SIACfan Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Galagore said: If each school were allowed to enter two per weight, do you expect the number of state qualifiers per school size to: a) change in favor of small schools b) change in favor of large schools c) remain pretty much the same Again, you are talking school advantage. I have repeatedly admitted that large schools have an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Should we do anything about the large schools that aren't having success? Ben Davis had 0 qualifiers, Carmel only 3 for example. How about programs that have strong tradition that aren't having that success now? Lawrence North only 1 qualifier. Castle only 1. Bloom South with 3. With all those advantages, shouldn't they be doing better? goalittlegreco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleJimmy Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Guys...Congrats on reaching the 10 page thread total!!! I think that matches last year..but not close to the 15+ from a couple years ago! You can do it!!! LFG!!! BTW..shoutout to @SIACfan for taking the baton. Can I just get a permanent like for his posts? Keep up God's work. Also, you know you made a good point when they suddenly change their hypotheticals! It's their way of acknowledging you. Carry on..... goalittlegreco, indianmorg, Galagore and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said: Guys...Congrats on reaching the 10 page thread total!!! I think that matches last year..but not close to the 15+ from a couple years ago! You can do it!!! LFG!!! BTW..shoutout to @SIACfan for taking the baton. Can I just get a permanent like for his posts? Keep up God's work. Also, you know you made a good point when they suddenly change their hypotheticals! It's their way of acknowledging you. Carry on..... I knew you could only resist for so long. UncleJimmy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 I would hate for people like @ENoblewrestling to fudge numbers as they please, but alas I will show true numbers Data for the past 11 years https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18PWUXrlIjvzl_-I-HaflCB2w-r0a_sTkH-WWOcFKl2g/edit?usp=sharing There is also data for 3 classes and the IHSWCA 4 class system. Strictly speaking on a 1A and 2A level 1A = 22.6% of the population 2A= 77.4% of the population Qualifiers 1A- 20.63% 2A- 79.37% Placers 1A- 16.72% 2A- 83.28% Champions 1A- 14.29% 2A- 85.71% Top 4 1A- 14.61% 2A- 85.39% So based on that data the qualifiers are close to the enrollment numbers but placers, champions, and top 4 are way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, SIACfan said: Again, you are talking school advantage. I have repeatedly admitted that large schools have an advantage. If small schools should get "their share" of placers, medal winners, etc., shouldn't that stay the same regardless of how many entries are allowed? The individuals in those extra entries would have no more or less advantage than the ones in the standard entries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSKEEWRESTLER Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 You don't win state championships, or even qualify for state, based on your school size. You do it with the hard off season work that happens in RTC's and finding the best competition to wrestle. Bigger schools have an advantage because they are in more rural areas. If a kid, and their parents, want to put in the effort, it can happen. It takes more effort, but they are wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, MUSKEEWRESTLING said: You don't win state championships, or even qualify for state, based on your school size. You do it with the hard off season work that happens in RTC's and finding the best competition to wrestle. Bigger schools have an advantage because they are in more rural areas. If a kid, and their parents, want to put in the effort, it can happen. It takes more effort, but they are wrestlers. So let's put $1000 on it... I'll give you 100 random 1A wrestlers and I'll take 100 random 4A wrestlers all entered in the state series. Whoever gets the most state placers wins the money. Wanna take me up on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie78 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Galagore said: So...you think good wrestling school with 2800 students, same thing as good wrestling school with 400 students? Prairie Heights basically the same as Crown Point? Yes, pretty much the same thing....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, rookie78 said: Yes, pretty much the same thing....lol Sorry, wasn't trying to throw you under the bus...actually, just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie78 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Just now, Galagore said: Sorry, wasn't trying to throw you under the bus...actually, just the opposite. No harm done. I understand your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: I would hate for people like @ENoblewrestling to fudge numbers as they please, but alas I will show true numbers Data for the past 11 years https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18PWUXrlIjvzl_-I-HaflCB2w-r0a_sTkH-WWOcFKl2g/edit?usp=sharing There is also data for 3 classes and the IHSWCA 4 class system. Strictly speaking on a 1A and 2A level 1A = 22.6% of the population 2A= 77.4% of the population Qualifiers 1A- 20.63% 2A- 79.37% Placers 1A- 16.72% 2A- 83.28% Champions 1A- 14.29% 2A- 85.71% Top 4 1A- 14.61% 2A- 85.39% So based on that data the qualifiers are close to the enrollment numbers but placers, champions, and top 4 are way off. Fudge the numbers as I please. Haha this is exactally what i've said since my original post which was- So I dont really want to get dragged into this argument again. I am against classing the individual tournament. Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state. When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools, I think there are arguments for the stats on that. I do apologize for not memorizing what % of the population the groups made up. Edited February 25, 2021 by ENoblewrestling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: I would hate for people like @ENoblewrestling to fudge numbers as they please, but alas I will show true numbers Data for the past 11 years https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18PWUXrlIjvzl_-I-HaflCB2w-r0a_sTkH-WWOcFKl2g/edit?usp=sharing There is also data for 3 classes and the IHSWCA 4 class system. Strictly speaking on a 1A and 2A level 1A = 22.6% of the population 2A= 77.4% of the population Qualifiers 1A- 20.63% 2A- 79.37% Placers 1A- 16.72% 2A- 83.28% Champions 1A- 14.29% 2A- 85.71% Top 4 1A- 14.61% 2A- 85.39% So based on that data the qualifiers are close to the enrollment numbers but placers, champions, and top 4 are way off. Thanks for sharing that info. I actually really appreciate all you do for this forum. And one last time, I do acknowledge that small schools would benefit from a classed system. The worst deviation is in the amount of champs generated & that is only 8.31%. While it looks like a big loss for the small schools (8.31/22.6 = 36.8% loss), it only equates to the loss of one champ per year on average. 22.6% of 14 weight classes would dictate that small schools should have (3) champs per year. 14.29% of 14 weight classes shows that they are only getting (2) champs per year on average. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said: I would hate for people like @ENoblewrestling to fudge numbers as they please, but alas I will show true numbers Data for the past 11 years https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18PWUXrlIjvzl_-I-HaflCB2w-r0a_sTkH-WWOcFKl2g/edit?usp=sharing There is also data for 3 classes and the IHSWCA 4 class system. Strictly speaking on a 1A and 2A level 1A = 22.6% of the population 2A= 77.4% of the population Qualifiers 1A- 20.63% 2A- 79.37% Placers 1A- 16.72% 2A- 83.28% Champions 1A- 14.29% 2A- 85.71% Top 4 1A- 14.61% 2A- 85.39% So based on that data the qualifiers are close to the enrollment numbers but placers, champions, and top 4 are way off. I am going to make one more post in this topic (I think, I reserve the right to post again). And brace yourself Y2 because I am probably going to rile you up again. I love this data even though it supports the small school proponents. It shows that when it comes to champs that small schools are losing 1 of 3 champs per year - a 33.3% loss (1/3) And that large schools are gaining 1 champ per year on the (11) expected - an increase of 9.1% (1/11) But the better way to look at it (IMO), is that the swing is 1 out of 14 (14 weight classes) in favor of large schools - a 7.1% advantage (1/14) So, IMO it is logical & reasonable to conclude that large schools provide an individual with a 7.1% advantage over small schools for some reason. The reasons can be debated & are most certainly varied. But that advantage is not nearly as huge as many want to believe. Edited February 25, 2021 by SIACfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, SIACfan said: I am going to make one more post in this topic (I think, I reserve the right to post again). And brace yourself Y2 because I am probably going to rile you up again. I love this data even though it supports the small school proponents. It shows that when it comes to champs that small schools are losing 1 of 3 champs per year - a 33.3% loss (1/3) And that large schools are gaining 1 champ per year on the (11) expected - an increase of 9.1% (1/11) But the better way to look at it (IMO), is that the swing is 1 out of 14 (14 weight classes) in favor of large schools - a 7.1% advantage (1/14) So, IMO it is logical & reasonable to conclude that large schools provide an individual with a 7.1% advantage over small schools for some reason. The reasons can be debated & are most certainly varied. But that advantage is not as nearly a huge as many want to believe. Actually small schools should be getting 3 champions per year by your connotation that each school enters their whole student body into the state series. That means they are only getting 55% of their state champions that they should each year. When you go to state top 4 placers the disparity is not much better as they are only getting 62% of their intended top 4 placements. How much different would these numbers be if everyone could enter 20 wrestlers in the state tournament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 As we do every year with this topic, I think we have clearly arrived in Yanny/Laurel or white-gold dress vs black-blue dress territory between the 2 sides. goalittlegreco and base 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: Actually small schools should be getting 3 champions per year by your connotation that each school enters their whole student body into the state series. That means they are only getting 55% of their state champions that they should each year. When you go to state top 4 placers the disparity is not much better as they are only getting 62% of their intended top 4 placements. How much different would these numbers be if everyone could enter 20 wrestlers in the state tournament? Now look what you have done - you've made me have to post again. I'm not sure where you are getting 55%, but basing expectations on total enrollment is perfectly logical. This is because the small schools have less kids to draw their athletes from thus it stands to reason that they will have less elite athletes. It is exactly the reason why small schools are at a huge disadvantage from a team standpoint. Now I can't answer definitively what would happen if schools were allowed multiple entries at each weight, but neither can you. You can speculate as I can. I would speculate that at the sectional & regional levels you would see a big difference, but by the time it got to semi-state & state it wouldn't be a huge change. For the small school guys who are advancing that far are not guys that many large school JV guys could beat. I'm sure you are going to speculate differently, but no one is going to be able to prove anything. FYI, 3 champs per year for the small schools is exactly what I said they should get and that your data shows that they are only getting 2. Edited February 25, 2021 by SIACfan Silence Dogood 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwoodjc89 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 What if, in a 3 class system we had 3 state tournaments held on different days. 1A on Thusday, 2A Friday, 3A Saturday. Those could rotate days every year. We would have 3 chances to see championship matches under the lights. Or in a two class 1A on Friday and 2A on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, bwoodjc89 said: What if, in a 3 class system we had 3 state tournaments held on different days. 1A on Thusday, 2A Friday, 3A Saturday. Those could rotate days every year. We would have 3 chances to see championship matches under the lights. Or in a two class 1A on Friday and 2A on Saturday. Marginally jealous that I didn't think of this idea myself. bwoodjc89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) I look at the data and one thing that keeps popping out to me is that it seems like a small amount of schools are dominating wrestling. 8 wrestling schools (Cathedral, Brownsburg, Warren Central, Chesterton, EMD, PM, Crown Point and Penn) had 25% of ALL the qualifiers.... If you add East Central and Floyd Central into that mix this year, then you we at 29.4% of ALL state qualifiers in just 10 schools. Edited February 25, 2021 by AJ Silence Dogood and base 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, AJ said: I look at the data and one thing that keeps popping out to me is that it seems like a small amount of schools are dominating wrestling. 8 wrestling r schools (Cathedral, Brownsburg, Warren Central, Chesterton, EMD, PM, Crown Point and Penn) had 25% of ALL the qualifiers.... If you add East Central and Floyd Central into that mix this year, then you we at 29.4% of ALL state qualifiers in just 10 schools. interesting is 4 from NC, 3 from ECC, 3 from Jasper. So question is what percent of small school qualifiers come from FW semi-state and what percent of the semi-state is made of of small schools? I do have follow-up questions. Are there stats for each semi-state comparing enrollment and qualifiers for each semi-state? Just curious if each semi-state follows the same trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 So what did Faulkens say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformedPoster Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, TripleB said: So what did Faulkens say? Class wrestling ain't happenin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, TripleB said: So what did Faulkens say? Point taken. However, the first step to getting it changed is having as many coaches and ADs as possible agreeing that it is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 27 minutes ago, AJ said: I look at the data and one thing that keeps popping out to me is that it seems like a small amount of schools are dominating wrestling. 8 wrestling schools (Cathedral, Brownsburg, Warren Central, Chesterton, EMD, PM, Crown Point and Penn) had 25% of ALL the qualifiers.... If you add East Central and Floyd Central into that mix this year, then you we at 29.4% of ALL state qualifiers in just 10 schools. You know I was commenting on this the other day. It really seems like there are about 8-10 schools that dominate... most of the rest of the teams are fairly similar in numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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