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State tournament class statistics to not necessarily incite class wrestling discussion


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24 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

No Kansas has 4 classes but less than half the population of Indiana. Thus it is the equivalent of Indiana going to 8 classes.

So you're talking about the watered down ratio.   Well Kansas isn't the worst with 1 class per 728K population

 

Wyoming has 3 classes per 573K population or 1 class per 191K.  That's equivalent to 34 classes in Indiana.

Montana has 3 classes  per  1Mmm or  1 per 334K or equivalent to 20 classes in Indiana.

Oklahoma has 4  per 3.94 Million or 1 per 985K.

Nebraska has 4 per 1.91Mmm or 1 per 475k or  or equivalent to 14 classes in Indiana.

Oregon has 5 classes in about 4 million population.

 

Georgia is class crazy with most at 7 classes.  There population is 10 Million or 1 class per 1.4 million or 5 classes in Indiana.

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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In all fairness....I think Silas has solidified himself as a pretty special talent regardless of school size.  So with all do respect, I genuinely feel to draw a question about why aren’t more 1A or 2

This whole thread and group of replies has became ridiculous.  I feel that there's a lot of common sense left out of many statements made in this thread.   We just had a kid become a two tim

Let me just throw in here...   TEAM class wrestling = YES INDIVIDUAL class wrestling = NO   How in the wide world of sports did Silas Allred possibly manage to compete at the

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3 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 

Wyoming has 3 classes per 573K population or 1 class per 191K.  That's equivalent to 34 classes in Indiana.

Montana has 3 classes  per  1Mmm or  1 per 334K or equivalent to 20 classes in Indiana.

 

 

 

That is just crazy

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The big thing a I noticed in the data is that the Fort Wayne Semi State seems to have more small school than big schools. I could be wrong but if I had to guess if there  was data for the state qualifiers by semi-state it would show that a good chunk of the small school state qualifiers would come from one semi-state which in my opinion skews the data that said "the school sizes are getting the right amount of state qualifiers." Just saying.

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11 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

That is just crazy.  Wyoming has 3 classes per 573K population or 1 class per 191K.  That's equivalent to 34 classes in Indiana

Wyoming is not called the Equality State for nothing.   Everybody gets a chance to place there.

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2 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

I have a question, what is the enrollment number you are using to distinguish 1A from 2A?

I am splitting the classes into two equal halves of 156 teams.....the cut-off is Corydown Central and Charlestown at 691 students. Bellmont would be the smallest big school at 692 students.

 

The 4 class system is how the IHSWCA is classifying the teams for the 2021 season with the teams that did not have 7 wrestlers at sectional figured in.

1A- 0-513
2A- 520-1058
3A- 1082-1999

4A- 2000+ with Mater Dei and Cathedral

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So I noticed there's more seem to support the idea of team state being classed but not individual. The common reasoning is that the small school teams are at a disadvantage but the individuals are not. My questions for those that have this way of thinking is what are the reasonings the small school teams are at a disadvantage?

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6 minutes ago, bbulldog152 said:

So I noticed there's more seem to support the idea of team state being classed but not individual. The common reasoning is that the small school teams are at a disadvantage but the individuals are not. My questions for those that have this way of thinking is what are the reasonings the small school teams are at a disadvantage?

This is core DNA  thought in Indiana.   In all  Individual sports, the competitor is equal and has no disadvantage or advantage dependent of what school you go to.   You have the same chance to win no matter if you go to Carmel or if you go to Frontier high school.

This goes the same for all Individual sports: Tennis, Track, Swimming, Cross Country, Gymnastics, Golf. 

 

On the flip,  in team sports the thought is the more participants you have that go out for football,  the more likely you're team will be equivalently better.    This is very much true, and is proven by the data shown. 

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6 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

This is core DNA  thought in Indiana.   In all  Individual sports, the competitor is equal and has no disadvantage or advantage dependent of what school you go to.   You have the same chance to win no matter if you go to Carmel or if you go to Frontier high school.

This goes the same for all Individual sports: Tennis, Track, Swimming, Cross Country, Gymnastics, Golf. 

I understand this is the standard way of thinking in Indiana. I'd just like to know the reasoning to class team.

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

That is way too many, most states would be fine with two or three classes. 

 

One thing the IHSAA does well is that they hold the state championships in great facilities. I could not imagine having a state finals at Carroll or Southport or New Castle. And yes, we could still hold state at Bankers Life if we went to multiple classes.

Most of these states don't think there's too many.   But Ill admit they don't have a board like IndianaMat to keep to give them relative info to base a good opinion on.

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Do the small school class-wrestling fanbase even tell their kids to participate in ISWA tournaments, or just sit them out since the deck is stacked against them? It really paints a glum scenario to think that you'll never be able to compete with the other guys because of your environment

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10 minutes ago, base said:

Do the small school class-wrestling fanbase even tell their kids to participate in ISWA tournaments, or just sit them out since the deck is stacked against them? It really paints a glum scenario to think that you'll never be able to compete with the other guys because of your environment

Go run the numbers on participants at ISWA state based on school size. I'd venture to guess that you get way more big school kids.

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I am splitting the classes into two equal halves of 156 teams.....the cut-off is Corydown Central and Charlestown at 691 students. Bellmont would be the smallest big school at 692 students.

 

The 4 class system is how the IHSWCA is classifying the teams for the 2021 season with the teams that did not have 7 wrestlers at sectional figured in.

1A- 0-513
2A- 520-1058
3A- 1082-1999

4A- 2000+ with Mater Dei and Cathedral

 

So then are your numbers not completely accurate?

 

Just because MD chooses to participate in the large school class in wrestling doesn't mean you should put their wrestlers in the large school class when what we are trying to establish how the percentages of qualifiers vs enrollment fall out. This is another example of skewing the numbers to fit your narrative.

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16 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Go run the numbers on participants at ISWA state based on school size. I'd venture to guess that you get way more big school kids.

 

So then you add in small-school state, and get 14 more winners next year and a bunch more placers. Now you want to convince your wrestlers to do more offseason wrestling.  But wait - offseason is not classed!! So forget it, right? You can't compete against those guys it's not equitable.

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Just now, SIACfan said:

 

So then are your numbers not completely accurate?

 

Just because MD chooses to participate in the large school class in wrestling doesn't mean you should put their wrestlers in the large school class when what we are trying to establish how the percentages of qualifiers vs enrollment fall out. This is another example of skewing the numbers to fit your narrative.

Mater Dei is a statistical outlier. 

 

Here are the past 20 years of qualifiers in 1A
 

  Qualifiers Placers Champions
MDi 138 84 17
4--1A 515 173 14
2-- 1A 963 371 29

 

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3 hours ago, SIACfan said:

 

Stay about the same.

 

Yes, there would be the occasional kid who can't break into the varsity lineup at a big school who might actually be good enough to qualify for state. But that would be the extreme exception not the rule. And who says that this kid would knock a small school kid from qualifying? Maybe he would simply knock a kid from a different large school out.

 

I think you are confusing small school kids who are multiyear letterman at their small school but wouldn't be able to break into a large school varsity lineup with the small school state qualifiers. Those kids would be state qualifiers no matter what school they attended.

 

This here is where we disagree. I think if even the top 20 teams were allowed to entries per weight at sectional, that would dramatically reduce the number of small-school qualifiers.

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53 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

So then are your numbers not completely accurate?

 

Just because MD chooses to participate in the large school class in wrestling doesn't mean you should put their wrestlers in the large school class when what we are trying to establish how the percentages of qualifiers vs enrollment fall out. This is another example of skewing the numbers to fit your narrative.

Adding Mater Dei to 1A does the following since I'm sure it will be hard to prove in your mind they are a statistical outlier

Champions
2016-2020- +1.0 average
2011-2020- +0.6 average
Placers

2016-2020- +3.8 average
2011-2020- +3.8 average
Qualifiers
2016-2020- +7.0 champions average
2011-2020- +6.6 champions average

 

Here is the data with Cathedral and Mater Dei marked as 3A and 1A respectively. Feel free to tinker with it. This is qualifier, placer, and champion data from 2011-2020.

Enrollment Classification 2020 - Copy.xlsx

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 I would bet most coaches encourage kids to wrestle in iswa events. The two schools I have been associated with for the last 36 years both small schools. They have family's  that can't afford all the expenses that go along with that in today's time. 20 years ago when you could drive 30-40 minutes to get 4 or 5 matches. Now it's 3 or 4 total. Our Jr High will wrestle 15 matches by the end of next Friday. A Sunday tournament is just not feasible right now. 

 

Youth kids need solid practice time before they head out to a tournament. It would be nice to have some beginners tournaments up this way. Just not enough kids to make it work. 

 MD has tradition running back many years as most should know. 

 

It takes more than a couple of kids from A small school to make it work. I had two boys a few years ago who traveled alot to wrestle. Multiple Iswa titles between them. Both made the state tournament one getting a medal. In the process there was several others that followed them and had great success. I was a 3 time qualifier and another was 2 time medal winner

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4 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

This here is where we disagree. I think if even the top 20 teams were allowed to entries per weight at sectional, that would dramatically reduce the number of small-school qualifiers.

 

We can agree to disagree then, but I don't think you are giving these small school State qualifiers enough credit.

 

Sure it would effect the number of small school regional qualifiers & possibly reduce the number of small school SS qualifiers. But the ones that are skilled enough to be State qualifiers I don't believe would be much effected by large school JV wrestlers.

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Also difficult when the club coach is the varsity head coach and one of two middle school coaches. Resources are the issue, and they become more likely to be the issue the smaller the school is. Doesn't mean that big schools are never short on resources, doesn't mean small schools are never flush with resources. Just means that as the school gets smaller, the likelihood that resources also gets smaller grows.

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5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Adding Mater Dei to 1A does the following since I'm sure it will be hard to prove in your mind they are a statistical outlier

Champions
2016-2020- +1.0 average
2011-2020- +0.6 average
Placers

2016-2020- +3.8 average
2011-2020- +3.8 average
Qualifiers
2016-2020- +7.0 champions average
2011-2020- +6.6 champions average

 

Here is the data with Cathedral and Mater Dei marked as 3A and 1A respectively. Feel free to tinker with it. This is qualifier, placer, and champion data from 2011-2020.

Enrollment Classification 2020 - Copy.xlsx 581.06 kB · 1 download

 

I completely agree they are outliers, but that doesn't mean you throw them out or worse throw them into the other category. If we are trying to get an unbiased look at the qualifier% vs enrollment% then they must be listed in the proper enrollment category.

 

This is another example of you skewing the facts to better support your narrative.

 

There are large school outliers also, are you misappropriating their numbers?

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