service for the area. It's not an overnight turn around. We can beat each other up every night of the week up here. Still is not even close to wrestling Champs and  place finishers every day. 

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In soccer, gymnastics and some other sports - the off-season clubs are the major focus for recruiting and training.  College coaches are not typically going to high school games - they go to off-season high-level tournaments where they can see high performing athletes competing against other high performing athletes.  High school season is almost viewed as the "fun" time when you get to play the sport with school-mates (some of which may train offseason, and others may not)

 

This message board tends to put a high emphasis on school rather than club  

 

As I listened to the broadcasts of semistate and state the past couple weekends - several announcers would make the point of saying "this guy wrestles for Red Cobra" or CIA or Maurer Coughlin.  One of the announcers kept saying that competitors at state have "probably put hands on each other a lot" as they both train out of Region Wrestling Academy or similar

 

It's clear that regional training centers are needed - especially where there are "deserts" such as around the Culver area.  Just a suggestion - ask a couple of the successful clubs like those mentioned above if they would be willing to open their books and their minds to help mentor young people that might be interested in opening similar facilities in other places around the state.  Partner with local businesses to get funding and donations.  Build a brand that is visible at state competitions.  Focus on gaining skills, interest and notoriety through some of the offseason events - that will translate into more participation and success within the school season

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16 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

Yes I know of all of these. Been doing this awhile. Have had kids wrestle at many schools in Northern IN. Those high end Academies  rooms probably had most of the Medals this year. Andy is doing a great service for the area. It's not an overnight turn around. We can beat each other up every night of the week up here. Still is not even close to wrestling Champs and  place finishers every day. 

 

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to agitate you in any way.

 

But those elite academies had to start from scratch in the their beginnings, and what they've accomplished can be replicated. 

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It's evan harder to match the coaching staff at the HS level let alone club coaches. In the Indy area It's alot easier to get kids every night. 30 or 40 minutes you can find all the competition and high end instruction you can ask for. At least people have admitted the large schools do have an advantage over small schools.

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4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So let's put $1000 on it...

 

I'll give you 100 random 1A wrestlers and I'll take 100 random 4A wrestlers all entered in the state series. Whoever gets the most state placers wins the money.

 

Wanna take me up on that?

My point is that I was coaching at a school that needed the multi sport kids just to fill a roster.  Most of the kids did not wrestle as their fist sport.  We all understood that going in.  When I did get the 1 or 2 kids that "Got It", I would take them to the area clubs to get the training that they required to get to the level that they wanted.  And, they were successful at reaching the state level.

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48 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

What about Culver? Caston? Pioneer? South Newton? West Central? etc...

 

West Central has found many different places to wrestle in the offseason, hence the success they had this postseason. Both of their State Qualifiers this year have spent countless hours in our wrestling room, as well as driven to Culver Academies, Rochester, and other places to work on their craft. They also have a 7th Grader who is was Tulsa Runner-Up this year who trains up at Midwest RTC, and has trained up at Bulldog Premier. 

 

Yes, historically, the quantity of State Qualifiers is not equivalent to that of a 3A/4A school, but West Central had about 15 kids on their roster this year and 2 of them were State Qualifiers, and 1 was a Ticket-Rounder. 

 

They have found ways to get better and be competitive, despite not having an academy within an hour. It's difficult, but it can be done. 

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At the end of the day, we all agree that an athlete from a small school is, in

1 minute ago, bomber_bob said:

 

West Central has found many different places to wrestle in the offseason, hence the success they had this postseason. Both of their State Qualifiers this year have spent countless hours in our wrestling room, as well as driven to Culver Academies, Rochester, and other places to work on their craft. They also have a 7th Grader who is was Tulsa Runner-Up this year who trains up at Midwest RTC, and has trained up at Bulldog Premier. 

 

Yes, historically, the quantity of State Qualifiers is not equivalent to that of a 3A/4A school, but West Central had about 15 kids on their roster this year and 2 of them were State Qualifiers, and 1 was a Ticket-Rounder. 

 

They have found ways to get better and be competitive, despite not having an academy within an hour. It's difficult, but it can be done. 

 

Yes, and that is why I used West Central as an example. None of us in favor of class wrestling is insisting it can't be done. We and simply pointing out that the hill to climb is steeper the smaller the school you're at.

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2 hours ago, SIACfan said:

 

Now look what you have done - you've made me have to post again.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting 55%, but basing expectations on total enrollment is perfectly logical. This is because the small schools have less kids to draw their athletes from thus it stands to reason that they will have less elite athletes. It is exactly the reason why small schools are at a huge disadvantage from a team standpoint.

21.70% of the population is at small schools, so that mutiplied by 14 is 3.04, so 3 state champions per year. 

18 state champions in 11 years is 1.6 champions per year

1.6 divided by 3 is .545 or 54.5%

 

I even rounded up

 

2 hours ago, SIACfan said:

Now I can't answer definitively what would happen if schools were allowed multiple entries at each weight, but neither can you. You can speculate as I can.

 

I would speculate that at the sectional & regional levels you would see a big difference, but by the time it got to semi-state & state it wouldn't be a huge change. For the small school guys who are advancing that far are not guys that many large school JV guys could beat. I'm sure you are going to speculate differently, but no one is going to be able to prove anything.

 

FYI, 3 champs per year for the small schools is exactly what I said they should get and that your data shows that they are only getting 2.

If everyone were allowed 20(or another big magical number) of entries it would likely not affect the number of champs. It would have a small affect on the top four and even top eight placers. However, the further you go down the line, the more of an impact there would be. It would definitely affect state qualifiers as we can all name 10 backups that would be in the mix to go to state every year and some years more. It would affect semi-state qualifiers, regional qualifiers and so on. Give the top programs more qualifiers for sectional and it would get even worse for the smaller schools. 

 

When you keep stating the statistics should follow the school population you are basically saying that the system is setup to screw the small schools and that you don't care. Telling someone, hey just go to an academy and you'll be better is a nice underhanded comment to say "just work harder" because you obviously are a lazy POS. 

 

The system is broke, we have lost 25% of our athletes over the past 15 years. We have almost doubled the amount of forfeits at sectional. Those are NOT good numbers at all! We are losing wrestling programs and they aren't big school programs. 

 

As I have asked and no one has seemed to answer:
What would it take for you to acknowledge there is a problem and there needs to be MAJOR changes?
1. Losing 25 programs
2. Losing 50 programs
3. Losing 100 programs
4. 5 forfeits per team
5. 7 forfeits per team
6. Dropping below 5000 athletes
7. Dropping below 4000 athletes

 

No one will answer this question because their head is buried in the sand saying there are no problems with our system. Trying to claim everything is fine, yet the numbers show differently!

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At the end of the day, I think most of us recognize that being from a small school means it is more likely that a wrestler has a more difficult path to success at the state level. Some of us are OK with that, and some of us worry that discrepancy will have long-term negative consequences on the future of the sport in our state.

 

As I have said before, from the perspective of my athletes and my own kids in a vacuum, I am just fine with the current system. However, from a more global perspective of the sport state-wide, our current system really worries me.

Edited by Galagore
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46 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

21.70% of the population is at small schools, so that mutiplied by 14 is 3.04, so 3 state champions per year. 

18 state champions in 11 years is 1.6 champions per year

1.6 divided by 3 is .545 or 54.5%

 

I even rounded up

 

 

I was merely using the 10 year data you posted earlier.

 

1A enrollment - 22.6% thus 14(.226) = 3.16 excuse me for calling that 3 champs per year

1A champ percentage - 14.29% thus 14(0.1429) = 2.0 champs per year

 

Why did you suddenly change the data set? And how does the 10 year champ% go from 14.29% to an 11 year percentage of 11.7% when there were (3) small school champs this year? I know you don't like to include MD in the small schools but when we are talking numbers by enrollment then their champs, placers & qualifiers must be included in the small school set. Does your 10 year data set put MD's wrestlers in the large school set? If so then the number probably more closely follow the enrollment numbers.

 

 

Edited by SIACfan
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33 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Telling someone, hey just go to an academy and you'll be better is a nice underhanded comment to say "just work harder" because you obviously are a lazy POS. 

 

 

Now you are putting words into my mouth for I have never said this.

 

One particular poster mentioned how many of the champs are coming from Red Cobra & that the wrestlers in his area were unlikely to drive 5 hours one way to attend. I then merely pointed out Red Cobra is not the only club in the state. I acknowledged that they are not all created equal. But in no way shape or form did I try & tell anyone they should "just work harder because they are a lazy POS".

 

I take great offense that you have now suggested that I have insinuated this.

Edited by SIACfan
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11 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

I was merely using the 10 year data you posted earlier.

 

1A enrollment - 22.6% thus 14(.226) = 3.16 excuse me for calling that 3 champs per year

1A champ percentage - 14.29% thus 14(0.1429) = 2.0 champs per year

 

Why did you suddenly change the data set? And how does the 10 year champ% go from 14.29% to an 11 year percentage of 11.7% when there were (3) small school champs this year? I know you don't like to include MD in the small schools but when we are numbers by enrollment then their champs, placers & qualifiers must be included in the small school set. Does your 10 year data set put MD's wrestlers in the large school set? If so then the number probably more closely follow the enrollment numbers.

 

 

There was 1 small school champion, Hayden Filipovich.

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43 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

As I have asked and no one has seemed to answer:

What would it take for you to acknowledge there is a problem and there needs to be MAJOR changes?
1. Losing 25 programs
2. Losing 50 programs
3. Losing 100 programs
4. 5 forfeits per team
5. 7 forfeits per team
6. Dropping below 5000 athletes
7. Dropping below 4000 athletes

 

No one will answer this question because their head is buried in the sand saying there are no problems with our system. Trying to claim everything is fine, yet the numbers show differently!

 

You yourself have posted data showing that the number of programs have not changed that much over the last what was it 20 years.

 

I have repeatedly stated that I am not against class wrestling. That I agree that class wrestling will give more kids the opportunity at success. That success breeds interest & that could likely result in growth of the sport.

 

I'm sorry that I like the fact that Indiana crowns one champ per weight class. I guess I am just selfish.

Edited by SIACfan
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