Faulkens view on Class Wrestling

[Y2CJ41]

2 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

But they do support his statement.

 

The 4A-6A schools account for 71% of the High School enrollment in Indiana.

 

162 of 224 Qualifiers is 72%. That matches pretty darn close.

 

That is with the sectional entries stifled at 14 for each school. What would those numbers look like if those schools could enter 20 kids at sectional? I know there are some places where they have state level kids that can't find a spot in the lineup.

[SIACfan]

5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

That is with the sectional entries stifled at 14 for each school. What would those numbers look like if those schools could enter 20 kids at sectional? I know there are some places where they have state level kids that can't find a spot in the lineup.

 

I can't answer that definitively, but neither can you.

 

I'm sure that is the case in a few instances, but I doubt it would be a big number. Most of the time a state level kid is going to find a spot, either at his most natural weight or 1up or 1 down from it.

[bbulldog152]

1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said:

In my scenario you would only be increasing recognition for really one school, EMD.  You would still have kids from smaller schools saying they have no shot because EMD is in their way.  Just like you have it now where they are supposedly saying that they have no shot because Brownsburg or Crown Point or Perry is in their way.

So you're saying, lets going through almost the entirety of the top 20 teams in the state is just as bad as going through MD? According to the final over all team rankings if you include MD in the small schools only 2 small schools are in the top 20 the other being Garret at 20. For these small schools not just about having a chance to win state it's about having their team advance as far as they can. A team that is second in the state sounds a lot better than a team thats 20th. 

[Clint Gard]

28 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

But they do support his statement.

 

The 4A-6A schools account for 71% of the High School enrollment in Indiana.

 

162 of 224 Qualifiers is 72%. That matches pretty darn close.

 

Agreed but it doesn't support his original statement, which is what I was referring to.

[ENoblewrestling]

30 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

Agreed but it doesn't support his original statement, which is what I was referring to.

"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.  When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools"

 

Above is the orginal statement.  How does 12% of the population making up 12% of the qualifiers show a disadvantage to that 12%? Unless you use the thought process that they should make up 33% of the qualfiers then statistically there is not a disavantage to an indvidual at a small school.

I am not saying there are not other arguments that can be made that an indvidual small school kid are at a disadvantage.  I am saying that the stats dont tend to show that to be the case.

Edited February 24, 2021 by ENoblewrestling

[CFleshman]

How many of the remaining 62 qualifiers are from the Fort Wayne semi-state? We don't have the big power schools to compete against. That number would definitely be a lot smaller. The small schools in the other semi-states are the ones it's  hurting the most. 

[nkraus]

19 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.  When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools"

 

Above is the orginal statement.  How does 12% of the population making up 12% of the qualifiers show a disadvantage to that 12%? Unless you use the thought process that they should make up 33% of the qualfiers then statistically there is not a disavantage to an indvidual at a small school.

I am not saying there are not other arguments that can be made that an indvidual small school kid are at a disadvantage.  I am saying that the stats dont tend to show that to be the case.

Understood.  Just read the part where you said advantage to bigger schools for placers and champs.  
 

What would happen in terms of qualifiers for the following if Heights, Garrett, Cowan, Wabash, and Oak Hill were in New Castle or Jasper Ss?

 

And yes I know all the above have had placers, but what would happen on average if we took a ten year span ?

[HornetPride]

16 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

How many of the remaining 62 qualifiers are from the Fort Wayne semi-state? We don't have the big power schools to compete against. That number would definitely be a lot smaller. The small schools in the other semi-states are the ones it's  hurting the most. 

This is an interesting point given how weak the FW semi state is overall, it is much more likely for small schools to have success and get qualifiers through, this seems like the closest thing to a "small school class" test case you're gonna get any time soon, so what do the numbers say?

 

Are schools in the FW semi-state losing participants at the same rate as the others? losing more? losing less? gaining? 

If retention in FW is the same as retention in New Castle then clearly Classing wrestling won't actually solve the issue. If retention is significantly better then you may have a point. Anybody have the data on this?

[ENoblewrestling]

34 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

How many of the remaining 62 qualifiers are from the Fort Wayne semi-state? We don't have the big power schools to compete against. That number would definitely be a lot smaller. The small schools in the other semi-states are the ones it's  hurting the most. 

 

32 minutes ago, nkraus said:

Understood.  Just read the part where you said advantage to bigger schools for placers and champs.  
 

What would happen in terms of qualifiers for the following if Heights, Garrett, Cowan, Wabash, and Oak Hill were in New Castle or Jasper Ss?

 

And yes I know all the above have had placers, but what would happen on average if we took a ten year span ?

 

In terms of placer/ qualifiers I said in the OP that the stats say there is a disadvantage. I like to think there are other explanations for that. I'm trying to stay out of this whole debate though lol.  I just wanted to show everyone I could make a chart.

I have thought of these same questions. I think that the numbers may go down if that was the situation, but its hard to say what would happen for certain. It really depends on who you move to replace them. Does some other small school in those semi-states gain success?

In the end I feel like I've been through this debate a million times. In that original post I was just saying what the stats showed historically.  I'm not really trying to change anyone's mine on the topic.

I thought about just posting the chart and not making the statement.  I wish I had done that now lol.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by ENoblewrestling

[Clint Gard]

51 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

"Every year the numbers statically show that there is no advantage to an individual in terms of making semi-state or state.  When it comes to placers/ champs there will be an advantage to bigger schools"

 

Above is the orginal statement.  How does 12% of the population making up 12% of the qualifiers show a disadvantage to that 12%? Unless you use the thought process that they should make up 33% of the qualfiers then statistically there is not a disavantage to an indvidual at a small school.

I am not saying there are not other arguments that can be made that an indvidual small school kid are at a disadvantage.  I am saying that the stats dont tend to show that to be the case.

How many 1A-3A schools are there?  How many 5A-6A schools?  I believe 1A-3A make up more than 12% of the population don’t they?  

Again...there are 64 schools in 5A and 6A.  How many in 4A?  I don’t know but let’s say it’s 100.  That’s 164 schools out of 310?  That’s 53% of schools and they had 71% of the qualifiers.  So 1A-3A make up 47% of the population and had 29% of the qualifiers.  I’m guessing my 100 4A schools is high.  Maybe not.  Either way...that is a an advantage. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Clint Gard

[Y2CJ41]

11 minutes ago, HornetPride said:

This is an interesting point given how weak the FW semi state is overall, it is much more likely for small schools to have success and get qualifiers through, this seems like the closest thing to a "small school class" test case you're gonna get any time soon, so what do the numbers say?

 

Are schools in the FW semi-state losing participants at the same rate as the others? losing more? losing less? gaining? 

If retention in FW is the same as retention in New Castle then clearly Classing wrestling won't actually solve the issue. If retention is significantly better then you may have a point. Anybody have the data on this?

You mean this?

 

Forfeits	1A	2A	3A	4A	Total
Fort Wayne	133	49	32	4	218
Evansville	145	108	39	13	305
New Castle	145	111	17	22	295
East Chicago	125	104	62	5	296
Teams	1A	2A	3A	4A	Total
Fort Wayne	27	25	14	3	69
Evansville	19	25	23	8	75
New Castle	25	20	9	15	69
East Chicago	21	20	14	9	64
Forfeits/ Team	1A	2A	3A	4A	Total
Fort Wayne	4.93	1.96	2.29	1.33	3.16
Evansville	7.63	4.32	1.70	1.63	4.07
New Castle	5.80	5.55	1.89	1.47	4.28
East Chicago	5.95	5.20	4.43	0.56	4.63

[ENoblewrestling]

1 minute ago, Clint Gard said:

How many 1A-3A schools are there?  How many 5A-6A schools?  I believe 1A-3A make up more than 12% of the population don’t they?  

I'm not sure on the exact numbers... I just made that up for the example.  I can tell you historically the qualification numbers have mirrored the population numbers.

[Galagore]

15 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

I'm not sure on the exact numbers... I just made that up for the example.  I can tell you historically the qualification numbers have mirrored the population numbers.

 

If class proponents were making claims about data without actually providing the data, we would be mocked.

[ReformedPoster]

2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Who would it only affect Mater Dei? So the other schools that would have a drastic increase in qualifiers and placers wouldn't be affected? 

 

Trying to use the reasoning that one school would get more success to not have classed wrestling is flat out silly.

Looks like we have different definitions of recognition.  Recognition to me is state titles, because that would tend to get more looks from colleges than, say the 8th place finisher in 1A.  I get it.  Some schools view success differently and would be thrilled to have a few qualifiers every couple of years or so.  Some would be happy with a placer or 2 and some would be happy to get a champ every now and then.  In this hypothetical, and that is likely all class wrestling will ever be, I have EMD opting to stay in their enrollment class.  there would be several years that they would have 10+ placers and several champs.  They would run roughshod over the competition. 

 

All I'm saying is that I think small schools would soon realize that they have a rather large obstacle to get over to reach their goal of winning a few titles, much less a team title, if the Red/Gold giant from down south decided to stay in 1A.  But they have demonstrated that they are willing to bump up to take on the mega schools and would likely do so in the unlikely event that class wrestling becomes a reality.  Schools like North Posey and Tell City would certainly be a big obstacle for a lot of smaller schools to overcome as well.  I think you'd still see just a handful of teams snatching up the medals in the smallest class on a year to year basis.

[Y2CJ41]

4 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

Looks like we have different definitions of recognition.  Recognition to me is state titles, because that would tend to get more looks from colleges than, say the 8th place finisher in 1A.  I get it.  Some schools view success differently and would be thrilled to have a few qualifiers every couple of years or so.  Some would be happy with a placer or 2 and some would be happy to get a champ every now and then.  In this hypothetical, and that is likely all class wrestling will ever be, I have EMD opting to stay in their enrollment class.  there would be several years that they would have 10+ placers and several champs.  They would run roughshod over the competition. 

 

All I'm saying is that I think small schools would soon realize that they have a rather large obstacle to get over to reach their goal of winning a few titles, much less a team title, if the Red/Gold giant from down south decided to stay in 1A.  But they have demonstrated that they are willing to bump up to take on the mega schools and would likely do so in the unlikely event that class wrestling becomes a reality.  Schools like North Posey and Tell City would certainly be a big obstacle for a lot of smaller schools to overcome as well.  I think you'd still see just a handful of teams snatching up the medals in the smallest class on a year to year basis.

One obstacle is better than 100 obstacles and knowing already that 75% of the placements and qualifications go to the top 100 teams. It is purely hypothetical what a school would do in terms of their classification at this point.

 

There is no way "just a handful of teams" would be snatching up medals. There will be your usuals, then there will be quite a few schools that do not have regular qualifiers and placers in our current system.

[ENoblewrestling]

37 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

If class proponents were making claims about data without actually providing the data, we would be mocked.

I do not think that I ever claimed to know the exact numbers.  I tried to go out of my way to point that out every time I posted.  I've been really careful to point out that I haven't seen this years data as well.
I've been through these discussions a million times.  Historically the numbers have always mirrored the general population.  For me at the state and semi-state level those numbers show that there isn't a disadvantage.  Others are free to feel how they want and to interpret the data how they want.  

Again I am not trying to change anyone's feelings on the topic.  I posted a chart and a table with information that I thought was somewhat interesting. 

While I never felt oppressed, or cheated by the system while at a small school, others may have different experiences so who am I to tell them they are wrong?  

Anyhow with all of that being said the stats generally do show that the % of qualifiers has mirrored the % of the population.  Feel free to take from that whatever you would like.

 

[ENoblewrestling]

1 hour ago, Clint Gard said:

How many 1A-3A schools are there?  How many 5A-6A schools?  I believe 1A-3A make up more than 12% of the population don’t they?  

Again...there are 64 schools in 5A and 6A.  How many in 4A?  I don’t know but let’s say it’s 100.  That’s 164 schools out of 310?  That’s 53% of schools and they had 71% of the qualifiers.  So 1A-3A make up 47% of the population and had 29% of the qualifiers.  I’m guessing my 100 4A schools is high.  Maybe not.  Either way...that is a an advantage. 

Again I am not sure on the exact numbers/percents.  Anytime the information has been posted in the past it has been divided up into three classes (with around 103 schools per class).  The classes have tended to look similar to the overall population. Again I haven't seen this years numbers and it may look different this year.

[Galagore]

57 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

I do not think that I ever claimed to know the exact numbers.  I tried to go out of my way to point that out every time I posted.  I've been really careful to point out that I haven't seen this years data as well.
I've been through these discussions a million times.  Historically the numbers have always mirrored the general population.  For me at the state and semi-state level those numbers show that there isn't a disadvantage.  Others are free to feel how they want and to interpret the data how they want.  

Again I am not trying to change anyone's feelings on the topic.  I posted a chart and a table with information that I thought was somewhat interesting. 

While I never felt oppressed, or cheated by the system while at a small school, others may have different experiences so who am I to tell them they are wrong?  

Anyhow with all of that being said the stats generally do show that the % of qualifiers has mirrored the % of the population.  Feel free to take from that whatever you would like.

 

 

Exactly. You don't know the numbers. When I have made statements about numbers without actually providing the numbers, I have been hacked to pieces.

 

I do not feel oppressed. I feel scared of losing the sport over the next 10 or so years. This is something I do not casually drop into conversation (first mention in any class wrestling thread this season) but I have coached twice under the lights. For my personal experiences, We have had more success at the state tournament then I ever could have dreamed when I started coaching so many years ago. This is not about me and my feelings of being cheated. This about the health of my favorite sport in my home state.

 

Wrestling in Indiana will not die from the top down. It will die from the bottom up.

[rookie78]

 

Anyone, besides me, think that some of the reason the numbers are shrinking is due the kids/parents themselves? 

 

I have been teaching for nearly 20 years and coaching for a while; wrestling (youth, middle school, high school) 10 years and softball (youth through high school) 10 years.

 

During this time, I have seen a big difference in kids.  The biggest thing I have witnessed is many kids that have the time (kids that don't work or don't have to work) just don't want to. 

 

Many simply just don't want to work that hard. Kids don't want to be JV for a year or two before becoming Varsity (if at all, we have graduated several wrestlers that have been 4 year jv kids). It's time commitment.  It's off-season work.  It's time in the weight room.  It's money. I think it's a generational thing too, among many others.  

 

I graduated HS in 1997.  When I was a kid, we were always out playing sports, riding bikes, swimming, etc.  A lot of the kids my age, as well as myself, started families and having kids at similar times. Nearly all of our kids grew up together playing sports (baseball, softball, basketball, soccer, wrestling, football, volleyball, etc.).

 

Most of our kids are all in HS now, give or a take a year or two, and are still involved in athletics. It seems to me as if some of the younger generation parents (younger than my 42 years) are not quite as sports driven/oriented.  Maybe it's the technology that kids have access to compared to what I had access to as a kid. Maybe they weren't put into sports as kids and now the cycle is repeating itself with their kids.

 

My dad was a coach.  He put me in sports and I practiced and I played until season was over and I would then pick up the next sport. I have done the same with my kids.  It's not because I was a great athlete or because I was on great teams, nor because my kids are/were.  It was about teaching life lessons.

 

Are as many parents today putting kids in sports?  Are those that do having their kids stick out the season, or are they letting kids quit during season when things don't go their way? Is the next generation not seeing the importance that sports can play in a kid's life?

 

Just my thoughts from a small school and small community perspective. 

 

Prairie Heights has roughly 105 kids per grade. We are tucked in between cornfields in mostly Lagrange County.  Our school doesn't have a particular town or city, but we serve the communities of Stroh, Hudson, Brushy Prairie, Mongo, Orland, South Milford, Helmer, Salem Center, and even more rural parts of both Lagrange and Steuben counties.

 

 

[CFleshman]

How about a spreadsheet of qualifiers and place finishers for each semi state bye class? I'm sure Joe already has it.

[Galagore]

1 hour ago, rookie78 said:

 

Anyone, besides me, think that some of the reason the numbers are shrinking is due the kids/parents themselves? 

 

I have been teaching for nearly 20 years and coaching for a while; wrestling (youth, middle school, high school) 10 years and softball (youth through high school) 10 years.

 

During this time, I have seen a big difference in kids.  The biggest thing I have witnessed is many kids that have the time (kids that don't work or don't have to work) just don't want to. 

 

Many simply just don't want to work that hard. Kids don't want to be JV for a year or two before becoming Varsity (if at all, we have graduated several wrestlers that have been 4 year jv kids). It's time commitment.  It's off-season work.  It's time in the weight room.  It's money. I think it's a generational thing too, among many others.  

 

I graduated HS in 1997.  When I was a kid, we were always out playing sports, riding bikes, swimming, etc.  A lot of the kids my age, as well as myself, started families and having kids at similar times. Nearly all of our kids grew up together playing sports (baseball, softball, basketball, soccer, wrestling, football, volleyball, etc.).

 

Most of our kids are all in HS now, give or a take a year or two, and are still involved in athletics. It seems to me as if some of the younger generation parents (younger than my 42 years) are not quite as sports driven/oriented.  Maybe it's the technology that kids have access to compared to what I had access to as a kid. Maybe they weren't put into sports as kids and now the cycle is repeating itself with their kids.

 

My dad was a coach.  He put me in sports and I practiced and I played until season was over and I would then pick up the next sport. I have done the same with my kids.  It's not because I was a great athlete or because I was on great teams, nor because my kids are/were.  It was about teaching life lessons.

 

Are as many parents today putting kids in sports?  Are those that do having their kids stick out the season, or are they letting kids quit during season when things don't go their way? Is the next generation not seeing the importance that sports can play in a kid's life?

 

Just my thoughts from a small school and small community perspective. 

 

Prairie Heights has roughly 105 kids per grade. We are tucked in between cornfields in mostly Lagrange County.  Our school doesn't have a particular town or city, but we serve the communities of Stroh, Hudson, Brushy Prairie, Mongo, Orland, South Milford, Helmer, Salem Center, and even more rural parts of both Lagrange and Steuben counties.

 

 

That may be true...however, it does seem odd that while Indiana wrestling participation is down, national wrestling participation is up. Why is wrestling getting more popular in the country and less popular in the state?

[SIACfan]

6 hours ago, Clint Gard said:

Agreed but it doesn't support his original statement, which is what I was referring to.

 

I'm not sure what statement you are referring to.

 

But it does support his basic premise which is that if the percentage of small school state qualifiers closely mirrors the percentage of small school enrollment then it is evidence that small school individuals are preforming at the level that should be expected.

 

So when you or whoever presented the stats that 162 out of 224 qualifiers were from 4A, 5A & 6A schools and conclude this to be evidence of large school advantage without considering that the enrollment percentage of those schools would suggest that they should have that many qualifiers almost exactly then... It is a poor argument at best.

 

[rookie78]

10 minutes ago, Galagore said:

That may be true...however, it does seem odd that while Indiana wrestling participation is down, national wrestling participation is up. Why is wrestling getting more popular in the country and less popular in the state?

Other states have been sanctioning girl's/women's wrestling.  Im sure that is helping other states, where we are still behind on that topic, although programs around the state have implemented it within their programs.

[SIACfan]

Large schools most definitely have a significant advantage over small schools.

 

Individuals from large schools do not necessarily have a significant advantage over individuals from small schools in an individual sport.

 

Now some large schools will offer better practice partners, better facilities & possibly better coaching. But the biggest majority of the kids who are qualifying for state are not wrestling only during the high school season. During the off season they are wrestling in tournaments, attending camps &/or are part of an elite club. Some may be all in on wrestling while others work this off season stuff around their other interests. But they are doing some wrestling in the off season.

[Galagore]

49 minutes ago, rookie78 said:

Other states have been sanctioning girl's/women's wrestling.  Im sure that is helping other states, where we are still behind on that topic, although programs around the state have implemented it within their programs.

 

Boys wrestling has also grown nationwide. Actually, when I looked those numbers up to start with (finding the same result - growing nationally, declining in Indiana) I accidentally used only boys, then went back and updated to total participation.