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State tournament class statistics to not necessarily incite class wrestling discussion


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Just now, littlevito said:

But if this were actually classed from the beginning of the tournament, I believe the champion for the smaller schools would be different. Would be closer to those teams that fair really well at the team state duals, as teams would probably be moving more qualifiers to state facing 1A and 2A schools.

Yes - if the individual tournament was classed, Silas Allred probably would not have single-handedly won the 1A team title. 

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In all fairness....I think Silas has solidified himself as a pretty special talent regardless of school size.  So with all do respect, I genuinely feel to draw a question about why aren’t more 1A or 2

This whole thread and group of replies has became ridiculous.  I feel that there's a lot of common sense left out of many statements made in this thread.   We just had a kid become a two tim

Let me just throw in here...   TEAM class wrestling = YES INDIVIDUAL class wrestling = NO   How in the wide world of sports did Silas Allred possibly manage to compete at the

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Apologies to @UncleJimmy, as I somehow missed this thread until just now. I am not sure about all of the other rural schools, but in our area, families don't have the luxury of selecting a school based on its wrestling program, or even its academic offerings for that matter. Where I am from, school is often selected based on who a kid is living with in a given semester, what is the easiest place to get them to, etc.

 

Further, it is very easy to take one example and say, "just do what that guy did." To use a basketball analogy (sorry, guys) Mugsy Bogues was a 5'3" NBA basketball player. Does that mean that every basketball coach should tell his shortest guy, "Hey, you should play D1. He did it. What's your excuse?"

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Also, off and on I hear people saying the way for our state to improve is to lift the travel restriction. Probably true...for the teams that can take advantage. Lift the travel restriction and oh boy how the gap between big and small will widen.

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55 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

 

Further, it is very easy to take one example and say, "just do what that guy did." To use a basketball analogy (sorry, guys) Mugsy Bogues was a 5'3" NBA basketball player. Does that mean that every basketball coach should tell his shortest guy, "Hey, you should play D1. He did it. What's your excuse?"


Actually.....kind of, yes.  But not in that articulated way.  You simply help them develop a mindset that breaks the “small town mentality” of “It can never happen to me”.  You encourage them to set their goals ridiculously high....then spill their guts every day to accomplish them.  Urge them to never make excuses, work as hard in life & the classroom as they do in the sport.  Teach them that wins & losses don’t define them....their response does.  Build them up in the reality that they can accomplish anything.

 

And at the end of the day......when/if they fall short of those goals, reiterate to them they haven’t failed.  Encourage them to look around.....because they still will have accomplished more that 98% of everyone else.  And 100% of those who fear failure.

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15 minutes ago, Perseverance said:


Actually.....kind of, yes.  But not in that articulated way.  You simply help them develop a mindset that breaks the “small town mentality” of “It can never happen to me”.  You encourage them to set their goals ridiculously high....then spill their guts every day to accomplish them.  Urge them to never make excuses, work as hard in life & the classroom as they do in the sport.  Teach them that wins & losses don’t define them....their response does.  Build them up in the reality that they can accomplish anything.

 

And at the end of the day......when/if they fall short of those goals, reiterate to them they haven’t failed.  Encourage them to look around.....because they still will have accomplished more that 98% of everyone else.  And 100% of those who fear failure.

 

Like this as an outlook on life. Dislike it as an argument against class wrestling.

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5 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

Like this as an outlook on life. Dislike it as an argument against class wrestling.


I hear you brother.  And for clarity....my comments aren’t meant to be argumentative at all. Just additional perspective from individuals whose weathered the challenges of 1A wrestling, and relentlessly found a way to excel.  But I will say....that above mindset should be worked to be ingrained in the minds of athletes at all levels.  Because in my opinion, where your from, how much money you have, etc...should never be an excuse to not recklessly pursue your passions.

 

And being fully transparent.....we’ve never had tons of money.  In fact, driving different locations for partners hurt the wallet a lot at times.  The numbers dynamic is the biggest “pro” in my mind towards classification. I mean....we couldn’t convince kids to wrestle when we were competing for Team State Championships 3 straight years! True story.  So again....just in my personal experience, I don’t think the opportunity for accolades will solve the problem either.
 

But I can’t stress enough.....I don’t have the answers.  I simply just share what has worked for us, in hopes that other programs/coaches/wrestlers can realize they’re capable of accomplishing anything through effort, discipline, responsibility and accountability.  Because ultimately....I don’t think the IHSAA has any desire to change a thing man.  

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1 hour ago, Galagore said:

 

Further, it is very easy to take one example and say, "just do what that guy did." To use a basketball analogy (sorry, guys) Mugsy Bogues was a 5'3" NBA basketball player. Does that mean that every basketball coach should tell his shortest guy, "Hey, you should play D1. He did it. What's your excuse?"

 

Average height in the NBA is 6'7" - whereas everyone Silas Allred competed against was 195 lbs or less. 

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3 minutes ago, Perseverance said:


I hear you brother.  And for clarity....my comments aren’t meant to be argumentative at all. Just additional perspective from individuals whose weathered the challenges of 1A wrestling, and relentlessly found a way to excel.  But I will say....that above mindset should be worked to be ingrained in the minds of athletes at all levels.  Because in my opinion, where your from, how much money you have, etc...should never be an excuse to not recklessly pursue your passions.

 

And being fully transparent.....we’ve never had tons of money.  In fact, driving different locations for partners hurt the wallet a lot at times.  The numbers dynamic is the biggest “pro” in my mind towards classification. I mean....we couldn’t convince kids to wrestle when we were competing for Team State Championships 3 straight years! True story.  So again....just in my personal experience, I don’t think the opportunity for accolades will solve the problem either.
 

But I can’t stress enough.....I don’t have the answers.  I simply just share what has worked for us, in hopes that other programs/coaches/wrestlers can realize they’re capable of accomplishing anything through effort, discipline, responsibility and accountability.  Because ultimately....I don’t think the IHSAA has any desire to change a thing man.  

 

Yes, I agree on all accounts. What we are discussing here is the difference between addressing an individual and addressing the community at large. You are completely right that the message to an individual is one of rising above obstacles. However, that doesn't mean that we should not still strive for a more equitable field for the community.

 

Also, you are correct that nothing is going to change...in the short term. The people currently in charge of the decision making won't always be in charge of the decision making. When the time comes (and I think eventually it will) that someone in "that room" is open to the idea of classing individual sports, I want our wrestling community to be ready to move on it.

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4 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

 

Average height in the NBA is 6'7" - whereas everyone Silas Allred competed against was 195 lbs or less. 

I don't think he's directly comparing it to size he's comparing the disadvantage. The idea that someone that is 5'3" competing in the NBA is similar to some one coming from a small school and being has accomplished as Allred. The both over come obstacles and it's not common for this 2 situations happen and you can't say that just anyone can accomplish these task. At least that's how I read it and maybe I'm wrong. The point is Allred's accomplishments are out of this world and a testament of his hard work and not just anybody can duplicate what he has done.

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 I agree on a lot of these things. I just watched one of my former wrestlers get into the Hall Of Fame. Cale didn't have it easy by no means. Being a 3 sport athlete. In his best season his team won 2 dual meets. He averaged 6 kids on the team through HS. Don't tell me about working harder or traveling been there done that. There is that everyday workout partner and the endless amount of assistant or volunteer coaches involved. I've been coaching small schools for 30 plus years. It's not been easy but the young men that I have coached  are some of the hardest working wrestlers out there. I have been fortunate enough to have 14 qualifiers and 4 medal winners. 

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1 hour ago, Perseverance said:


Actually.....kind of, yes.  But not in that articulated way.  You simply help them develop a mindset that breaks the “small town mentality” of “It can never happen to me”.  You encourage them to set their goals ridiculously high....then spill their guts every day to accomplish them.  Urge them to never make excuses, work as hard in life & the classroom as they do in the sport.  Teach them that wins & losses don’t define them....their response does.  Build them up in the reality that they can accomplish anything.

 

And at the end of the day......when/if they fall short of those goals, reiterate to them they haven’t failed.  Encourage them to look around.....because they still will have accomplished more that 98% of everyone else.  And 100% of those who fear failure.

 evil on fire GIF 
2 Days in a row I’ve read posts that are on 🔥! Love it 

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30 minutes ago, bbulldog152 said:

I don't think he's directly comparing it to size he's comparing the disadvantage. The idea that someone that is 5'3" competing in the NBA is similar to some one coming from a small school and being has accomplished as Allred. The both over come obstacles and it's not common for this 2 situations happen and you can't say that just anyone can accomplish these task. At least that's how I read it and maybe I'm wrong. The point is Allred's accomplishments are out of this world and a testament of his hard work and not just anybody can duplicate what he has done.

My point was that a 5'3" guy making it in the NBA against the average height of 6'7" is an extreme statistical outlier compared to a person from a small school being able to compete against people that are all the same size. 

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1 hour ago, Perseverance said:


Actually.....kind of, yes.  But not in that articulated way.  You simply help them develop a mindset that breaks the “small town mentality” of “It can never happen to me”.  You encourage them to set their goals ridiculously high....then spill their guts every day to accomplish them.  Urge them to never make excuses, work as hard in life & the classroom as they do in the sport.  Teach them that wins & losses don’t define them....their response does.  Build them up in the reality that they can accomplish anything.

 

And at the end of the day......when/if they fall short of those goals, reiterate to them they haven’t failed.  Encourage them to look around.....because they still will have accomplished more that 98% of everyone else.  And 100% of those who fear failure.

That's outstanding brother.   That's like the 18th best post ever on Indianamat.  That reminds we when John Wooden,  the greatest coach in western  civilization,  and only 2nd to coaches like Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson said to me.  "Things turn out best for the people  who make the best the way things turn out".

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59 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

My point was that a 5'3" guy making it in the NBA against the average height of 6'7" is an extreme statistical outlier compared to a person from a small school being able to compete against people that are all the same size. 

I agree with this statement, however Silas didn't just compete against guys his own weight... He dominated. Every win by pin this season, less than 10 wins in his career didn't end in pin only 2 career losses ranked number 2 in the nation. When he's all said and done who know's what else he's going to accomplish. I'm sure there's not many NCAA all-Americans or National Champs that come from a public school the size of Shanendoah, Both thing's that can be accomplished. I'm not saying both accomplishments are on the same level just saying they're similar ideas.

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Sometimes there is a circumstance where a few parents in a community come together for the common purpose of advancing the abilities of their kids.  Silas has been talked about a lot on this thread, but keep in mind that coming up through the tiny Shenandoah system, they had at one time formed a group of extremely talented wrestlers including both Slivka boys, AJ Black, Hayden Lohrey, and I am sure I am missing some others that Mr Allred could fill in.  I don't know the story of when or how they all got together, but for both large and small schools, I think it is a powerful trend when you see a "wave" of kids around the same age getting after it in the offseason and feeding off of each other's accomplishments.

 

May have been a similar circumstance with Hanover Central.  I can remember Union County had a few seasons with multiple state placers also.

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54 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

Silas is definitely special. He has accomplished more than most will ever dream of. Has there ever been a small school wrestler with his accomplishments before? I personally can't remember anyone close to him. 

Silas is the best wrestler in the  History of Indiana Wrestling.   But I wouldn't put him above Escobedo, Tsirtsis, and Howe.   Those guys were the greatest.   Im saying Mount Rushmore brothers,  Rock N Roll hall of fame level.   Mason Paris, he also is the Indiana greatest wrestler all time.     Oh yea,  whats this got to do with Class wrestling?

 

Class wrestling has its problems,  Yea,  I love giving a lot  awards out for effort.   But you got to look at the big picture, the whole thing is better when its all one family.   Compare it to the Grateful Dead,   some of the members were bigger than others and maybe in a different class.   Jerry Garcia was big, and a huge musician like 4A, but the other members were 1A and 2a.  But you put the band together,  they all contributed and were bigger than the whole, and best of all time.  Yea,  take Ohio,   its parts are better than all the Indiana parts.   But  when you divide them up,  its not as good as Indiana. Ohio is like Creedence Clearwater, the greatest band in history of Western Civilization.  Then John Fogarty leaves,  they're still good,  but not great.  Its  like classed Ohio wrestling.    

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43 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Silas is the best wrestler in the  History of Indiana Wrestling.   But I wouldn't put him above Escobedo, Tsirtsis, and Howe.   Those guys were the greatest.   Im saying Mount Rushmore brothers,  Rock N Roll hall of fame level.   Mason Paris, he also is the Indiana greatest wrestler all time.     Oh yea,  whats this got to do with Class wrestling?

 

Class wrestling has its problems,  Yea,  I love giving a lot  awards out for effort.   But you got to look at the big picture, the whole thing is better when its all one family.   Compare it to the Grateful Dead,   some of the members were bigger than others and maybe in a different class.   Jerry Garcia was big, and a huge musician like 4A, but the other members were 1A and 2a.  But you put the band together,  they all contributed and were bigger than the whole, and best of all time.  Yea,  take Ohio,   its parts are better than all the Indiana parts.   But  when you divide them up,  its not as good as Indiana. Ohio is like Creedence Clearwater, the greatest band in history of Western Civilization.  Then John Fogarty leaves,  they're still good,  but not great.  Its  like classed Ohio wrestling.    

No Way Wow GIF 
we got another @3xStateChamp @MikeTython or @donniebaker on our hands here fellas !  

 

We need Indianamat celebrity poster rankings, classed wrestling poster of course . I’ve would have to ranking them by “Deadliest” 
 

1. Pistol Pete - he’ll shoot you dead 

2. Mike Tython - put on the right son by Phil Collins it’s lights out 

3. Bill Walton - that dude will talk your head off “literally” 

4. Donnie Baker - that mullet will Cut you with a flick of his head . 

Edited by TeamGarcia
Class Rankings Celebrities
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12 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

No Way Wow GIF 
we got another @3xStateChamp @MikeTython or @donniebaker on our hands here fellas !  

 

We need Indianamat poster rankings 

Only if they're classed poster rankings! Small town posters don't have access to the same internet speeds us big city boys got! LOL..

 

BTW..did somebody get you a subscription to MemesRUs for your birthday or what? 

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14 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

No Way Wow GIF 
we got another @3xStateChamp @MikeTython or @donniebaker on our hands here fellas !  

 

We need Indianamat poster rankings 

What is this like the Masked Singer?  This is the Greatest show Ive of all time.   Still that is funny @TeamGarcia,  This is like your're 23rd most funniest post of all time. 

 

 

Masked Singer.jpg

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9 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said:

Only if they're classed poster rankings! Small town posters don't have access to the same internet speeds us big city boys got! LOL..

 

BTW..did somebody get you a subscription to MemesRUs for your birthday or what? 

Joe hooked me up when I took 46k of his Banana stash . TeamGarcia gets Premium GIFS now . Me and Joe, Joe Is Mini Me 😂come here dr evil GIF

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17 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

What is this like the Masked Singer?  This is the Greatest show Ive of all time.   Still that is funny @TeamGarcia,  This is like your're 23rd most funniest post of all time. 

 

 

Masked Singer.jpg

I’d would say it’s my 1,000 funniest post of my 1,348 post . Only 348 of them I was so ..... serious. You got a lot of work ahead of you to even get on my level . 
There is Notorious and @UncleJimmy, I’m #1 of course and he’s a distance #2 

 

 

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3 hours ago, base said:

Sometimes there is a circumstance where a few parents in a community come together for the common purpose of advancing the abilities of their kids.  Silas has been talked about a lot on this thread, but keep in mind that coming up through the tiny Shenandoah system, they had at one time formed a group of extremely talented wrestlers including both Slivka boys, AJ Black, Hayden Lohrey, and I am sure I am missing some others that Mr Allred could fill in.  I don't know the story of when or how they all got together, but for both large and small schools, I think it is a powerful trend when you see a "wave" of kids around the same age getting after it in the offseason and feeding off of each other's accomplishments.

 

May have been a similar circumstance with Hanover Central.  I can remember Union County had a few seasons with multiple state placers also.

I can attest to the fact that Shenandoah had a special group but it wasn’t without hard work, dedication and buy in. My son was the varsity coach, and although he had had success in small doses, he didn’t have solid coaches at the junior high level so the deck was stacked twice against him. Coach Slivka and I stepped in as junior high coaches. The boys were given a vision and we convinced them they could compete and compete at a high level. To re-enforce that we went and wrestled against teams from Warren, Center Grove, Yorktown and the likes and it confirmed what we were “selling”. We focused on basics and fell in line with what the varsity coach was teaching at the high school level. In the end, thru “buy in”, hard work and never being “out of season” we reaped the benefits. It helped to have parents like myself and Coach Slivka that had a vested interest in having a solid team for our boys. We traveled to open rooms in Indy, went to Humphrey’s and opened our room to all-comers, we wrestled in multiple states(all on the cheap) many times having 5-6 kids in one hotel room. The road to success always travels thru hard work, getting “buying in”, implementing a system and good coaches throughout the entire organization.
        Silas is a rare athlete as were a few others within our program but some were not nearly considered athletically gifted. Guys like Josh Gee, Ryan Surguy, Dallas Pugsley worked off season along with Silas, Aj, Hayden and Jordan to get to the level they achieved. We didn’t spend thousands, we carpooled, set up fundraisers to off-set costs and we had fun together. At the end of the day, these boys worked hard, sometimes 4X per week. It didn’t come without them being self motivated, working hard and believing in themselves. I am proud to have been a part of the success we had collectively as a team and coaching staff. 

Edited by RASSLER4LIFE
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20 hours ago, Jcjcjc said:


Aren’t the biggest schools getting bigger populations as they are getting more placers? 
Portage, Fishers, Penn, and all the biggest schools, aren’t they much bigger than in the past while small schools are still small?

I think the growth or lack of growth at schools is different from school to school. I know of some that have grown(Carroll, Garrett) and some that have less kids than in 2000(Dekalb, Bellmont).

 

On 2/26/2020 at 3:59 PM, Jcjcjc said:


The middle isn’t as you describe, since 3 A underperforms. The smallest class does better than 3A in matching its population with qualifiers and placers. 

This probably isn't exactly the best post to quote, but here is the fundamental difference between the two thought processes on this thread.

 

People are in one of the two categories

1. In a single class system the varsity entries should not affected by school size and thus all should have an equal representation at the state finals.
These people see the statistics and say that we need class wrestling.

 

2. In a single class system while "equal" the bigger schools should be having more success because they have more kids to choose from(amongst other advantages).
These people see the statistics and say we do not need class wrestling.

 

I fall into #1 and feel if you are in group #2 you are advocating for a classed environment due to the fact that everyone SHOULD be equal when they step on the mat. However, if you are a varsity athlete at a 4A school you are basically 10X more likely to qualify for state than a varsity athlete at a 1A school.

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