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State tournament class statistics to not necessarily incite class wrestling discussion


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42 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

I’d would say it’s my 1,000 funniest post of my 1,348 post . Only 348 of them I was so ..... serious. You got a lot of work ahead of you to even get on my level . 
There is Notorious and @UncleJimmy, I’m #1 of course and he’s a distance #2 

 

 

Nothing  is more funnier than @Team Garcia posts.  The funniest poster of all time.    The only thing funnier ive ever seen was the Eddie Murphy Delirius concert I got complimentary tickets back in 1983.   Funniest concert ever in history  of  stand  up comedians.

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In all fairness....I think Silas has solidified himself as a pretty special talent regardless of school size.  So with all do respect, I genuinely feel to draw a question about why aren’t more 1A or 2

This whole thread and group of replies has became ridiculous.  I feel that there's a lot of common sense left out of many statements made in this thread.   We just had a kid become a two tim

Let me just throw in here...   TEAM class wrestling = YES INDIVIDUAL class wrestling = NO   How in the wide world of sports did Silas Allred possibly manage to compete at the

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3 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Nothing  is more funnier than @Team Garcia posts.  The funniest poster of all time.    The only thing funnier ive ever seen was the Eddie Murphy Delirius concert I got complimentary tickets back in 1983.   Funniest concert ever in history  of  stand  up comedians.

very funny.jpg

I’m just here waiting calmly on my buddy @MikeTython take on Class Wrestling in Indiana. I’ll probably give him two thumbs up . joaquin phoenix thumbs up GIF

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9 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

I’m just here waiting calmly on my buddy @MikeTython take on Class Wrestling in Indiana. I’ll probably give him two thumbs up . joaquin phoenix thumbs up GIF

Again,  the comeback was electrifying.  @ Team Garcia shooting quasars to the top of the mountain of the promised land of meme usage.  The Michelango of IndianaMat with his Beethovenesque symphony of funniess. Yesss

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36 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Again,  the comeback was electrifying.  @ Team Garcia shooting quasars to the top of the mountain of the promised land of meme usage.  The Michelango of IndianaMat with his Beethovenesque symphony of funniess. Yesss

@Wrestling Bill Walton I’m going to walk you through the process (picture me holding Bill foot long appendages called finger you have for rebounds) of tagging on Indianamat. Come with me Bill . 😊
 

Step 1. Find the @   button 
Step 2. Then proceed to type in the poster name like you see on the screen . Joe has graciously hooked us up with a scroll of posters that’s similar to whoever poster you like . I use mine as example for you . 
 

           @TeamGarcia it’s genius ! 
 

Notorious has giving back to the Indianamat Community on this day . stone cold steve austin beer GIF 
cheers ! 
 

 

Back to the topic at hand

 

Please Note : This is TeamGarcia opinion only

I don’t care for Class Wrestling nor does anybody in #TheCounty . Vote No 

 

Paid for by (1) my Tens of Thousands Bananas I have . (1) 🍌 

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2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I think the growth or lack of growth at schools is different from school to school. I know of some that have grown(Carroll, Garrett) and some that have less kids than in 2000(Dekalb, Bellmont).

 

This probably isn't exactly the best post to quote, but here is the fundamental difference between the two thought processes on this thread.

 

People are in one of the two categories

1. In a single class system the varsity entries should not affected by school size and thus all should have an equal representation at the state finals.
These people see the statistics and say that we need class wrestling.

 

2. In a single class system while "equal" the bigger schools should be having more success because they have more kids to choose from(amongst other advantages).
These people see the statistics and say we do not need class wrestling.

 

I fall into #1 and feel if you are in group #2 you are advocating for a classed environment due to the fact that everyone SHOULD be equal when they step on the mat. However, if you are a varsity athlete at a 4A school you are basically 10X more likely to qualify for state than a varsity athlete at a 1A school.


I don’t think varsity athletes are equal; I think athletes are equal. You bring good points here. The philosophies we have are different, but I think we are approaching the situation honestly. 

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2 hours ago, RaiderColfax said:

Would it benefit these smaller school wrestlers for more scholarships offers if Indiana were to have a 2 class system? 
 

I agree I think saying ‘Indiana state champ’ sounds great, but if it’s going to benefit a kids chances of getting a scholarship I’m for it. 

Kids having success earlier will equate to them getting more looks from colleges. If you are a one-time placer, even a champ, as a senior your opportunities are limited because most schools(D1, D2, and even NAIA) are already looking at current juniors. It is crucial for a kid to have success(meaning state qualifier or medal) earlier especially when competing against classed states like Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois. 

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8 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Kids having success earlier will equate to them getting more looks from colleges. If you are a one-time placer, even a champ, as a senior your opportunities are limited because most schools(D1, D2, and even NAIA) are already looking at current juniors. It is crucial for a kid to have success(meaning state qualifier or medal) earlier especially when competing against classed states like Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois. 

I’m just wondering though, would a 2nd class be helpful to these smaller schools for that reason? 

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6 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

I’m just here waiting calmly on my buddy @MikeTython take on Class Wrestling in Indiana. I’ll probably give him two thumbs up . joaquin phoenix thumbs up GIF

i'm all for clath sythem in regards to da team serieth...no more den 2 if we talking individualth.  I don't no much about scolarships as sumone mentioned above, but dat souns like a great ting for kids

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13 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Most of the posters in favor of class wrestling would be in favor of having only two classes, not 4, 6 or 20 as some people tend to envision.

 

The thing is when you ask a kid from a classed state they tell you they placed 3rd or were the champion. They don't mention anything about what class it was. Just as if you ask a kid from Western Boone about their football team and they say they were state champions, not "2A" state champions. 

I agree with Jack Jones, football state champs tend to tell people they won the 2-A state championship or what ever class they were in. I've talked to guys from other states that won state championships in wrestling they tell me I won the small school division or I won the AA division and so on. I feel they don't want to lead anyone on and make them think they won the 5-A championship or whatever the largest division is.

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7 hours ago, RaiderColfax said:

I’m just wondering though, would a 2nd class be helpful to these smaller schools for that reason? 

I can tell you when my son was getting recruited as a Junior who had been to Semi State - one of the schools we reached out to literally told me - he doesn’t have the accolades for me to give him a ton of money. In that same breath he said your son just worked a multi time placer from here , but without those accolades it’s a hard sell.  He elaborated further , “well when I’m recruiting other kids - I can’t say hey I just signed a semi state kid from Indiana! “  This was a D2 school in North Carolina - for a kid like mine those accolades are huge.  He didn’t do many  off season tournaments as he played 2 other sports for most of High School. 
Our School has 520 kids -

That being said for Colleges that recruit Indiana , they typically know getting to Semi State from some regionals is like getting to state in other states. My son wanted to go somewhere warm and those schools we spoke too didn’t really recruit Indiana and didn’t understand our system.  So those accolades were huge.  

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43 minutes ago, Bigyusm said:

I can tell you when my son was getting recruited as a Junior who had been to Semi State - one of the schools we reached out to literally told me - he doesn’t have the accolades for me to give him a ton of money. In that same breath he said your son just worked a multi time placer from here , but without those accolades it’s a hard sell.  He elaborated further , “well when I’m recruiting other kids - I can’t say hey I just signed a semi state kid from Indiana! “  This was a D2 school in North Carolina - for a kid like mine those accolades are huge.  He didn’t do many  off season tournaments as he played 2 other sports for most of High School. 
Our School has 520 kids -

That being said for Colleges that recruit Indiana , they typically know getting to Semi State from some regionals is like getting to state in other states. My son wanted to go somewhere warm and those schools we spoke too didn’t really recruit Indiana and didn’t understand our system.  So those accolades were huge.  

Appreciate your perspective and real world example

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8 hours ago, MikeTython said:

i'm all for clath sythem in regards to da team serieth...no more den 2 if we talking individualth.  I don't no much about scolarships as sumone mentioned above, but dat souns like a great ting for kids

will ferrell yes GIF 
finally a post I believe is the truth for the kids . If anybody disagrees with Mr. Thython .... jabs and uppercuts are coming . 
 

Thanks Mike 

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14 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

@Wrestling Bill Walton I’m going to walk you through the process (picture me holding Bill foot long appendages called finger you have for rebounds) of tagging on Indianamat. Come with me Bill . 😊
 

Step 1. Find the @   button 
Step 2. Then proceed to type in the poster name like you see on the screen . Joe has graciously hooked us up with a scroll of posters that’s similar to whoever poster you like . I use mine as example for you . 
 

           @TeamGarcia it’s genius ! 
 

Notorious has giving back to the Indianamat Community on this day . stone cold steve austin beer GIF 
cheers ! 
 

 

Back to the topic at hand

 

Please Note : This is TeamGarcia opinion only

I don’t care for Class Wrestling nor does anybody in #TheCounty . Vote No 

 

Paid for by (1) my Tens of Thousands Bananas I have . (1) 🍌 

@TeamGarciaYou're clear and concise instructions were tremendously successful.  Bill Wallton is a busy man and is grateful for your time savers. You'd figure all these years of announcing,  I would be a technological wiz.  But @TeamGarcia is the tech Juggernaut of Indianamat.  

 

Speaking of Grateful, that reminds me of the 33rd Grateful Dead Concert I went to.  The best concert ever.  Jerry Garcia recognized me in the stands, and invited me back during the half time show.    We were chilling and he gave me clear and concise directions on rolling a >>>>>:ph34r:, then I said you're the best Garcia ever.   Wayyyyyyyyy, speaking of Awsome Garcia's is @Jerry Garcia related to @TeamGarcia.  Holy Moly,  This is like when Jim Morrison met Van Morrison and said we have be related.  Having the greatest rock star ever  as an uncle, that's better than announcing the NBA All Star game.

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9 hours ago, MikeTython said:

i'm all for clath sythem in regards to da team serieth...no more den 2 if we talking individualth.  I don't no much about scolarships as sumone mentioned above, but dat souns like a great ting for kids

I really love the edifying wisdom and thoughtful contributions from Iron Mike Tython.   He did things in the ring better than anybody from any planet.  No one was better.  He was almost as in the same league  as Ali and Joe Louis. 

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11 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

@TeamGarciaYou're clear and concise instructions were tremendously successful.  Bill Wallton is a busy man and is grateful for your time savers. You'd figure all these years of announcing,  I would be a technological wiz.  But @TeamGarcia is the tech Juggernaut of Indianamat.  

 

Speaking of Grateful, that reminds me of the 33rd Grateful Dead Concert I went to.  The best concert ever.  Jerry Garcia recognized me in the stands, and invited me back during the half time show.    We were chilling and he gave me clear and concise directions on rolling a >>>>>:ph34r:, then I said you're the best Garcia ever.   Wayyyyyyyyy, speaking of Awsome Garcia's is @Jerry Garcia related to @TeamGarcia.  Holy Moly,  This is like when Jim Morrison met Van Morrison and said we have be related.  Having the greatest rock star ever  as an uncle, that's better than announcing the NBA All Star game.

Yes ... Jerry was my 2nd cousin. R.I.P. Fam ! 

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7 minutes ago, Jack Jones said:

Possibly so.

It also lets those small school kids get more matches in. I get the level of competition for some of these schools is greatly lowered than those of the bigger schools. But it’s high school, I’m all for giving every opportunity to kids to go further in wrestling and education.

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All right, I just can't help myself so here is my 2 cents.

 

I enjoy the single class wrestling tournament we have because it crowns 1 true champion in each weight class. But admittedly, my view is from a fan standpoint. And when the success numbers are compared to population numbers, the results are pretty close to where they should be expected. Furthermore since this is ultimately an individual tournament, I don't feel that the single class tournament is grossly unfair. But it does suck that this tournament is the only way we have for determining the team state championship.

 

But if we were to return to having a true team state tournament, then a classed system would make sense & would be the only fair system. It would be totally unfair to expect the smallest schools to have to compete with the largest schools in the state.

 

With all that said, possibly the best argument for class wrestling is one that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread (or I missed it).

And that is, what is High School sports all about? Well, it should be about the kids not the schools. I don't know what the numbers are, but I do know that the biggest majority of HS athletes' careers end when they graduate HS. And given this knowledge, shouldn't a system which gives the most kids the chance to experience success & the excitement of qualifying for SS &/or state be the correct answer.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

All right, I just can't help myself so here is my 2 cents.

 

I enjoy the single class wrestling tournament we have because it crowns 1 true champion in each weight class. But admittedly, my view is from a fan standpoint. And when the success numbers are compared to population numbers, the results are pretty close to where they should be expected. Furthermore since this is ultimately an individual tournament, I don't feel that the single class tournament is grossly unfair. But it does suck that this tournament is the only way we have for determining the team state championship.

 

But if we were to return to having a true team state tournament, then a classed system would make sense & would be the only fair system. It would be totally unfair to expect the smallest schools to have to compete with the largest schools in the state.

 

With all that said, possibly the best argument for class wrestling is one that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread (or I missed it).

And that is, what is High School sports all about? Well, it should be about the kids not the schools. I don't know what the numbers are, but I do know that the biggest majority of HS athletes' careers end when they graduate HS. And given this knowledge, shouldn't a system which gives the most kids the chance to experience success & the excitement of qualifying for SS &/or state be the correct answer.

 

 

I was right there with you until that last part. I don't think you were saying give a trophy to everyone, but it could be interpreted that way. 

 

I agree with your initial take on the individual tournent not needing to be classed, but that it makes sense on the team side. I say that as someone who is currently a fan, but a long time ago was a competitor in the system, and hopefully one day will have a couple of kids competing in it. 

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20 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

I was right there with you until that last part. I don't think you were saying give a trophy to everyone, but it could be interpreted that way. 

 

I agree with your initial take on the individual tournent not needing to be classed, but that it makes sense on the team side. I say that as someone who is currently a fan, but a long time ago was a competitor in the system, and hopefully one day will have a couple of kids competing in it. 

 

You are correct that I wasn't saying give a trophy to everyone. I think that participation awards should end somewhere between 8-10 years old. But going to a 2-class system would hardly be handing out participation trophies. It would still require a high level of skill & dedication to achieve a high level of success.

 

And to be honest, I really am not in favor of a classed system for our individual tournament. I was simply pointing out what should be the predominant argument for those who want it. I am always surprised when I see the single vs class system debate & rarely if ever see this come up.

 

From your last comment it appears you have yet to have kids or your kids have not yet reached the age to be competitive athletes. I'll let you in on a parental secret - once you do, you'll understand what I meant when I said that the most important thing about HS sports is the kids.

 

 

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On 2/26/2020 at 11:43 AM, Wrestling Scholar said:

Back in my home state "Kansas"... the state tournament there is broken into 4 classes...

 

 

Now this is an example of participation trophy distribution.

 

Kansas has a population of 2.9 Mil which is less than half of Indiana (6.7 Mil). Thus it is the equivalent of Indiana going to 8 classes.

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43 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Now this is an example of participation trophy distribution.

 

Kansas has a population of 2.9 Mil which is less than half of Indiana (6.7 Mil). Thus it is the equivalent of Indiana going to 8 classes.

Most states would be fine with 2 or 3 classes and there are some that are just dumb like Georgia and Virginia. It also comes down to the size discrepancy between the schools within the state. 

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2 hours ago, SIACfan said:

And when the success numbers are compared to population numbers, the results are pretty close to where they should be expected. Furthermore since this is ultimately an individual tournament, I don't feel that the single class tournament is grossly unfair.

What you are saying is exactly a statement for class wrestling. Within a one class system is it believed that everyone that is a varsity athlete has an equal shot at a state title. It shouldn't matter that the school they come from is bigger or smaller. The big schools get 14 sectional entries and the small schools get 14 also. The statistics you allude to would be fine if bigger schools were allowed more state entries. 

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38 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

What you are saying is exactly a statement for class wrestling. Within a one class system is it believed that everyone that is a varsity athlete has an equal shot at a state title. It shouldn't matter that the school they come from is bigger or smaller. The big schools get 14 sectional entries and the small schools get 14 also. The statistics you allude to would be fine if bigger schools were allowed more state entries. 

 

No that is what you are inferring, which is severely flawed. To say that the 14 starters from a 1A school is equivalent to the 14 starters at a 4A school is grossly wrong. There are many wrestlers that are multi-year letterman at smaller schools that would have an extremely difficult time ever earning a varsity letter in wrestling at a larger school. If your logic is used, then a class system for a team tournament is not needed.

 

No, what I am saying is that the enrollment numbers should be fairly indicative of the number of SQ'ers that should be seen from the different size schools. To only look at the raw numbers without considering the disparity in enrollment numbers is massively flawed.

 

State Qualifier's       Enrollment

4A - 41.1%                32.09%

3A - 25.4%                29.81%

2A - 23.7%                24.81%

1A - 9.8%                  13.12%

 

So as has already been stated, the 4A schools are out doing the enrollment numbers, but it is not as drastic as many believe.

Edited by SIACfan
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33 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

No that is what you are inferring, which is severely flawed. To say that the 14 starters from a 1A school is equivalent to the 14 starters at a 4A school is grossly wrong. There are many wrestlers that are multi-year letterman at smaller schools that would have an extremely difficult time ever earning a varsity letter in wrestling at a larger school. If your logic is used, then a class system for a team tournament is not needed.

 

No, what I am saying is that the enrollment numbers should be fairly indicative of the number of SQ'ers that should be seen from the different size schools. To only look at the raw numbers without considering the disparity in enrollment numbers is massively flawed.

 

State Qualifier's       Enrollment

4A - 41.1%                32.09%

3A - 25.4%                29.81%

2A - 23.7%                24.81%

1A - 9.8%                  13.12%

 

So as has already been stated, the 4A schools are out doing the enrollment numbers, but it is not as drastic as many believe.

 

Same as it ever was. Check out these posts from 9 and 10 years ago where I was saying the same thing you are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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