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Wrestlebacks and 2-class individual tournamnet - compare and contrast


Galagore

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13 hours ago, Galagore said:

Why should we have wrestlebacks, then? Isn't it way more exciting to have so much riding on the first two rounds of semi-state? Doesn't that make for a much more fun tournament to watch?

Playing devil's advocate here on a couple points on why one feels palatable and the other not: taking away our current non-wrestleback system--especially at semi-state--doesn't diminish tradition or excitement in people's minds they way you're thinking. Blood rounds just shift to other spots on the bracket and still exist. And the biggest outcry about wrestlebacks is in fact that NOT having them goes counter to "how we do things." Classed individual wrestling feels like a much more tangible detriment to the state finals crown jewel in terms of both excitement and tradition.

Edited by maligned
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@base and @maligned

Thank you for addressing my question and for realizing the non-confrontational nature of my question. Both of you provide logic I can understand, if not agree with. Hopefully everyone realizes that I am not trying to challenge the idea of wrestlebacks.

 

I am just trying to marry the idea of it being "unfair" for a wrestler to get a bad draw, and that injustice is something that needs to be fixed. However, when it is "unfair" that a wrestler grows up in a (smaller) community with a significantly less likely chance of having the developmental opportunities of another (larger) means the wrestler needs to just deal with the unfairness and work harder.

 

Trust me, I am just trying to understand the other side of the argument here. Also, I think that wrestlebacks in a classed individual tournament is ideal, and that one or the other is something I can live with. However, I will admit (at this point) if I had to pick one, I would pick class (shocker, I know).

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53 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Why is the matches that decide who moves on & who goes home more exciting if it happens in the first 2 rounds?

 

It has already been pointed out but I will repeat it, wrestlebacks do not eliminate ticket round matches. They merely cause them to happen at a different point in the tournament. The excitement of those matches are going to be the same because the stakes have not changed.

 

It has also already been stated, but wrestlebacks are not for determining the Champion. They are for ensuring the most deserving wrestlers are the ones moving on & ultimately placing at State.

 

And given the team title is determined from the individual tournament, wrestlebacks can also have a big effect on that outcome. Case in point, Egli drawing Cottey Friday night. Those might be some very crucial team points lost that could be recovered with wrestlebacks.

 

But lastly to address your initial question regarding how anyone can be in favor of wrestlebacks but not class wrestling. This is because wrestlebacks are about ensuring the best 8 wrestlers get rewarded in the end. While class wrestling is about giving the opportunity for success to more kids. There is a distinct difference there. 

 

 

 

This question is not a challenge, it is a question. Do you think the blood round would be as exciting if people got to wrestle back to that point? You do not think it's more exciting when every single wrestler on the mat could simultaneously qualify for state and take a step toward a semi-state championship, OR be completely eliminated from the tournament?

 

If not, then that makes sense, we just disagree on that point.

 

Would you be in favor of a class tournament with half as many qualifiers at each level? Again, this is not a challenge, it is a question to better help me understand where you are coming from. Half as many qualifiers would give opportunity to the exact same number of athletes, but would put wrestlers from large schools and wrestlers from small schools on a more equitable playing field.

 

Realized I should have quoted @Cmoney125 also...this is partially in response to your last post as well.

Edited by Galagore
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Wrestle backs: Yes for any and all tournaments! That way a luck of the draw isn't the determining factor. 

 

Class wrestling for individual tournaments? Yes, but only before the single class individual tournament. I think it could help in seeding the single class tournament. You could use the big holiday time tournaments for the classed individual tournament like the Al Smith.

 

I will beat this dead horse to no avail, but I really would like to see a different classed team state dual tournament system and a single class team state dual tournament come back. I also would like to see a classed individual tournament and a single class individual tournament. More wrestling into March would be really nice. I'm sure it will never happen due to the schedule restraints the IHSAA puts on.

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2 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

Do you think the blood round would be as exciting if people got to wrestle back to that point?

The point is that round would no longer be the blood round. The excitement of advancing verses being eliminated would simply take place in a later round.

 

You do not think it's more exciting when every single wrestler on the mat could simultaneously qualify for state and take a step toward a semi-state championship, OR be completely eliminated from the tournament?

No. We seem to agree to disagree here.

 

 

 

Would you be in favor of a class tournament with half as many qualifiers at each level? Again, this is not a challenge, it is a question to better help me understand where you are coming from. Half as many qualifiers would give opportunity to the exact same number of athletes, but would put wrestlers from large schools and wrestlers from small schools on a more equitable playing field.

I was not arguing for or against class wrestling. I was simply trying to explain to you why someone could be for wrestlebacks & not necessarily for class wrestling. You seem to feel that the two go hand-in-hand & I presented some pretty easy to understand logic of why they are different.

Do you disagree with the logic that wrestlebacks are to ensure the most deserving kids get recognized while class wrestling is about allowing more kids the opportunity at success?

 

Edited by SIACfan
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I’m willing to entertain the argument against classes... but I support a class system because I believe more kids would wrestle if we had classes.

 

However, I believe the lack of wrestle backs is an absolute travesty! It’s ridiculous. We say we like the single class system because of the finals, but we have some of the state’s best at home this weekend cause of draw situations. It’s dumb and it’s lazy on our part. We are undermining years of effort and commitment that a lot of these kids put in... because we don’t want to put the effort in for three weekends. There is no justification for not having wrestle backs.

Edited by KoontzDaddy
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47 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

 

It's not so much that I think class wrestling and wrestle-backs go hand in hand...It's that the part of my brain that says, "Hey, that draw was awful, there should be wrestle-backs for that wrestler." Is the same part of my brain that says, "This wrestler from [fill in the blank small town school] doesn't have the same access to resources as [fill in the blank big town school]. Just curious about what makes other people pull from different parts of the brain. Like I said, trying to understand where people are coming from. Thank you for helping me understand.

 

I do agree that wrestle-backs are about getting the most deserving wrestlers in the most appropriate placings, and I think that is a positive for the sport in our state.

 

I do not think that class wrestling is about getting more kids an opportunity at success. Class wrestling is about having a venue that tries to grow the sport by bridging the gap between schools/communities that can provide sophisticated developmental opportunities and those that don't have the population to support such efforts.

 

If we went two classes, we could only took top two from each level, thus ensuring exactly the same number of kids have an opportunity at success. That would not be my first choice, but it would be a compromise I could begrudgingly live with. Again - it is not my suggestion that we should take half as many and use a two-class system. I am making this statement to illustrate my point of view that class is not simply about adding more wrestlers to the list of "qualifiers" at any given level.

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18 hours ago, base said:

I think we have a great compromise. Team state tournament can help the small schools recruit from the hallways. Individual state tournament is imperfect, but beautiful

I agree.  What makes it less beautiful is that the team state has less than 100% participation and is not sanctioned by the IHSAA.  With IHSSA endorsement we could have regional qualifying tournaments for team state and remove some of the controversy concerning ranking.

 

As far as wrestlebacks are concerned, the whole reason for single class individual system is to have the best wrestlers on the podium. Putting in an extra round to ensure this, especially at semi-state, is not an extravagance but a necessity.

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1 hour ago, Galagore said:

 

It's not so much that I think class wrestling and wrestle-backs go hand in hand

 

Well, you initially asked how someone could think wrestlebacks are good but class wrestling is bad.

 

You then later said that people wanting wrestlebacks but hating class wrestling makes you scratch your head.

 

So it sounded to me that you believe everyone should either want both or neither. And I was attempting to explain why they are different & how a person could be in favor of one but not the other.

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1 hour ago, SIACfan said:

 

Well, you initially asked how someone could think wrestlebacks are good but class wrestling is bad.

 

You then later said that people wanting wrestlebacks but hating class wrestling makes you scratch your head.

 

So it sounded to me that you believe everyone should either want both or neither. And I was attempting to explain why they are different & how a person could be in favor of one but not the other.

 

That's fair. However, thinking that two concepts follow the same logic and thinking two concepts are linked to one another aren't exactly the same thing. I think classing and wrestle-backs, while independent of one another follow the same logical path. You disagree with this, and have justified your position, which I appreciate. Just because I disagree with a person doesn't mean that I don't still want to understand their point of view. In a way, it makes me want to understand their point of view even more.

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1 hour ago, Galagore said:

That's fair. However, thinking that two concepts follow the same logic and thinking two concepts are linked to one another aren't exactly the same thing. I think classing and wrestle-backs, while independent of one another follow the same logical path.

 

But now for the big question.

 

Do you now understand how someone can advocate for wrestlebacks but still not be in favor of class wrestling?

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9 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

But now for the big question.

 

Do you now understand how someone can advocate for wrestlebacks but still not be in favor of class wrestling?

Yes. I apologize if that was unclear. Don't agree, but understand.

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I wonder if Indiana had wrestle backs - would the small school kid who got the best draw possible get knocked out ? Would wrestle backs hurt participation?  For instance say there’s a death draw in the ticket round between 2 great wrestlers - wrestler A loses to wrestler B and now Wrestler C who was let’s say from “Wheeler” won his quarterfinal - loses in semi final - then gets knocked out by Wrestler A on the backside.  I bet this would happen more often than not - it’s hard to get kids in the room when you only have 570 students- if you never get kids going to state - it will be that much harder.  Having those announcements of kids placing in state or going to state is a big deal. 
I am a proponent of wrestle backs btw. I just think there could be a negative effect on smaller programs ? 

 

 

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It sounds like most would prefer wrestle backs all the way through the tournament. As many of the best sixteen to state. The top eight on the podium in order. Clearly the IHSAA only cares about the individual champion. But they should care about placements as accurate as possible. As long as they use an individual tourney to decide the official team champ, they should do their best to include wrestle backs and proper placement. I really don’t see how they can’t see this. 

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9 minutes ago, Observing said:

It sounds like most would prefer wrestle backs all the way through the tournament. As many of the best sixteen to state. The top eight on the podium in order. Clearly the IHSAA only cares about the individual champion. But they should care about placements as accurate as possible. As long as they use an individual tourney to decide the official team champ, they should do their best to include wrestle backs and proper placement. I really don’t see how they can’t see this. 

Yea I've always wondered if this have ever been brought up to the ihsaa. Its said that their only concern is crowning a champion, but has it been brought to their concern that wrestlebacks is part of crown a true team champion in and individual format.... or at least bring back team state to crown team champions 😉

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1 hour ago, Bigyusm said:

I wonder if Indiana had wrestle backs - would the small school kid who got the best draw possible get knocked out ? Would wrestle backs hurt participation?  For instance say there’s a death draw in the ticket round between 2 great wrestlers - wrestler A loses to wrestler B and now Wrestler C who was let’s say from “Wheeler” won his quarterfinal - loses in semi final - then gets knocked out by Wrestler A on the backside.  I bet this would happen more often than not - it’s hard to get kids in the room when you only have 570 students- if you never get kids going to state - it will be that much harder.  Having those announcements of kids placing in state or going to state is a big deal. 
I am a proponent of wrestle backs btw. I just think there could be a negative effect on smaller programs ? 

 

 

This has been something I've wondered but I guess small schools would have to just work harder.

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Excuse me if I repeated anything but didn’t really read much of the responses but one class makes Indiana wrestlers face many more difficulties than wrestlers in any other state have. To compete in Indiana a wrestler has to not only learn how to find their A game no matter how down bad they are but also have the mental game as many of seen before in the tickets, Friday night, and Saturday night lights. No wrestle backs make it way more fierce and meaningful for the people that really want it and have the courage to be the big dawg. Also it’s the most entertaining state series in all of America for this reason. 

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15 hours ago, Bigyusm said:

I wonder if Indiana had wrestle backs - would the small school kid who got the best draw possible get knocked out ? Would wrestle backs hurt participation?  For instance say there’s a death draw in the ticket round between 2 great wrestlers - wrestler A loses to wrestler B and now Wrestler C who was let’s say from “Wheeler” won his quarterfinal - loses in semi final - then gets knocked out by Wrestler A on the backside.  I bet this would happen more often than not...

 

 

 

Do small school kids benefit from fortunate draws more often than they fall victim to death draws?

 

If this is true then you are saying that a majority of small school kids who have advanced to state were just lucky to do so and wrestlebacks would have eliminated them. I don't know but I am not certain I believe this to be the case.

 

The luck of the draw is just that - the luck of the draw. Over time it is going to even itself out.

 

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I will tell you that we had class wrestling in South Carolina. Classes in of themselves do not increase participation and the state championship finals have 4 mats going at once, which blows. Single class makes the state tournament an event for kids, spectators, and college coaches alike. And like I said with wrestlebacks, the NCAA tournament blood round isn't any less exciting due to wrestlebacks. Anyone remember nick Lee losing his first match and placing 3rd? There would be those moments in our tournament and they would be talked about just as much as who wins.

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I would love to see wrestle backs at Semi-state. Make the first round like regionals where it’s 1-and-done, then wrestle back the remaining 8 wrestlers. 
 

I truly love the state championship being single class. In my opinion, classes ruin the true value of winning state individually.

 

Just my opinion. 

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15 hours ago, SIACfan said:

 

Do small school kids benefit from fortunate draws more often than they fall victim to death draws?

 

If this is true then you are saying that a majority of small school kids who have advanced to state were just lucky to do so and wrestlebacks would have eliminated them. I don't know but I am not certain I believe this to be the case.

 

The luck of the draw is just that - the luck of the draw. Over time it is going to even itself out.

 

It's true that if we're in a no-wrestleback vacuum that good draws vs bad draws even out for that system. That's not the issue being mentioned. The question is whether with the elimination of good draws or bad draws in a wrestle back system at semi-state, would we see less small-school kids get through in a no-randomness system? The answer is definitely yes. At New Castle for example, there were 3 firsts (Webster, Allred, Filipovich), 2 seconds, 2 thirds, and 6 fourths from 1A and 2A schools the last two years. Most fourth placers aren't genuinely the 4th best kid and don't have a top 4 kid in their bracket. That's just probability calculations for any 4th place kid, no matter the school size. Some 3rds are in the same situation. So if most of the small school kids that get through finish in placements where they most likely weren't a top 4 kid if there were wrestle backs, it leads us to believe there would be less small-school advancers if that advancement option weren't there.

 

Edited by maligned
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5 hours ago, maligned said:

It's true that if we're in a no-wrestleback vacuum that good draws vs bad draws even out for that system. That's not the issue being mentioned. The question is whether with the elimination of good draws or bad draws in a wrestle back system at semi-state, would we see less small-school kids get through in a no-randomness system? The answer is definitely yes. At New Castle for example, there were 3 firsts (Webster, Allred, Filipovich), 2 seconds, 2 thirds, and 6 fourths from 1A and 2A schools the last two years. Most fourth placers aren't genuinely the 4th best kid and don't have a top 4 kid in their bracket. That's just probability calculations for any 4th place kid, no matter the school size. Some 3rds are in the same situation. So if most of the small school kids that get through finish in placements where they most likely weren't a top 4 kid if there were wrestle backs, it leads us to believe there would be less small-school advancers if that advancement option weren't there.

 

 

I'm not sure I follow your logic. If you are saying that this semi-state had no-randomness in it's draws. If that is the case then all the participants that advanced did so at their correct placement - No?

 

You seem to be implying that there were no good or bad draws, but then conclude that some of the 4th placers weren't truly the 4th best. You can't eliminate randomness when it suits your argument & then reintroduce it later and conclude it proves the answer.

 

The fact of the matter is that some of those 4th place finishers may have been eliminated with wrestlebacks, but those numbers don't take into account the small school kids who got bad draws at that semi-state & may have advanced with wrestlebacks.

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On 2/15/2021 at 7:03 PM, Bigyusm said:

I wonder if Indiana had wrestle backs - would the small school kid who got the best draw possible get knocked out ? Would wrestle backs hurt participation?  For instance say there’s a death draw in the ticket round between 2 great wrestlers - wrestler A loses to wrestler B and now Wrestler C who was let’s say from “Wheeler” won his quarterfinal - loses in semi final - then gets knocked out by Wrestler A on the backside.  I bet this would happen more often than not - it’s hard to get kids in the room when you only have 570 students- if you never get kids going to state - it will be that much harder.  Having those announcements of kids placing in state or going to state is a big deal. 
I am a proponent of wrestle backs btw. I just think there could be a negative effect on smaller programs ? 

 

 

Ok, so you're saying that in some instances, small school kids get the best possible draw and make it through ,and they would lose that opportunity.   But the easy reply to that logic is,  as many times a small school kid gets a good draw, another small school kid gets a terrible draw.   Its the law of random averages of chance of getting a good or bad draw,  and similar to a coin flip.   So thats silly to say for that reason to say it would affect participation.  I think its more devastating when a small school kid gets a bad beat draw, because those opportunities are so few.    

 

On the flip side,   the big schools have a huge advantage in these sudden death  rounds.   1st is experience,  the coaches from the big schools have been there a lot more and they no how to psychologically prepare their kids  and wrestle better in a sudden death situation.  The expectations at big schools are different and they have more of a history of kids getting through.   I commonly see kids wrestle tight and less aggressive or make bad decisions because of the pressure these rounds.  Most of the time its the small school kids that get overwhelmed in the moment.     

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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