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A nice little back and forth happened on Twitter with one user explaining his disbelief in the Indiana State Finals format as he reacted to state-ranked 1, 2, and 3 all in the same quarter bracket at 182 pounds with no opportunity to wrestleback to place higher. Some Indiana natives defended the system believing it to be the “best,” and while I think Indiana’s system is good for the talent we have, I do think it is flawed and a bad excuse for what it could be. The natives also rejected the idea of classes and multiple state champions, and said we do have depth, and maybe we do, but not nearly the amount we could have if we ensured the best wrestlers advanced to the state finals.

 

In terms of wrestling success, I do believe Indiana is a top fifteen wrestling state in the U.S., but it’s probably not top ten. The states ahead of us:

 

1. Pennsylvania (AA/AAA)

2. Ohio (Division I/II/III)

3. California

4. Illinois (1A/2A/3A)

5. Minnesota (A/AA/AAA)

6. Iowa (1A/2A/3A)

7. New Jersey

8. Oklahoma (3A/4A/5A/6A)

9. Michigan (Division 1/2/3/4)

10. New York (A/AA) 

 

These are based on national rankings, placements, and college success, and you could argue 2-6 and 7-10 are interchangeable on any given day. The Open Mat did a study in 2011 that had Indiana in the top 20 of wrestling states based on NCAA Qualifiers and All-Americans, but had Oregon, Wisconsin, Colorado, Virginia, Washington, Florida, and Missouri ahead of us. I’m not sure how true that is now also taking in the rise of some Texas schools and wrestlers, but I’d like to see where we fall. 
 

My question is: How do we make our state better?

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I think we are at 6.  Many of the top dual teams from elementary to HS are littered with Indiana kids.  If we ever put our best on 1 team it would be scary.  Bryan Bailey was probably the closet to accomplishing that goal.  Check out his facebook, where everyone has been posting their memories with his teams.  He has coached just about every stud in the state.

 

We just need to get rid of travel restriction and other states will start getting exposed to some of our depth.  Our top guys already travel, but getting rid of travel restriction will help some of our other talented wrestlers get exposure that can't or don't travel during the summer.

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10 minutes ago, Sig40 said:

I think we are at 6.  Many of the top dual teams from elementary to HS are littered with Indiana kids.  If we ever put our best on 1 team it would be scary.  Bryan Bailey was probably the closet to accomplishing that goal.  Check out his facebook, where everyone has been posting their memories with his teams.  He has coached just about every stud in the state.

 

We just need to get rid of travel restriction and other states will start getting exposed to some of our depth.  Our top guys already travel, but getting rid of travel restriction will help some of our other talented wrestlers get exposure that can't or don't travel during the summer.

Indiana have 7 of the last 13 Big ten wrestlers of the week Also shows we are def on the come up at d1 level among every other level in college as well!

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The initial reaction confused rankings with earned placement. The rankings are locked at the beginning of sectionals.  The #1 ranked wrestler placed 4th (ok due to injury) and the #2 ranked wrestler placed 2nd at his semistate.

 

If the state finals were seeded, could you feel good about taking a lower ranked kid that had beaten the #2 wrestler the week before, and match him against the #1 or #3 wrestler? Latest head to head is the first seed criteria normally, so although it seems crazy the way it worked out, other wrestlers earned a better first match than the 2.  The real unfortunate circumstance was for Parkinson

 

i do agree that wrestle backs would be nice, though

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8 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

I think @Sig40 makes a great point. Our lack of exposure plays a great role in our national attention. The IHSAA doesn’t allow teams to travel within a 300(?) mile radius, and that limits our attention on the national scene.

The distance we can travel isn’t the major issue with this rule. Heck I can live with it and see a point in having it.  What really holds us back is they other part of the rule.  The fact a school can not face a team/wrestler who has traveled from outside thAt radius to be at the competition.  This rule was likely conceived just thinking about travel for single competition team sports. But the reality of it has a big effect on individual sports where multiple schools attend an event. It practically eliminates Indiana schools from participating in most major individual tournaments.  

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32 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

I think @Sig40 makes a great point. Our lack of exposure plays a great role in our national attention. The IHSAA doesn’t allow teams to travel within a 300(?) mile radius, and that limits our attention on the national scene.

I believe they can’t wrestle a team outside of 300 miles as well. So if you travel 100 miles you can’t wrestle a team from Florida. I think that is a terrible rule.

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Ahhhhhh.... The What “if” travel rule ... they’ll  let you go but you gotta get a waiver . Micic was giving permission to wrestle over seas one year I believe. Yes the travel restriction is dumb but it is what it is in Indiana, Michigan and a few other states . Don’t like it, take your kids to Ohio or Illinois or something to get that exposure if you feel IHSAA is holding them back . what if GIF ^^^^ ... what if I told you can wrestle out of state during IHSAA State ? 

Edited by TeamGarcia
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https://news.theopenmat.com/college-wrestling-news/2019-di-ncaa-qualifiers-w-home-states-and-hometowns/72211

 

I think an objective stat to objectively compare states is the NCAA qualifier by state.   The report doesn't summarize it but you can see what state dominate.    I think its representative because it shows how much high end talent comes out.      The top 3 states are Pennsylvania, New Jersey then Ohio.   These are consistently your top 3 states for qualifiers.      Illinois and Minnesota New York  have a lot of qualifiers.   I wish i had a way to summarize this but Indiana had 8 last year. 

 

  

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I feel there are several separate points being discussed here.

 

First, I believe the Indiana State Tournament is great in that it is intended to find the best wrestler at each weight class rather than to find the best from each different school size. But we have debated that many a time.

 

Secondly, however, this same tournament is flawed in the fact that there are no wrestle-backs. But what are we to do when the people in charge don't truly understand the sport?

 

Lastly, the ranking of states by number of NCAA qualifiers &/or AA's does give a decent indication of which states have the best HS wrestling, but unless this list takes into account population numbers then it's not giving a fair comparison of true quality. For example, California has nearly 6 times the population of Indiana & over 12 times the population of Iowa. I have not looked up the numbers recently, but their number of NCAA AA's has not been 6 & 12 times that of Indiana & Iowa in most years.

 

I definitely believe that Indiana & especially Iowa are 2 strong wrestling states that don't get as much credit given the quality wrestlers produced from smaller populations.

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Due to past experience in Michigan. I can say that INDIANA WRESTLING IS MUCH BETTER THAN MICHIGAN WRESTLING. Weather Michigan has 1 division at state or 4.. Indiana is still better. When I first moved here I constantly argued for Michigan with my team but it is very clear to me now that Indiana Wrestling is VERY UNDERRATED  

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17 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

I feel there are several separate points being discussed here.

 

First, I believe the Indiana State Tournament is great in that it is intended to find the best wrestler at each weight class rather than to find the best from each different school size. But we have debated that many a time.

 

Secondly, however, this same tournament is flawed in the fact that there are no wrestle-backs. But what are we to do when the people in charge don't truly understand the sport?

 

Lastly, the ranking of states by number of NCAA qualifiers &/or AA's does give a decent indication of which states have the best HS wrestling, but unless this list takes into account population numbers then it's not giving a fair comparison of true quality. For example, California has nearly 6 times the population of Indiana & over 12 times the population of Iowa. I have not looked up the numbers recently, but their number of NCAA AA's has not been 6 & 12 times that of Indiana & Iowa in most years.

 

I definitely believe that Indiana & especially Iowa are 2 strong wrestling states that don't get as much credit given the quality wrestlers produced from smaller populations.

If the intent is to find the best wrestler, then who cares about wrestle-backs?

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41 minutes ago, SnatchSingle11 said:

Based off of 2019 qualifiers data from @Wrestling Scholar

 

State Qualifiers
Pennsylvania 53
New Jersey 24
Ohio 24
Illinois 22
Michigan 19
California 18
New York 18
Missouri 14
Colorado 12
Georgia 12
Iowa 12
Minnesota 11
Oklahoma 11
Indiana 10

 

 

The 10 Guys from Indiana are really high mostly higher ranked guys  (Paris, Red, Lee).   But this does show the lack of depth in Indiana and as to why not a top 10 wrestling state.  Ive heard in the past that this stat is schewed to favor or give advantage for states with more D1 wrestling programs like Pennsylvania, Ohio, NY and Michigan.   But check states like Georgia, Colorado and Missouri.  Colorado and Mizzou have 1 program each and Georgia doesn't have at all and they are still beating Indiana.     Its too complicated to blame class wrestling.        

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10 minutes ago, piscis1956 said:

If the ONLY intent is to determine the best wrestler, why advance more than 1 from sectional, regional, and semi-state?

 

Exactly. I am for wrestle-backs. I just think many of the same arguments (both for and against) apply to class wrestling.

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Indiana is the best wrestling state in American History.   Its almost as good as Ohio and Pennsylvania which are the greatest of all time.     There is nothing better than the Indiana State Wrestling tournament,  I went this year and it was just as good as the 38th Grateful Dead concert I went to.    But no state has IndianaMat, its a True Marvel.  Its the best site in Western Civilization.  Its almost a good as the Grateful Dead tribute site.

 

My buddy Dick Vitale, the greatest sports broadcaster loves Indiana Wrestling,  he's a secret fan.   He was telling me about all the Indiana Diaper Dandies,  and we wasn't talking basketball.  He said Wrestling Baby!!!!!!

Edited by Wrestling Bill Walton
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13 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Indiana is the best wrestling state in American History.   Its almost as good as Ohio and Pennsylvania which are the greatest of all time.     There is nothing better than the Indiana State Wrestling tournament,  I went this year and it was just as good as the 38th Grateful Dead concert I went to.    But no state has IndianaMat, its a True Marvel.  Its the best site in Western Civilization.  Its almost a good as the Grateful Dead tribute site.

 

My buddy Dick Vitale, the greatest sports broadcaster loves Indiana Wrestling,  he's a secret fan.   He was telling me about all the Indiana Diaper Dandies,  and we wasn't talking basketball.  He said Wrestling Baby!!!!!!

I like this guy. I want to drink what he's drinkin!

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13 hours ago, blueandgold said:

I think @Sig40 makes a great point. Our lack of exposure plays a great role in our national attention. The IHSAA doesn’t allow teams to travel within a 300(?) mile radius, and that limits our attention on the national scene.

Having sat in on the meetings where this travel rule was discussed, I at least was interested to hear the IHSAA's side of it.

 

They worry about lifting a travel rule and it helping the rich get richer. Say little Edgewood couldn't afford monetarily to send a team past 300 miles (nor should they) and big a wealthier school could. Now say that Edgewood has some super stud that was open to considering other schools. Now they see a schedule that offers going to Las Vegas for a tournament and my kid transfers schools. 

 

Transferring seems out of control these days anyways, but the point is understood. Wrestling is less of a big deal than basketball by far. So they are really concerned about basketball just turning into an AAU circuit. 

 

Anyways, maybe a travel rule isn't the answer, and it's not my decision. But hearing that offered me perspective I had not thought of before.

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2 hours ago, NW Indiana Wrestling Fan said:

Due to past experience in Michigan. I can say that INDIANA WRESTLING IS MUCH BETTER THAN MICHIGAN WRESTLING. Weather Michigan has 1 division at state or 4.. Indiana is still better. When I first moved here I constantly argued for Michigan with my team but it is very clear to me now that Indiana Wrestling is VERY UNDERRATED  

 

I went the other way.  I moved from IN to MI.  Here's how I view it.

 

If you look at the whole state, Michigan has more depth.  In other words, if you had no classes in MI and took the top 10 guys from IN and the top 10 guys from MI, Michigan's #10 is going to be better than Indiana's #10 most of the time.  There are twice as many schools in MI compared to IN.  Its a population thing.  

 

Until recently, I would have said the #1 guy in MI vs the #1 guy in IN dual for each weight would also favor MI if it were a dual of 14 weights.  I think IN has closed the gap there now but for all the great studs in IN, MI is just as good.  

 

The only way I would agree that IN wrestling is MUCH BETTER than MI is if you compared IN's 1 champ to some of the smaller division champs in MI.  That would be like the comparison of how 1A kids did against 4A kids in IN.

 

I would put Detroit Catholic Central or Davison against any team in IN and feel very good about that chances there.  I am not sure how many teams in IN have multiple Fargo All Americans every year but DCC can do that as well as a few others.

 

Indiana's 1 champ vs Michigan's 1 champ would be a great match.  The #1s in IN are great.  The #1s in MI are great.  I don't really think there is much difference there.  MI also has the weird travel rules that hurt exposure but man some of the kids are still super good.

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32 minutes ago, ehscoach said:

Having sat in on the meetings where this travel rule was discussed, I at least was interested to hear the IHSAA's side of it.

 

They worry about lifting a travel rule and it helping the rich get richer. Say little Edgewood couldn't afford monetarily to send a team past 300 miles (nor should they) and big a wealthier school could. Now say that Edgewood has some super stud that was open to considering other schools. Now they see a schedule that offers going to Las Vegas for a tournament and my kid transfers schools. 

 

Transferring seems out of control these days anyways, but the point is understood. Wrestling is less of a big deal than basketball by far. So they are really concerned about basketball just turning into an AAU circuit. 

 

Anyways, maybe a travel rule isn't the answer, and it's not my decision. But hearing that offered me perspective I had not thought of before.

I complete agree with that reasoning for our travel restrictions.  The top teams would go to the big national tournaments and draw in more of our studs from nearby communities.  The rich would get richer.

 

However, I have a big problem with the IHSAA restricting the travel of schools outside of Indiana.  Why do they get to dictate travel for teams from other states?  If a really good team from Iowa wants to spend the time and money to compete at the Mater Dei Classic, and their school and state association allow it, then who is that hurting from Indiana?

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26 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

I complete agree with that reasoning for our travel restrictions.  The top teams would go to the big national tournaments and draw in more of our studs from nearby communities.  The rich would get richer.

 

However, I have a big problem with the IHSAA restricting the travel of schools outside of Indiana.  Why do they get to dictate travel for teams from other states?  If a really good team from Iowa wants to spend the time and money to compete at the Mater Dei Classic, and their school and state association allow it, then who is that hurting from Indiana?

So, this was a discussion after an athletic director proposed it as a rule change. I was just part of the explanations and not the proposal.

 

But if I remember the explanation correctly, the commish said it was not proposed correctly. If the proposal had said something to the sorts of competing against teams outside of the travel restriction, as long as they came to us or a neutral place within our travel limits, that most likely would have passed. But because the proposal was about lifting travel restrictions, they would not go with it and to try again the next proposal series.

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25 minutes ago, ehscoach said:

So, this was a discussion after an athletic director proposed it as a rule change. I was just part of the explanations and not the proposal.

 

But if I remember the explanation correctly, the commish said it was not proposed correctly. If the proposal had said something to the sorts of competing against teams outside of the travel restriction, as long as they came to us or a neutral place within our travel limits, that most likely would have passed. But because the proposal was about lifting travel restrictions, they would not go with it and to try again the next proposal series.

That's awesome!

 

How many years ago was this proposed?  I'm assuming this is a bylaw change, so when is the next chance for an AD to propose this?

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What would help wrestling, if the IHSAA let one of the Indiana nationally ranked basketball teams to compete in a big national tournament with teams from California or Florida.   Then we could ride there coattails, and get some teams in the Ironman,  then get some attention.   Im glad to see there is some possible movement on competing against national teams as long as Indiana doesn't travel under 300.

 

EHS Coach,  that's a good perspective on why the IHSAA doesn't allow the travel.  That would be a huge carrot to a young athlete to have the opportunity and fun to travel to a national tournament.   I could see kids transferring for any sport (basketball,  football, wreslting or even Softball or track).

 

 

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