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Wrestlebacks and 2-class individual tournamnet - compare and contrast


Galagore

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Can anyone explain to me the logic that leads someone to say that we should not have two (or more, but I like two) classes in our individual tournament because it is exciting and/or the goal is to crown one true champion in each weight (two most used pieces of logic that I have read). Many of the same people say that we should have wrestlebacks because a lot of kids who deserve to go to state don't get to go. Semi-finals, ticket round, and Friday night are my favorite rounds to watch, and it is because of the non-wrestleback, single-class system. The state tournament should not be organized based on what I like to watch, so I am in favor of both wrestlebacks and a two-class system.

 

Truly asking because I am a curious bird who likes to know how people think and not simply trolling UncleJimmy (didn't even tag you so you could ignore this thread if you wish)...How does one come to the conclusion that class is bad and wrestlebacks are good?

Edited by Galagore
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7 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

One word... right or wrong...

 

Tradition

 

So you are opposed to both wrestlebacks and a classed individual tournament? That logic I can wrap my head around.

 

Wanting wrestlebacks and hating class is what makes me scratch my head.

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8 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

One word... right or wrong...

 

Tradition

As stated in another thread, at what point do we trash tradition?

Would losing 25 programs do the trick? How about 50, 100, more?

 

Would participation levels at an all-time low do it?

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10 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

So you are opposed to both wrestlebacks and a classed individual tournament? That logic I can wrap my head around.

 

Wanting wrestlebacks and hating class is what makes me scratch my head.

Not opposed to anything. You asked for a reason. Just trying to provide a reason. Just happy to get Joe fired up today!angry freak out GIF

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2 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Not opposed to anything. You asked for a reason. Just trying to provide a reason. Just happy to get Joe fired up today!angry freak out GIF

I'm not fired up until I press this button! But honestly, would love to know the breaking point of when people would consider class wrestling and how far we have to go for people to realize we need to look at a change.

Ban Button GIF by swerk

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I think there should be true wrestlebacks to third at every qualifying tournament. However, the single class tournament is 1) a gigantic money draw for the IHSAA 2) one of the greatest experiences in high school sports and 3) you know you're the dude when its over. Classed wrestling will destroy the Indiana state tournament. But there should be wreslebacks.

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Obviously I can’t speak for all Indiana wrestling families. However for my son and the majority of his teammates, and academy partners being the true #1 is the ultimate goal. If you have 5-6 state champions at the same weight who is really the champ?? My son and his partners would definitely be higher on the podium if we had class wrestling. But if you ask any of them if they want class wrestling the answer is no. This is just personal opinion but I think parents want class wrestling more than the actual kids wrestling want it. I would love to see some statistics on what the kids putting in the blood, sweat, and tears think??? I see both sides of this debate but I agree with Mattyb. 
the long standing tradition of being single class Indiana and the true State Champ is something all Hoosiers are proud of. My kid and many others might not ever get to the top of the podium but that is life... They don’t always get what they want but they never quit trying to get higher on that podium. I believe if we could get wrestle backs at semi state the debate over class wrestling would simmer down. We definitely have wrestlers getting knocked out of semi state that deserve to be at the state finals.

 

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We could get a lot further in this conversation if we could have an actual real-time conversation with spoken words...I totally understand what many of you are saying about the fairness of wrestlebacks and the true goal of the tournament being who is the best.

 

However, how do wrestlebacks help this goal? If someone is an eventual champ, why would they get knocked out early in the tournament?

 

People also do not want a classed tournament due to all of the excitement around a single-class tournament. Wrestlebacks would take a lot of the edge off of that excitement if we didn't have so much riding on one round, one match.

 

Again - I love the ticket round. Love Friday night. Love the semi-finals. Heck, I even like that stupid spotlight, if I am being totally honest. It just doesn't seem right to defend a system on the grounds that I like watching it.

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Wondering if any of the other states with one class ,have this banter about classing the sport? I like the single class, heck I'm so dated, I still wish Indiana had single class basketball. But thank God we went class system or the decrease in  participation would have cause the sport to die off. Does anyone have accounts on wrestling sites in other one class states Jersey, California are the two i know for sure, maybe Arizona? What are their take on their own system?

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2 hours ago, Galagore said:

We could get a lot further in this conversation if we could have an actual real-time conversation with spoken words...I totally understand what many of you are saying about the fairness of wrestlebacks and the true goal of the tournament being who is the best.

 

However, how do wrestlebacks help this goal? If someone is an eventual champ, why would they get knocked out early in the tournament?

 

People also do not want a classed tournament due to all of the excitement around a single-class tournament. Wrestlebacks would take a lot of the edge off of that excitement if we didn't have so much riding on one round, one match.

 

Again - I love the ticket round. Love Friday night. Love the semi-finals. Heck, I even like that stupid spotlight, if I am being totally honest. It just doesn't seem right to defend a system on the grounds that I like watching it.

The goal is to get as close to the 16 best kids in the bracket at states. And we aren't talking about the evenutal champ losing, we are talking about making it to the show and having a chance. Wrestlebacks help with that goal. Also, there's still a ticket round. It's called the semis and consi semis. It just changes when the ticket round occurs. I think its ridiculous to lose your first match at states and get booted. Some of those kids are players in a wrestleback system. Once again, the goal should be to get the best 8 kids on the podium. But I LOVE the single class system and the environment it creates at the site.

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2 minutes ago, Cmoney125 said:

The goal is to get as close to the 16 best kids in the bracket at states. And we aren't talking about the evenutal champ losing, we are talking about making it to the show and having a chance. Wrestlebacks help with that goal. Also, there's still a ticket round. It's called the semis and consi semis. It just changes when the ticket round occurs. I think its ridiculous to lose your first match at states and get booted. Some of those kids are players in a wrestleback system. Once again, the goal should be to get the best 8 kids on the podium. But I LOVE the single class system and the environment it creates at the site.

States? disgusted steve carell GIF

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2 hours ago, Cmoney125 said:

The goal is to get as close to the 16 best kids in the bracket at states. And we aren't talking about the evenutal champ losing, we are talking about making it to the show and having a chance. Wrestlebacks help with that goal. Also, there's still a ticket round. It's called the semis and consi semis. It just changes when the ticket round occurs. I think its ridiculous to lose your first match at states and get booted. Some of those kids are players in a wrestleback system. Once again, the goal should be to get the best 8 kids on the podium. But I LOVE the single class system and the environment it creates at the site.

 

Do you think our tournament would still be as exciting with wrestlebacks?

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I am in favor of going to 2 or 3 classes.  However, that would only happen if the IHSAA changes their philosophy for all individual sports.  Cross country, track, swimming, tennis, etc. would be included in that decision.  That's just how the IHSAA operates.

 

Consolation matches are unique to wrestling (and possibly tennis).  That is much more feasible to get the IHSAA on board to adopt.  A new approach could be to show the IHSAA the history of the state tournament series when they added more places to advance, instead of just 1st or 2nd.  They added 3rd and 4th place finishers advancing, but did it the simplest way possible.  But that doesn't result in the best 4 all the time.  Show them the changes they made in the past, and use that to present a better way to do it.

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Let’s not forget that as a single class , we have had our basketball state finals held in an NFL stadium. There are a bunch of people that believe that classing basketball didn’t hurt the sport. This may be true but it hasn’t helped it in any way either. 

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7 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

Do you think our tournament would still be as exciting with wrestlebacks?

Does wrestlebacks make the NCAA tournament any less exciting? The blood round at the NCAA tournament is still wildly exciting even with it being in the consolation bracket

Edited by Cmoney125
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12 hours ago, Galagore said:

Why should we have wrestlebacks, then? Isn't it way more exciting to have so much riding on the first two rounds of semi-state? Doesn't that make for a much more fun tournament to watch?

 

Why is the matches that decide who moves on & who goes home more exciting if it happens in the first 2 rounds?

 

It has already been pointed out but I will repeat it, wrestlebacks do not eliminate ticket round matches. They merely cause them to happen at a different point in the tournament. The excitement of those matches are going to be the same because the stakes have not changed.

 

It has also already been stated, but wrestlebacks are not for determining the Champion. They are for ensuring the most deserving wrestlers are the ones moving on & ultimately placing at State.

 

And given the team title is determined from the individual tournament, wrestlebacks can also have a big effect on that outcome. Case in point, Egli drawing Cottey Friday night. Those might be some very crucial team points lost that could be recovered with wrestlebacks.

 

But lastly to address your initial question regarding how anyone can be in favor of wrestlebacks but not class wrestling. This is because wrestlebacks are about ensuring the best 8 wrestlers get rewarded in the end. While class wrestling is about giving the opportunity for success to more kids. There is a distinct difference there. 

 

 

Edited by SIACfan
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12 hours ago, Galagore said:

Why should we have wrestlebacks, then? Isn't it way more exciting to have so much riding on the first two rounds of semi-state? Doesn't that make for a much more fun tournament to watch?

Wrestle-backs are trying to get to the "perfect" orderly finish.  Our current system is definitely imperfect.  Yes, there is a bit of luck involved on what draw you get

 

I am ok without wrestle-backs.  I understand that it would likely reduce the amount of "surprises" in the state placers.  It would also add more time to the tournament (I think 11 more matches per weight class - 31 vs 20?) and even where there are wrestle-backs in place, cross-bracketing still has to occur and there could remain unfortunate draws in that scenario.

 

At this time, I think the IHSAA individual wrestling tournament is one of the great tournaments across the country (for wrestling fans at least) and I would like to maintain the status quo

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